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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Good God, man, if you are not going to have Presley run, against a right-handed closer with an "ehhh" move, one out, 9th inning, down by one run, then when the hell are you going to run?


Well, with Presley's speed and the team's best hitter at the plate, Presley could have potentially scored on a McCutchen XBH rather than taking a chance on Presley getting thrown out and having two outs with a less than impressive line-up hitting behind McCutchen. Not that I don't think it might not have been a wise move to send Presley. But I don't have major issues with the decision.


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:06 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
But I don't have major issues with the decision.

I did because of the chance that Presley steals the base.

If not in that situation, when, exactly?


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:07 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
Good God, man, if you are not going to have Presley run, against a right-handed closer with an "ehhh" move, one out, 9th inning, down by one run, then when the hell are you going to run?


Well, with Presley's speed and the team's best hitter at the plate, Presley could have potentially scored on a McCutchen XBH rather than taking a chance on Presley getting thrown out and having two outs with a less than impressive line-up hitting behind McCutchen. Not that I don't think it might not have been a wise move to send Presley. But I don't have major issues with the decision.

Or Cutch could............

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:10 pm 
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The pitching has been great. What is it an ERA of 2.0 after 4 games-- we'll take that foreever. The hitting is weak-- we knew that plus these are the best pitchers we'll face all season.. AND more coming on this trip.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 pm 
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TheShark wrote:
But I don't have major issues with the decision.


I don't either. I think they are going to have to run for sure this year. However, I'm going to give my best hitter a chance to drive one in a gap and score the runner. He's the guy you have to rely on. It didn't work out today because he had a lousy at bat.

My complaint so far is(and I know it's way too early but what the heck) I don't think I can take a season of watching Tabata hit weak flares to right field. It's great that he hits to the opposite field and all but is that all he will ever do??? Honestly...pull that inside pitch for a change!!!


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:38 pm 
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it is scary that tabata looks bad at the plate and walker looks really bad....GI Jones looks like GI Jane and barmes looks like a serious downgrade to cedeno...it is early but I am not too pleased with what I am seeing from this offense, we simply can't match anybody, but in their defense, hallady, lee, kershaw...


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:45 pm 
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batterup wrote:
it is scary that tabata looks bad at the plate and walker looks really bad....GI Jones looks like GI Jane and barmes looks like a serious downgrade to cedeno...it is early but I am not too pleased with what I am seeing from this offense, we simply can't match anybody, but in their defense, hallady, lee, kershaw...


It's three Cy Young award winners. Nobody really hits these guys so let's examine all of these players at the end of the month and we will have a better idea.

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:00 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Better hitter -- Ray Charles or Clint Barmes?


Here we go . . . JC has his fixation for this year. First it was Cedeno. Then it was Rendon. Now its Barmes. Me . . . I'm far less disappointed thus far with Barmes than I am with certain players who are expected to be contributing significantly with the bat (Jones, Walker, Tabata). If ire is deserved after four games (and I'm not certain that it is), Barmes does not top my list.

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:02 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Better hitter -- Ray Charles or Clint Barmes?


Here we go . . . JC has his fixation for this year. First it was Cedeno. Then it was Rendon. Now its Barmes. Me . . . I'm far less disappointed thus far with Barmes than I am with certain players who are expected to be contributing significantly with the bat (Jones, Walker, Tabata). If ire is deserved after four games (and I'm not certain that it is), Barmes does not top my list.


Well, my friend, I have to direct my frustration SOMEWHERE. And a guy making $5 million this year who starts the season 0 for 12 with 4 strikeouts seems like a nice target.

BARMES SUCKS!


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:20 pm 
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It's 4 games.


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
TheShark wrote:
But I don't have major issues with the decision.

I did because of the chance that Presley steals the base.

If not in that situation, when, exactly?

Actually, since McCutchen was the following hitter, No. 9 would counsel you that having Presley steal in that situation would be a detriment to the team, as it would encourage the pitcher to walk McCutchen in order to pitch to the lesser hitters behind McCutchen. No. 9 would say that having Presley steal would effectively take the bat out of McCutchen's hands, so Presley should have stayed put to allow McCutchen an opportunity to hit.

Of course, in my mind, if the Pirates were truly worse off having Presley on 2nd, Cutch on 1st and McGehee batting, then why didn't the Dodgers recognize this and just walk McCutchen on four pitches? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:44 pm 
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batterup wrote:
it is scary that tabata looks bad at the plate and walker looks really bad....GI Jones looks like GI Jane and barmes looks like a serious downgrade to cedeno...it is early but I am not too pleased with what I am seeing from this offense, we simply can't match anybody, but in their defense, hallady, lee, kershaw...

Worley is pretty good too, even though we beat him.

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
I did because of the chance that Presley steals the base.

If not in that situation, when, exactly?

Actually, since McCutchen was the following hitter, No. 9 would counsel you that having Presley steal in that situation would be a detriment to the team, as it would encourage the pitcher to walk McCutchen in order to pitch to the lesser hitters behind McCutchen. No. 9 would say that having Presley steal would effectively take the bat out of McCutchen's hands, so Presley should have stayed put to allow McCutchen an opportunity to hit.

Of course, in my mind, if the Pirates were truly worse off having Presley on 2nd, Cutch on 1st and McGehee batting, then why didn't the Dodgers recognize this and just walk McCutchen on four pitches? ;)


Because you can take the approach where you don't give McCutchen anything good to hit and hope that he is overanxious and fishes after marginal pitches . . . which is what he did - twice.

The reality of the situation is that stealing Presley in that situation likely takes the bat out of McCutchen's hands and you've got McGehee and Hague (probably Alvarez) to follow. I can see the yin/yang to either strategy and I don't see any particular strategy as being the "no brainer" approach. Personally, I was pulling for the Bucs to try a hit and run in an effort to open up a larger hole somewhere in the infield and to minimize the risk of exactly what happened.

Let's not also lose sight of where the second pitch was located. Up and outside. That would have been a perfect pitch for the Dodgers' catcher to field and attempt to throw out Presely. It was not in a location where McCutchen could do anything with it so, in my mind, the Dodgers catcher did a great job of trying to set up a situation where they could defend against the steal or, alternatively, make McCutchen hit a pitch that he didn't want to hit.

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:16 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Actually, since McCutchen was the following hitter, No. 9 would counsel you that having Presley steal in that situation would be a detriment to the team, as it would encourage the pitcher to walk McCutchen in order to pitch to the lesser hitters behind McCutchen. No. 9 would say that having Presley steal would effectively take the bat out of McCutchen's hands, so Presley should have stayed put to allow McCutchen an opportunity to hit.

Of course, in my mind, if the Pirates were truly worse off having Presley on 2nd, Cutch on 1st and McGehee batting, then why didn't the Dodgers recognize this and just walk McCutchen on four pitches? ;)


Because you can take the approach where you don't give McCutchen anything good to hit and hope that he is overanxious and fishes after marginal pitches . . . which is what he did - twice.

Ah, but then you run the risk of the pitcher throwing a mistake pitch to the Pirates best hitter. Why run that risk if having McCutchen on first and Presley on 2nd is a better situation for the Dodgers?

Unless, of course, having Cutch on 1st and Presley on 2nd is not a better situation for the Dodgers...

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Worley is pretty good too, even though we beat him.

Worley pitched well against the Pirates: 6 IP, 5 H, 1 BB, 5 K's, 1 run allowed.

I think that the failure to throw Pedro out at 1st on his K had more to do with the win than Worley's pitching.


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Ah, but then you run the risk of the pitcher throwing a mistake pitch to the Pirates best hitter. Why run that risk if having McCutchen on first and Presley on 2nd is a better situation for the Dodgers?

Unless, of course, having Cutch on 1st and Presley on 2nd is not a better situation for the Dodgers...


With the way that McGehee is currently hitting, I would be less careful to McCutchen than I would be if Alvarez, Jones or Walker was behind McCutchen. In the latter scenarios, I wouldn't be giving McCutchen anything at all to hit and, if he didn't take the bait and walked, so be it.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:01 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Ah, but then you run the risk of the pitcher throwing a mistake pitch to the Pirates best hitter. Why run that risk if having McCutchen on first and Presley on 2nd is a better situation for the Dodgers?

Unless, of course, having Cutch on 1st and Presley on 2nd is not a better situation for the Dodgers...


With the way that McGehee is currently hitting, I would be less careful to McCutchen than I would be if Alvarez, Jones or Walker was behind McCutchen. In the latter scenarios, I wouldn't be giving McCutchen anything at all to hit and, if he didn't take the bait and walked, so be it.

So whether Presley stole 2nd or not would be inconsequential to the Dodgers? After all, if Presley did steal, he would be doing the Dodgers a favor, right?

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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:09 pm 
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If Presley steals 2nd, the Dodgers are not likely to walk Cutch intentionally. If they do, then an extra base hit that stays in the yard puts them behind.

As a rule, it is a bad idea to put the potential go-ahead run on base with a walk.


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 Post subject: Re: April 10, 2012 Pirates (2-1) at Dodgers (3-1)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
If Presley steals 2nd, the Dodgers are not likely to walk Cutch intentionally. If they do, then an extra base hit that stays in the yard puts them behind.

As a rule, it is a bad idea to put the potential go-ahead run on base with a walk.

Couldn't agree more. I don't see how a successful stolen base could have hurt the Bucs there. My only reservation in sending Presley would be the chance of him getting caught.

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