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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:34 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The mere fact that so many people here are talking about DK's work -- his opinions, his columns from years ago, his beat work -- is proof that he's excellent at his job. 'Nuff said.


People talk about Skip Bayless, too. And Dan Shaugnessy. 'Nuff not said.

By this line of reasoning, if I were a sportswriter and came out with a "Ryan Braun: Why Jews Don't Belong in Sport" post, I'd be doing a bang-up job.


It's not just that, my friend. It's the fact that he's a talented writer, he's not afraid to take on controversial subjects (without being an idiot or a bigot), he's won awards for his journalistic work, and he's both informative and entertaining to read.

Name a better Pittsburgh sports writer.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:35 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
The "pitch framing and other unicorns" tweet, to me, was proof that this guy can't handle being wrong. He reminds me of a certain poster from a certain Steelers board, JC.


In my view, he's wrong about that. But what about that tweet means he can't "handle being wrong"? There are folks in baseball who believe that balls and strikes calls are more random and that research on the subject is flawed. I'm not in that group, but it exists. Those people may be wrong, but it says nothing about whether they can "handle being wrong."


My opinion remains unchanged.


There's a substantive response. Well played.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:05 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:

There's a substantive response. Well played.



What more than "I don't think that's the case" do you want?

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:06 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Name a better Pittsburgh sports writer.



I don't know any. The only time I read DK is when he's linked to on here.

How many Pittsburgh sportswriters are there? Three?

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:10 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

There's a substantive response. Well played.


What more than "I don't think that's the case" do you want?


I just don't understand your claim that his tweet shows he "can't handle being wrong." There are still two schools of thought on pitch framing. Even if he's in the wrong school, that doesn't mean he can't handle being wrong. It just means he's in (at least in my view) the wrong school.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:17 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Name a better Pittsburgh sports writer.



I don't know any. The only time I read DK is when he's linked to on here.

How many Pittsburgh sportswriters are there? Three?


Ed Bouchette, Gerry Dulac, Bill Brink, Joe Starkey, Rob Rossi, Gene Collier, Ron Cook, Dave Molinari, Michael Sanserino, Alan Robinson, Mark Kaboly...

That's just off the top of my head.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:18 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:

There's a substantive response. Well played.


What more than "I don't think that's the case" do you want?


I just don't understand your claim that his tweet shows he "can't handle being wrong." There are still two schools of thought on pitch framing. Even if he's in the wrong school, that doesn't mean he can't handle being wrong. It just means he's in (at least in my view) the wrong school.



Yes, there's a chance that it's all a coincidence. He was highly critical of the signing, someone probably pestered him about it and he responded with that on Twitter.

I'd think that if his response was because he truly didn't believe in pitch framing and all that, he'd say something more respectfully dismissive of the notion. The tone of the tweet, though, led me to believe otherwise. You can explain it away all you want, counsel, but that's how I saw it and how I see it now.

No, I'm not in his head and therefore can't lob huge, biting accusations on a message board...but I'm going to do it anyway!

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:18 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The interesting thing about the speculative and unsupported claim by many here that DK is "on a mission" to get Huntington/Coonelly fired and is "emotional" about the Pirates is that they uniformly ignore counter-evidence.


For me, it comes from sitting for two seasons with the guy as a season ticket holder, and seeing just those aspects of his personality directed at DL, and on a daily basis during games.

Have you had that amount of contact?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:19 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
Name a better Pittsburgh sports writer.



I don't know any. The only time I read DK is when he's linked to on here.

How many Pittsburgh sportswriters are there? Three?


Ed Bouchette, Gerry Dulac, Bill Brink, Joe Starkey, Rob Rossi, Gene Collier, Ron Cook, Dave Molinari, Michael Sanserino, Alan Robinson, Mark Kaboly...

That's just off the top of my head.


I've heard of about 4 of those guys, any all due to links on message boards. Bouchette is terrible in chats, and the others I can't remember reading.

Bouchette gets hammered on the Steelers board, so he must be really good at writing, too.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:21 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Yes, there's a chance that it's all a coincidence. He was highly critical of the signing, someone probably pestered him about it and he responded with that on Twitter.

I'd think that if his response was because he truly didn't believe in pitch framing and all that, he'd say something more respectfully dismissive of the notion. The tone of the tweet, though, led me to believe otherwise. You can explain it away all you want, counsel, but that's how I saw it and how I see it now.

No, I'm not in his head and therefore can't lob huge, biting accusations on a message board...but I'm going to do it anyway!


At least you're honest about it. No worries.

I've had Twitter conversations with the guy, disagreed with him, and still managed to have a fruitful exchange. Perhaps I'm in the minority.

On the issue of pitch framing, though, does anyone have the ability to make a .GIF of Melancon's 2-1 pitch to Braun in the eighth inning last night? It was an absolute thing of beauty. Melancon threw a 92-mph cutter that tailed about 4-5 inches off the outside corner of the plate. Martin subtly, quietly received the ball and brought it back to the corner, getting a strike call and visibly upsetting Braun. The Milwaukee Roid Machine proceeded to strike out on the next pitch.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:22 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
Yes, there's a chance that it's all a coincidence. He was highly critical of the signing, someone probably pestered him about it and he responded with that on Twitter.

I'd think that if his response was because he truly didn't believe in pitch framing and all that, he'd say something more respectfully dismissive of the notion. The tone of the tweet, though, led me to believe otherwise. You can explain it away all you want, counsel, but that's how I saw it and how I see it now.

No, I'm not in his head and therefore can't lob huge, biting accusations on a message board...but I'm going to do it anyway!


At least you're honest about it. No worries.

I've had Twitter conversations with the guy, disagreed with him, and still managed to have a fruitful exchange. Perhaps I'm in the minority.

On the issue of pitch framing, though, does anyone have the ability to make a .GIF of Melancon's 2-1 pitch to Braun in the eighth inning last night? It was an absolute thing of beauty. Melancon threw a 92-mph cutter that tailed about 4-5 inches off the outside corner of the plate. Martin subtly, quietly received the ball and brought it back to the corner, getting a strike call and visibly upsetting Braun. The Milwaukee Roid Machine proceeded to strike out on the next pitch.



I remember that exact pitch. I've noticed it a lot this season.


Also noticed, in the vein of I believe one of No. 9's recent post, Fort "losing" some of those strike calls.

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Last edited by SUPERCHARGED APE on Thu May 16, 2013 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:24 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The interesting thing about the speculative and unsupported claim by many here that DK is "on a mission" to get Huntington/Coonelly fired and is "emotional" about the Pirates is that they uniformly ignore counter-evidence.


For me, it comes from sitting for two seasons with the guy as a season ticket holder, and seeing just those aspects of his personality directed at DL, and on a daily basis during games.

Have you had that amount of contact?

ZM


No. But you're also interpreting a lot of stuff that he does not include in his columns. Also, when you sat near him, Huntington and Coonelly were not in charge of the Pirates. So, really, you have nothing to add to the idea that DK is "on a mission" to get Huntington/Coonelly fired based on your personal interactions with the man.

I'm just wondering why DK goes out of his way to praise moves made by Huntington/Coonelly if he wants them fired. Seems weird.

All I've seen from DK on the idea of Huntington/Coonelly being fired is this: If H/C preside over a Pirates team this year that competes for the playoffs into September, their jobs are safe. If they don't, they'll probably be canned. That's it.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:29 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
I've heard of about 4 of those guys, any all due to links on message boards. Bouchette is terrible in chats, and the others I can't remember reading.

Bouchette gets hammered on the Steelers board, so he must be really good at writing, too.


He's the beat guy. They always get discussed a lot. My point on DK is that he's a columnist who writes about a bunch of different subjects and generates broad discussion. People are interested in what he writes because of his presentation and the fact that he's good at writing.

People read Bouchette because he's the beat guy and he has a lot of "ins" with the Steeler brass, but he writes like my three-year-old.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:17 pm 
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I would never claim that Kovacevic isn't a good writer. He is.

My issues involve his advocacy . . . and that's something with which I have a little bit of experience.
Being a good writer does not equate to being a well-reasoned advocate or articulating well-reasonsed opinions. Being eloquent with prose does not equate to balance or lacking an agenda. The ability to articulate in words does not mean that one doesn't shade the facts to fit the nicely articulated piece.

My history with the folks here at UPPMB (and its previous iteration) extends more than a few years before you arrived. There is a long history of people taking issue with Bob Smizik's opinions and conclusions when he was a columnist and when he joined the blogosphere. There were stretches of time that MBs of data were consumed with Smizik related commentary.

Writing ability and style? Kovacevic >>>>>>>>>>>>> Smizik. No doubt. Every day and twice on Sunday.

Substantive advocacy? Much, much closer call between the two. My personal opinion is that Kovacevic knows that there is a market for anti-management writing and, in large part, he panders to that market. Just like Smizik. Kovacevic is just more eloquent and articulate in doing so.

I very rarely go the PPG site anymore. The Pirates coverage is, IMO, quite weak. I only go to the TR site because the day-to-day coverage is somewhat better. But, to be frank, I find the pieces posted on Pirates Prospects to be much more thoughtful, well-researched and balanced that what I read in the T-R. I find Bietempfl's reporting to be thin on substance. I read Kovacevic occassionally but I also listen to Hannity every once in a while and Limbaugh every once in a while - just to hear their latest rantings.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Bucco Boy has both professional experience in the industry and personal experience upon which he can render extremely well-founded opinions.

J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
His job is to sell newspapers and get web traffic so in a way you are correct. But from a ethical journalistic standpoint, you are wrong. He has let it get personal. He's not the first and he won't be the last, but you can compare it to the baseball writers who don't vote a player into the all-star game because they didn't like the person or he was a bad interview or they had a confrontation. His job is to be balanced and look at situations without bias. Yes, he can have an opinion, but like many have mentioned, he is not using factual information and he is selling half-truths. IMO, his ego and passion has gotten in the way of his otherwise good journalistic abilities.


Questioning DK's ethics? That's a serious charge, bucco boy.

Letting it get personal? That's also a serious charge.

Not using factual information? Ditto.

You are not inside DK's head and you don't know what he deems "personal" and what he deems just part of the job. You're making suppositions based on a limited view. Do you know what that amounts to? Using "half-truths" to jump to conclusions. As someone in the journalism business, bucco boy, I would expect better of you.

The only time I've seen DK emotional in his writing is when he is defending a source or a piece of information given to him. That's it.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:23 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
His job is to sell newspapers and get web traffic so in a way you are correct. But from a ethical journalistic standpoint, you are wrong. He has let it get personal. He's not the first and he won't be the last, but you can compare it to the baseball writers who don't vote a player into the all-star game because they didn't like the person or he was a bad interview or they had a confrontation. His job is to be balanced and look at situations without bias. Yes, he can have an opinion, but like many have mentioned, he is not using factual information and he is selling half-truths. IMO, his ego and passion has gotten in the way of his otherwise good journalistic abilities.


Questioning DK's ethics? That's a serious charge, bucco boy.

Letting it get personal? That's also a serious charge.

Not using factual information? Ditto.

You are not inside DK's head and you don't know what he deems "personal" and what he deems just part of the job. You're making suppositions based on a limited view. Do you know what that amounts to? Using "half-truths" to jump to conclusions. As someone in the journalism business, bucco boy, I would expect better of you.

The only time I've seen DK emotional in his writing is when he is defending a source or a piece of information given to him. That's it.


You really don't think it is personal between him and the front office?

And you keep referring to how talented a writer he is, which I won't necessarily disagree, but I will throw this out there: If he is so good, why is he stuck writing just in the Pittsburgh market?

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:25 pm 
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I wholly agree with you about Pirates Prospects. But, to be fair, that site is solely focused on the Pirates, while the Trib tries to follow all Pittsburgh-related sports. I think Brink does an OK job as beat writer at the P-G, but I find Cook's and Collier's baseball-related columns lacking.

In my view, no one is covering the breadth of stuff that DK is on a weekly basis, which means his baseball stuff isn't going to be nearly as deep as it used to be. He occasionally strikes a solid chord in his morning blog, but he's been focusing on the Penguins lately and hasn't had many in-depth columns on the Pirates. His Penguins stuff has been stellar. I'm looking forward to the time period after the Pens win the Cup (fingers crossed) when DK can focus more on baseball. I'll be interested in his take on the 2013 Pirates at that point.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:28 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
You really don't think it is personal between him and the front office?

And you keep referring to how talented a writer he is, which I won't necessarily disagree, but I will throw this out there: If he is so good, why is he stuck writing just in the Pittsburgh market?


You read his stuff, bucco boy. You know how much DK absolutely LOVES Pittsburgh. It's where he chooses to be. Could he make it in a bigger market? Absolutely. But he wants to live in Pittsburgh. And he can be great at what he does at the confluence.

And no, I don't think it's personal. The only time I've read a DK piece that appears "emotional" is when his sources or information are questioned. Then he gets personally involved. But his criticisms of the front office are not unlike my criticisms or the criticisms voiced by many posters on this board. It's not personal between me and the front office, but I can still criticize them with passionate rhetoric.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:41 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
No. But you're also interpreting a lot of stuff that he does not include in his columns. Also, when you sat near him, Huntington and Coonelly were not in charge of the Pirates. So, really, you have nothing to add to the idea that DK is "on a mission" to get Huntington/Coonelly fired based on your personal interactions with the man.


No, it was DL, but the pattern and obsession with what he considers incompetence are one and the same. You do realize the Judge saved his job at the PPG during the whole outfield banner calling for the GM ouster, right?

The names change, the approach does not.

Quote:
I'm just wondering why DK goes out of his way to praise moves made by Huntington/Coonelly if he wants them fired. Seems weird.


And, these praised moves would include just what, in the past year or so? The Snider trade? The Wandy trade? The whole "going all in" rants? The Martin signing? The Loriano signing?

Quote:
All I've seen from DK on the idea of Huntington/Coonelly being fired is this: If H/C preside over a Pirates team this year that competes for the playoffs into September, their jobs are safe. If they don't, they'll probably be canned. That's it.


No, that is not it, as is quite adequately posited on this board. That is his fall back position if and when the Pirates succeed so he can claim to be fair and objective.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:47 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
...I very rarely go the PPG site anymore. The Pirates coverage is, IMO, quite weak. I only go to the TR site because the day-to-day coverage is somewhat better. But, to be frank, I find the pieces posted on Pirates Prospects to be much more thoughtful, well-researched and balanced that what I read in the T-R. I find Bietempfl's reporting to be thin on substance. I read Kovacevic occassionally but I also listen to Hannity every once in a while and Limbaugh every once in a while - just to hear their latest rantings.


You might want to look a bit more at the T-R now that they've hired Travis Sawchuck. Really am enjoying his blog on the Pirates right now. He does a nice job of blending old and new to discuss the Bucs. Looks like a winner to me.

ZM

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