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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:19 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Do you want DK to admit he is wrong about the Martin signing? Do you want an entire article dedicated to the apology to management, stating that he is wrong?


I don't want anything from him. Just like I don't want anything from Keith Olbermann, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh or Rachel Maddow. Or Bob Smizik. If all he does is throw out opinions to be provocative, then I don't find him credible. I find that to be more along the lines of pandering.

I like this quote from Theodore Roosevelt: "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

He can use words like "insane," "abyssmal," "ridiculous," etc. to stir the pot and fire up the loyalist but . . . in the end . . . he's a writer. Nothing more, nothing less. His opinion is no more valid than mine or yours. He simply has a more visible soap box and more ready access to the masses. That doesn't make him smarter or more "right." And . . . in this age, a person expressing righteous indignation and calling out others for being stupid or worthless will result in similar allegations when the "know-it-all" who smugly professes superior intellect is . . . :shock: . . . . wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:34 pm 
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DK's not a critic; he's a sports writer. That entails writing columns that profess opinions. Some of his opinions will be right. Some of his opinions will be wrong. But they're all based on DK's substantial knowledge of Pittsburgh sports, its teams, those teams' owners, the players, and the fans. That's why he's so popular, not because all of his opinions are controversial.

DK writes about the Riverhounds, the Olympics, hockey, football, baseball, and a panoply of other sports and events. People read his stuff because he loves doing it and, generally, loves what he writes about. His ability is unquestioned -- it ain't easy to win a beat writer award from Baseball America when you cover the Pirates.

Can he be condescending or caustic at times? Sure. But he spends a lot of time interacting with Pittsburgh fans who are passionate and unreasonable. You're going to develop some dismissive sayings if you deal with those people as often as he does.

Is he always right? Of course not. And he would be the first to admit that.

Is he a good writer worth reading? Absolutely. The breadth of his coverage and the depth of his knowledge of Pittsburgh sports makes him probably the best current sports writer in the city.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Yeah but JC, he was wrong about Martin so he sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 1:33 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Yeah but JC, he was wrong about Martin so he sucks.


C'mon IA. It's more than that and you know it. I've been writing about his change in attitude ever since his overreaction to the Nate McClouth trade. His dislike of Huntington and Coonelly is ridiculously transparent. His coverage of "Hoka Hey" evolved like a chameleon walking from brown bark onto a green leaf after his comments were called out by those who also had knowledge of the situation. He nearly lost his mind when management didn't trade one of the big 3 chips (Cole, Marte or Taillon) down the stretch last year. He lashes out at anyone who dares to question his conclusions or opinions. He has openly mocked Huntington's drafts this year and blames the lack of depth on poor drafting - yet he has yet to point out what other teams have done better than Huntington. He claims that he's done with the Hoka Hey thing but leads off a chat within the last couple of weeks with that saying. He tweets that the Pirates are the only baseball third-class citizen in any city in the US and is dissolve of any positive development. As they won 7 of 10, he said they could not maintain their record because of RS/RA but failed to point out that, under that formula, the Bucs were on an 87 win pace.

The man has writing skills but his success seems to have created no small amount of self-importance and haughtiness. I have an entire wall at my house and half a wall at my office filled with books about baseball and have read a huge array of writers over the years - both in books and in the newspaper. He has adopted an approach that seems to be pervasive in today's media. It's more about selling an attitude to the masses than accuracy, objectiveness or balance.

As for admitting his mistakes, I'm still waiting for his acknowledgement that he grossly overreacted to the McClouth trade, was dead wrong about the decision to trade Hanrahan, that perhaps management's focus on Melancon's peripherals was more accurate than his repeated clamoring about Melancon's ERA, that Marte, Cole and Taillon are all demonstrating that keeping them looks to be a good move, that trading key assets for Hunter Pence or Shane Victorino was probably not a wise move, that Hoka Hey was not 5% the issue that he made it out to be and - finally - he missed wide of the mark on Martin. He admitted being dead wrong about Karstens coming back but - really - what choice did he have? He gave an absolute statement and it was 100% wrong. If anything, Karstens' health has only further bolstered the wisdom of Huntington's refusal to go to arb with him.

DK's no Smizik but he is - IMO - heading in that direction. But he'll be a better writer than Smizik. Always.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:48 pm 
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PirateParrot wrote:
IA Pirate wrote:
Signings like Bedard, Diaz, Barmes, Vasquez, Overbay, Barajas, etc cost the Pirates valuable money that could have been used elsewhere.

Aki Iwamura is offended by this statement!

Makes me wonder if the 1.5 million they are paying Macdonald isn't a factor in them leaning to keep him on the roster.

Really? You haven't learned anything by watching them cut Bedard, Diaz, Vasquez, Overbay, or Morris get cut?

Quote:
I have, and will continue to admit, I was wrong about the Martin signing. I've seen enough to see that his defense is such a huge upgrade over anything we've seen here for 25 years. I think he will sustain a decent pace offensively as well.

As for wanting DK to admit he was wrong...there is too much of a feeling around here that some are smarter than others and they seek acknowledgement of it(This is not directed at you No. 9 for the record and it is just my opinion). DK just writes a column, and this is just a message board...shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't give a hoot whether or not DK admits he was wrong. I just want him to stop writing like a propaganda artist leading a campaign to get the current management fired.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:54 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Yeah but JC, he was wrong about Martin so he sucks.

Oh bullshit, IA. Go back and read his article "proving" that David Littlefield drafted better than Neal Huntington has. I would be ashamed to sign my name to such a collection of falsehoods, half truths and misleading numbers. He's pissed off at Huntington and has made it his business to get him run out of town. He has little credibility left when writing about the Pirates, and none at all when writing about Pirates management.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:18 pm 
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Falsehoods? Campaign to get the current management team fired?

You guys are funny. Adorable, even.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Dejan's job (or rather, his objective) is to pander to the lowest common denominator of Pittsburgh sports fan. It's unfortunate that it's come to that, as I used to like reading him, but he's little more than somebody who writes based on emotion and not logic. Ultimately, that leads to sensationalism, which is certainly evident in Dejan's writings of late.

He completely lost me as a reader at last year's trade deadline. Taking the entitled stance that "this team has been mismanaged for 20 years they OWE us a winning season" is fine...misinformed, but fine. Crucifying this management team for NOT trading away assets on a non-contending team (and thus continuing the pattern of mismanagement) is not. You can't take a management group to task for mismanaging a franchise, then take them to task again when they DO manage themselves properly. It's one or the other.

That's a) an agenda b) a complete lack of understanding of the sport you're covering or c) purely floating out a column that will drive views and attention. That's at best. At worst, it's a combination of those things. He's devolved into a hack in recent years, which is a shame for Pittsburgh sports coverage. Smizik and Cook are bad enough.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:37 pm 
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As I always say whenever these exhausting debates over DK are brought up, I have never read him much outside of his days as the beat reporter for the Post-Gazette, which even then had nothing to do with the fact that it was DK in that position, it was just that in the pre-social media days it was always a good source for up to date news, line-up postings, etc. And I did think he excelled in that position and was a talented writer. When it comes to the anti-FO stuff, I do know that Huntington directly criticized DK for false reporting when DK posted an article that John Russell was on the hot seat and verge of being fired when that wasn't the case. Huntington, as I think any GM would to protect their manager in the case that that wasn't true, made some comment to the extent of "maybe it should be him who should be fired". After that happened, I paid attention to a few of DK's columns/articles directly after and you could tell that he without a doubt took it personally and had an overall tone change to his pieces. And I'm sure a lot of people would have including myself if such criticisms were made. Although, it would simultaneously also be the author's job to take fault if they published bad information as well rather than being bitter about being called out on such. I guess my point is just that I don't see this brought up much in the DK debates, but to me it's a pretty objective example of if you were to try to come to an example of him having a certain attitude shift or however you want to word it.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Dejan acted like a spoiled, petulant child when something didn't go his way? Based on his current writings and stories of his behavior in the pressbox, this is a complete and utter shock!

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:52 pm 
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The mere fact that so many people here are talking about DK's work -- his opinions, his columns from years ago, his beat work -- is proof that he's excellent at his job. 'Nuff said.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:13 am 
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His job is to sell newspapers and get web traffic so in a way you are correct. But from a ethical journalistic standpoint, you are wrong. He has let it get personal. He's not the first and he won't be the last, but you can compare it to the baseball writers who don't vote a player into the all-star game Hall of Fame because they didn't like the person or he was a bad interview or they had a confrontation. His job is to be balanced and look at situations without bias. Yes, he can have an opinion, but like many have mentioned, he is not using factual information and he is selling half-truths. IMO, his ego and passion has gotten in the way of his otherwise good journalistic abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:43 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The mere fact that so many people here are talking about DK's work -- his opinions, his columns from years ago, his beat work -- is proof that he's excellent at his job. 'Nuff said.


So . . . I trust that we can apply the same line of reasoning with respect to Bob Smizik's writings, correct? Lots of posts about his writings. Ergo, he must be "excellent at his job."

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:20 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
The mere fact that so many people here are talking about DK's work -- his opinions, his columns from years ago, his beat work -- is proof that he's excellent at his job. 'Nuff said.



People talk about Skip Bayless, too. And Dan Shaugnessy. 'Nuff not said.

By this line of reasoning, if I were a sportswriter and came out with a "Ryan Braun: Why Jews Don't Belong in Sport" post, I'd be doing a bang-up job.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 am 
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The "pitch framing and other unicorns" tweet, to me, was proof that this guy can't handle being wrong. He reminds me of a certain poster from a certain Steelers board, JC.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:23 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
His job is to sell newspapers and get web traffic so in a way you are correct. But from a ethical journalistic standpoint, you are wrong. He has let it get personal. He's not the first and he won't be the last, but you can compare it to the baseball writers who don't vote a player into the all-star game because they didn't like the person or he was a bad interview or they had a confrontation. His job is to be balanced and look at situations without bias. Yes, he can have an opinion, but like many have mentioned, he is not using factual information and he is selling half-truths. IMO, his ego and passion has gotten in the way of his otherwise good journalistic abilities.


Questioning DK's ethics? That's a serious charge, bucco boy.

Letting it get personal? That's also a serious charge.

Not using factual information? Ditto.

You are not inside DK's head and you don't know what he deems "personal" and what he deems just part of the job. You're making suppositions based on a limited view. Do you know what that amounts to? Using "half-truths" to jump to conclusions. As someone in the journalism business, bucco boy, I would expect better of you.

The only time I've seen DK emotional in his writing is when he is defending a source or a piece of information given to him. That's it.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:25 am 
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No. 9 wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
The mere fact that so many people here are talking about DK's work -- his opinions, his columns from years ago, his beat work -- is proof that he's excellent at his job. 'Nuff said.


So . . . I trust that we can apply the same line of reasoning with respect to Bob Smizik's writings, correct? Lots of posts about his writings. Ergo, he must be "excellent at his job."


You're equating the amount of discussion on this board about DK with the amount of discussion about Smizik? Really? That's a seriously misleading comparison, No. 9. Numerous posters (including you) start threads about DK, reference material he wrote years ago, and continually discuss him in threads that don't even involve his columns. It's pervasive. I haven't seen a poster link to and discuss a Smizik piece in months.

Try not to be misleading, my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:27 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
The "pitch framing and other unicorns" tweet, to me, was proof that this guy can't handle being wrong. He reminds me of a certain poster from a certain Steelers board, JC.


In my view, he's wrong about that. But what about that tweet means he can't "handle being wrong"? There are folks in baseball who believe that balls and strikes calls are more random and that research on the subject is flawed. I'm not in that group, but it exists. Those people may be wrong, but it says nothing about whether they can "handle being wrong."


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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:29 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
The "pitch framing and other unicorns" tweet, to me, was proof that this guy can't handle being wrong. He reminds me of a certain poster from a certain Steelers board, JC.


In my view, he's wrong about that. But what about that tweet means he can't "handle being wrong"? There are folks in baseball who believe that balls and strikes calls are more random and that research on the subject is flawed. I'm not in that group, but it exists. Those people may be wrong, but it says nothing about whether they can "handle being wrong."




My opinion remains unchanged.

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 Post subject: Re: May 12, 2013 Pirates (20-16) at Mets (14-19)
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:32 am 
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The interesting thing about the speculative and unsupported claim by many here that DK is "on a mission" to get Huntington/Coonelly fired and is "emotional" about the Pirates is that they uniformly ignore counter-evidence. There are numerous articles in which DK has lauded moves made by the PBC's front office -- including the A.J. Burnett acquisition and the Wandy Rodriguez acquisition. If DK was "emotional" and "on a mission" to get that front office removed, he could have easily pointed to Burnett's struggles in New York and lamented the loss of Robbie Grossman (one of the few high-OBP prospects in the Pirates' system). Indeed, there were several posters on this board who criticized both moves. Personally, I didn't think Burnett would work out (while I liked the Rodriguez acquisition). I was wrong about Burnett. He's been amazingly effective.

But the posters portraying DK as "emotional" and "on a mission" to get Huntington/Coonelly fired don't mention the counter-evidence. They ignore it. They misleadlingly link to and post about DK's criticisms of the PBC's moves without noting his support of certain of those moves.

You know what I call that? Misleading. Using half-truths.


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