Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:45 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Stock Market
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:00 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
What a crazy week for the market. I don't have much but I sure have a lot less tonight. These two days have been terrible for me but also for everyone and our country.

I wish I had some ready cash right now. Buying now would be gutsy but what a chance to make money. If you believe in our country, you gotta think it will be coming back.

I'm sorry, but I can't resist the temptation to talk about the need for regulation.
We decided in 1980 and since that we needed to get government off business and individuals backs and let them make some money. That was and is the mantra of the Republican Party. And for years now John McCain has been in the lead of the anti-regulation bunch.

It's neat to see those same people say 'well maybe we need a little regulation to protect us from unethical financial folks.' Even the Chamber is calling for it.

Of course McCain now says he will stop those bad guys by regulating them, cause we need government (all of a sudden) to look over their shoulder and protect us. The fact is that he has a long, long record of calling for more and more de-regulation. As late as this year in March and April he was singing that song. There is just no way he can run away from that record. And some of you want to put him in charge of our country?

Additionally, he and the Republican Party has been for years saying that the less government we have the better. Amazing that all Americans are now calling for more government. I guess it's not the enemy that has been suggested by the "let's get rid of government" bunch.

If you live long enough you might see the right ideas in control of America.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:16 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:46 am
Posts: 3520
Location: Economy, PA
There is at least one American who is most assuredly not calling for more government.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:18 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:26 pm
Posts: 3006
Ralphie wrote:
There is at least one American who is most assuredly not calling for more government.


Make that 2.

I've never understood the argument that whenever something goes wrong, the solution is to get the government involved.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:11 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:22 pm
Posts: 2495
3


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4088
Location: Zelienople, PA
My lord, calling the financial markets "unregulated". They are regulated. Ridiculously regulated. Now, if one argues that we have a 1930's regulatory market for 2008 environment, well then yeah.

But, geez folks, how can one claim its a free market mess when the market is wholly controlled by a central bank that controls the cost of money? Central banks are a prime tenant of command and control economies.

To me, this one is easy. Fannie and Freddie were two quasi-governmental agencies that had the complete backing and guarantee of the federal goverment. They got money at below cost to the private markets, and had a mandate to make sure that people who didn't qualify for standard loans, got them. Kind of a nice idea in 1979 when it all started as FHA and was restriced to the little guy.

But, hey, in 1992- 1994, the Clinton admin made it a point to call any bank that dared to deny loans to credit unworthy folks as "racists" and "red-liners". Probably true to some degree, sometimes, but this put Fannie and Freddie on steroids with regard to making easy money. Private banks had to follow suite or be left behind, or called racist.

As bad loans quite naturally piled up, it seems that Fannie and Freddie made up more and more esoteric loans that were used as hedge funds to offset the risk of the... as one could expect... bad loans piling up from uncreditworthy folks. Everyone had to follow suit because of F&F's size and access to cheap money from the central bank. Not to mention that when Wall St sees a chance at easy money, they don't wait around for it to get hard to get.

Now, I do know that in 2004, or 2005, Larry Sockman (sp?) (Bush's oversight guy for F&F) warned the administration that this was coming at some time down the road. Clinton may, or may not have had the same info, I don't know. The Bush adminstration did approach congress in 2005 and 2006 about reigning in F&F, but were blocked by Dodd and Frank's committees.

The result seems to be that the Fed tried to make a softer landing by making money cheap, cheaper, and cheaper still.

It may have worked. If only this segment (i.e. a few bank houses that were poorly run) fall and the bad notes get put into a liquidation fund like the S&T's were in the 1980's, I would expect the market to recover. Losing 1000 points in this market isn't much at all, really. It remains to be seen if its temporary or not though. Heck, a couple of the better run houses like Goldman Sachs are posting profits!

Jim Kramer seems to think its all but over and that the correction is about done and complete. I can buy what he says as he's been right about this market and what would happen for the last couple years.

I'm with the transparency crowd. The regulators need to do what they are supposed to do. You don't need a myriad new regulations, just be able to transparently show what is happening so that the crooks or imbiciles that run some of the houses can be seen by all.

Oh, and hold congressional oversight responsible.

Oh, and BTW, two of the most culpable persons responsible for this mess, Jim Johnson (Fannie) and Faine (Freddie) are BHO's chief financial advisors. Further, it was McCain in 2005 that proposed regulatory reform of F&F to reduce taxpayer exposure to the risk. Its on the record, and he was voted down by all Dems, including Obama and a few of his own party.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4088
Location: Zelienople, PA
Double post

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:10 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
ZM- seems that you have confused some of your history lesson in your attempt to hold the Democrats resposibile for F&F lack of suppervision.

Who controlled Congress in 2005 and 2006? You indicate the committees were under Democrats. You are a much more knowledgeable guy then that. You know that the chair was Republican in both houses and the majority of members were of the same party. So, if indeed Bush wanted more over-sight, which I doubt, he was blocked by his own Party.

Let's get serious here. The people who live by less government are Republicans. That includes less supervision of everything from banking to investing to business combinations, to the SEC, and all else. Well, without someone overlooking these people, they did what many do, they twisted things so that they got more and the unknowing invester got less. That's why we have laws. Please, there is no evidence that McCain or Bush wanted more over-sight until this mess we find ourself in now. McCain in speeches in both March and April of this year called for less regulation and now insists he wants more.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:16 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
BTW, John McCain thiinks that we need more regulation because these theives on Wall Street have taken advantage of Americans. If you don't agree, watch his last two or three days of speeches. If they are already regulated enough as you state, it must be difficult for you to support such a candidate.

Wonder what Palin thinks aboout this subject? Wonder if she ever has thought about it? Wonder what her handlers are teaching her right now about finance? Ah yes, she can see Russia from Alaska.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7203
This banking and stock market crisis and the price of oil...Looks like Bin Laden's plans and goals might have been accomplished...

I'm glad Mission Accomplished in Iraq was well worth getting them terrorists...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Blaming the woes of Wall Street on what happened in the 90's totally misses the reason why firms like Bear Sterns, Lehman, AIG, and Merryl fell as hard as they did: they were way too heavily invested in risky financial products, like credit-default swaps and sub-prime mortgage-backed securities. It's what can happen when greed in the marketplace exceeds fear in the marketplace.

If anyone in government is to blame, it is the current administration and its subordinate adminstrative agencies for not enforcing regulations at all, and now we taxpayers will have to pay the price as the federal government bails out AIG and the rest of the finance industry, regardless of who wins this next election. (That's right: even if McCain wins, taxes are going up.) But the most blame falls on the investment firms who leveraged themselves to death, as they apparently loved the color green more than they feared the color red.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4088
Location: Zelienople, PA
Willton wrote:
Blaming the woes of Wall Street on what happened in the 90's totally misses the reason why firms like Bear Sterns, Lehman, AIG, and Merryl fell as hard as they did: they were way too heavily invested in risky financial products, like credit-default swaps and sub-prime mortgage-backed securities. It's what can happen when greed in the marketplace exceeds fear in the marketplace.

.


Why were they there?

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:56 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
ZelieMike wrote:
Willton wrote:
Blaming the woes of Wall Street on what happened in the 90's totally misses the reason why firms like Bear Sterns, Lehman, AIG, and Merryl fell as hard as they did: they were way too heavily invested in risky financial products, like credit-default swaps and sub-prime mortgage-backed securities. It's what can happen when greed in the marketplace exceeds fear in the marketplace.

.


Why were they there?

ZM

Why were who where?

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4088
Location: Zelienople, PA
Why were the companies you cite, there. Why were they investing in those types of risky loans?

To substitute, I'm not trying to lay this at any one person's, or admins door. There is plenty of lax oversight to go around in both the Clinton and Bush administrations.

My arguement is primarily that in a free market that this wouldn't have happened, because a free market would not tolerate the development of subprime loans. At least not without the capital to back it up.

There was a reason the banker's motto was 3, 6, and 3 before the FHA was formed, and the government interjected itself into the money markets and started contolling the cost of money in mortgages.

To my mind, all the "deregulation" that is being espoused as "the problem" today, was mostly an attempt to stave off the inevitable posi-scheme that was subprime by allowing the holders of notes to try to develop hedge funds to underwrite the bad notes.

But, that is from an untrained eye point of view.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:28 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
ZM-- I don't claim expertise either. I do know that free markets existed in the 1880s and look what happened. The Age of Robber Barons was the result of government not being involved. It is easy to see why. Those with power and money created monopolies or co-operation so as to artifically set prices higher then the market would have. The result was of course huge profits for the few and much misery for the rest of society.
Enter Teddy Roosevelt and the Progressives. That led to a great deal of government intervention and protection for the average American. Another word for it is REGULATION. Free markets don't account for those able to manipulate them for unfair and unethical purposes. I know many hate to think of it but government is necessary for a free market to continue.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 WWW  YIM  Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
Posts: 4088
Location: Zelienople, PA
You mean Teddy the Republican POTUS?

Of course government has a role in oversight. One could easily argue that the Robber Barons were the result not of a free market, but as you say, corruption and manipulation.

Again, what was the finanicial institution of that time? A central bank making money that could at its whim, distort the market. The last POTUS who forcefully and emphatically tried to eliminate the central bank and put the free into the market, was McKinely.

I think Teddy decided to stay alive. :D

Teddy actually used government not to regulate, but to eliminate monopolies and to CREATE a freer market where the consumer would benefit.

FDR was the first one to really start heavy regulatory oversight, and most historians will tell you that he only extended the depression long beyond its true length and only war production brought us out of depression.

At least the Robber Barons left behind an oil industry, a steel industry, railroads, boats, ... you name it, they built it and left it behind for us.

ZM

_________________
Someone tell Votto... rbis are good


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Stock Market
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:16 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
The real point that I was trying to make is that without government regulation and protection, the free market will be destroyed by the greed of man. So, those who advocate less government open us up to destruction of the very thing that they want to protect and enhance- the free market.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits