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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Jeremy, baby, it seems to me that you're the one who has problems with temper.

But that's fine. Agree with me or not; I don't care. Either way, life is good. You cling to your opinions. I'll just continue taking my instructions from Rush Limbaugh.

Bye now. :)



You do that buddy. Keep listening to a drug addicted college dropout. Talk about a role model for today's youth.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:58 am 
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Bob--- please tell me that you were just having some fun at Jeremy's expense. You aren't a Rush guy are you? I can't even discuss things with anyone who thinks that he has any answers for anyone. The man got fame by hating Clinton and his wife, and he continues to preach his brand of hate every day. I used to listen just to laugh but gave up when I realized he had nothing of value to add to the conversation.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:45 am 
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Rush is a fellow Missourian. He's proof that we're all ornery as mules!


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:33 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Bob--- please tell me that you were just having some fun at Jeremy's expense. You aren't a Rush guy are you? I can't even discuss things with anyone who thinks that he has any answers for anyone. The man got fame by hating Clinton and his wife, and he continues to preach his brand of hate every day. I used to listen just to laugh but gave up when I realized he had nothing of value to add to the conversation.


He might say he's not, but so in the last month or so everything he's written here could be more or less pulled from a Limbaugh transcript.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:17 am 
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BBF wrote:

Confused as to what you are saying here. Who's land is it, would you say, then?


Sorry if I was. I've said all along that going the "Historical Right" path just won't cut it. They area we are talking about was inhabited, sparsely, by those groups I cite. They were all under the Ottoman Empire, and later, British Colonial Rule in "Trans-Jordan" or Palestine.

The great immagrations to West Trans-Jordan in the late 1800's by Jews from the European Pogroms increased their population, and once the Ottomans and British, the rulers at the time, established an area West of the Jordan for the Jewish population, they started to transform the area into something you see today.

There was no Palestine and Jordan at the time. It was all a governing district called Jordan or Trans-Jordan.

Even after the Balfour proclimations, the Palestine population of today were considered Jordanians of the East Bank, and the Jews were consider Jordanians of the West Bank. There was no kicking one side or the other out. Though by the riots, the Arabs were getting pissed off about being left out of the growth in wealth generated by the Jewish influx to the area.

Of course, after the UN Mandate, all hell broke loose, and since then its been the declared policy of most every Arab and Persian state to destroy Israel. And, I might add as IMO, was the period where the Arab states decided that having an agrieved popluation sitting on parts of the east and west banks, was beneficial to their cause to get rid of the Jews. And, thus we have the Palestinian/Hamas setup of today.

Now, I'm not commenting on anyone's political feelings on the matter, but am trying to point to the history of the area (in a macro sense).

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:21 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
So if there were many different groups living there, what gives the Jews the right to call it theirs?


Ok, since reading the link is too much effort.

The UN Mandate of 1948. Simple as that.

Since then, by victory in wars started by Arab states, the Israeli's have expanded and defended their territory.

Just like any other country in the history of the world.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:43 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
So if there were many different groups living there, what gives the Jews the right to call it theirs?


Ok, since reading the link is too much effort.

The UN Mandate of 1948. Simple as that.

Since then, by victory in wars started by Arab states, the Israeli's have expanded and defended their territory.

Just like any other country in the history of the world.

ZM


But they're not like every other country.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Is the world and for that matter the U.S. better off by continuing the who's right game? or are we all better off find a compromise solution to the mess and the killing?

Compromise means that both sides have to give up some of their argument and accept some of the other guys position. No other real way to solve this issue without more killing and hatred which seems to have no end.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:51 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Is the world and for that matter the U.S. better off by continuing the who's right game? or are we all better off find a compromise solution to the mess and the killing?

Compromise means that both sides have to give up some of their argument and accept some of the other guys position. No other real way to solve this issue without more killing and hatred which seems to have no end.


In the perfect world, the "I'd like to buy the world a Coke and teach it to sing in three part harmony" philosophy would work. Unfortunately there will never be enough people in high enough positions to get this implemented. I'm of the opinion that the only people who can make it to the top anymore, are those that won't compromise.

Yes, I'm cynical, but realistic.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:01 pm 
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I've always felt that Rush Limbaugh doesn't truly believe half the things he says. He's fooled the American public into thinking that there is a Left in this country. Liberal media? Yeah, right.. the major TV networks are owned by General Electric, Disney, JP Morgan, CitiBank, etc. The boards of directors of newspaper corporations are big whigs from Ford, General Motors, CocaCola, Philip Morris, ITT, IBM.. It's a CORPORATE media with corporate interests. A handfull of people control our media. A total joke! Rush Limbaugh is an extremely smart man. He knows there's no real leftist media. He's against anything left of far right.

Believe me, the Clintons love Rush as much as any Republican does. He helps both major political parties. It's the purpose of all these conservative talk show hosts to influence Americans to think that we have this huge gap between conservatives and liberals. There's a gap alright.. but it's a gap between the elite and the working class.. a gap that the elite want to widen as much as possible and they are doing their best with their corporate media. The airwaves should belong to us!!

Rush's idea that there is a Leftist media is a total myth and he knows it. He will never debate guys like Michael Parenti or Noam Chomsky because those men would destroy him. Parenti would win soooo convincingly but he will never be given a chance. Parenti can't get two words in this so called liberal media (he's the most brilliant author/activist/historian yet the majority of the public will never know him because the Rupert Murdocks of the world don't want us to hear his message.)

A debate between the two would be entertaining as hell too, because both men know their world history and both men have great senses of humor. The funny is thing is that I think Rush would love Parent's passion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Parenti


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Call it Jordan, call it Palistine whatever. The point is the same, the people who lived and today live there have every right to keep their homeland. It was taken in a war by Isreal and they want a piece of it back. Not an unfair request.

Yes, they started the wars which they lost. But we don't intend on occupying Iraq forever, why should the Isreali government have the right to annex or occupy the area we call Palistine?


My history may be remiss, but I believe that the Jews occupied the area known as Israel first. Go back a few thousand years.

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but I'd like to point out that by your logic we should all go back to Europe and leave North America to the natives, and I'm not sure that Bertie has room for me on his couch.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:07 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
Call it Jordan, call it Palistine whatever. The point is the same, the people who lived and today live there have every right to keep their homeland. It was taken in a war by Isreal and they want a piece of it back. Not an unfair request.

Yes, they started the wars which they lost. But we don't intend on occupying Iraq forever, why should the Isreali government have the right to annex or occupy the area we call Palistine?


My history may be remiss, but I believe that the Jews occupied the area known as Israel first. Go back a few thousand years.

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but I'd like to point out that by your logic we should all go back to Europe and leave North America to the natives, and I'm not sure that Bertie has room for me on his couch.


Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating taking this aproach. I'm simply saying that it's a slippery slope when one starts using the "[insert name here] was there first" method of deciding who stays, and who goes. It really gets hairy one you throw Pangaea into the mix. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:20 pm 
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Ahhh, my kind of discussion.

After reading the entire thread I have a few comments I'd like to toss in:

Isreal is God's chosen people and are directly related to the end times, if Isreal would get involved in an all-out war, that would signal the beginning of the end.

Liberals have this insane idea that if we just talk to countries like Iran and appease them with money or favors they would all of a sudden love us and be really nice to us. That really cracks me up. Actually it infuriates me. Essentially that is equivelant to paying the bully your lunch money. And jeez I wanted to burn Columbia Univ to the ground for letting that jaggoff come on our turf and speak his evil crap.

War is a necessary element to afford safety to us in the US. What I hate the most is when a network like CNN shows the one soldier who is complaining about not wanting to be at war. Its obvious that the soldier only joined to get the free college money and got a little more than he/she bargained for. The world essentially did what they wanted to us and our people for 8 years under Bill Clinton, US Embassies in Africa were destroyed, the USS Cole was attacked, World Trade Center attack number 1 happened, and what was our response? A few cruise missiles aimed at nothing in particular. I served in the military during the entire period of Clinton's tenure and I must say we were a despised outfit.

Forget about peace with the Arab world, their "Koran" clearly states that infidels (thats us) should be murdered and removed from the face of the earth. Just think about your extended family for a moment, aren't there family members that you despise or just don't get along with? How can there be peace with countries and a people that hate us from the start, people who are taught and bred to hate us from a young age, when there isn't peace amongst your own family, people that you love? There will be peace in the land once and for all when Christ returns and New Jerusalem is established (Revelation 21:1-10). Until then there will be wars and rumors of wars.

The real crazy thing about all this is we as Christians(speaking for myself) must love those that oppose us, BUT that does not mean that we allow them to kill us or destroy our way of life, our sanctity. The Bible doesn't instruct us to hate a person, it instructs us to hate the sin. Many Christians just can't get their head wrapped around that concept, which essentially drives many would be believers away from Christianity. But thats another topic all-together.

I want this country to stand firm in its resolve, to not allow terrorism to dictate our lives, to not allow Americans to be targeted while abroad, to destroy a tyrant and turn the country back over to the people that were at once slaves to his disgusting rule, to snuff out and bring to justice a coward who runs from cave to cave, a coward that kills innocent people trying to make a better life for themselves. I want this country to stop acting like a bunch of sissies and stand firm against countries that intend to do us or Isreal harm.

I believe that politicians are so worried about what other countries and other people think about us that they have forgotten about the people who are suffering now, good people that can't afford to buy gas because our country puts other nations concerns in front of them. I believe that politicians have lost touch with reality by putting nature and a small species of plant or animal in front of the true inhabitants of this world, humans. We need to drill for our own oil, in our own country, we need focus on providing for ourselves, in return drive the prices of goods from overseas down.

Finally, close the freakin borders. I am a big proponent of immigration, I love the diversity of various nationalities who come to America seeking a better life, legally! We need to stop giving illegals free passes, allowing them to take jobs from citizens, allowing them to kill our own citizens(ref incident in California) and wreck lives.

I believe I have ranted enough... I could go on for hours...


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:45 am 
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This weekend PBS aired a documentary on "POV" about Palestinian illegal workers in Israel. Their lives are miserable. They live away from their families, work for little pay, hide in the hills.. they admit that their leaders are not concerned about them. Palestinians are like our native Americans in the way they've been treated.

As for the immigration process my wife is not yet an American citizen. She hasn't pursued that yet because it's such a hassle for those who give up their citizenship when they return home (in this case the Philippines.) Her sister was hoping to find work here but less visas are being issued for nurses. We're thinking she will end up in Canada. I would think we need more nurses. We need to care for all these baby boomers.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Ahhh, my kind of discussion.

After reading the entire thread I have a few comments I'd like to toss in:

Isreal is God's chosen people and are directly related to the end times, if Isreal would get involved in an all-out war, that would signal the beginning of the end.

When a god comes and tells me that is so, then I'll believe it. Until then I see no more reason to base foreign policy on the Bible than I do on Norse or Greek mythology.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:29 pm 
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I have not really discussed my religious views. I consider myself a Christian.

But who decided that Isreali people were God's chosen? Does the Bible rule? and Should it? Some others think that the Quran should rule. Should it?

Try to keep in mind that both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were Diest (believed in God but not Christ nor Christian religions. They clearly wouldn't accept the stuff about God's chosen people.)

Of course neither should be able to trump the other. It is folly to believe that because I believe something, everyone else should be bound by my beliefs. (did somebody die and make me God?)

Religion here only indicates the bias of the speaker and not the rational truth that the Greeks sought. So, everything that is predicated on that thinking is not fundamentally sound or true. When trying to determine right from wrong we need to take an unbiased apporach based solely on facts that exist for all.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:13 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Ahhh, my kind of discussion.

After reading the entire thread I have a few comments I'd like to toss in:

Isreal is God's chosen people and are directly related to the end times, if Isreal would get involved in an all-out war, that would signal the beginning of the end.

When a god comes and tells me that is so, then I'll believe it. Until then I see no more reason to base foreign policy on the Bible than I do on Norse or Greek mythology.


If there's going to be one thing that ends up destroying this country, it's going to be our blind support for Israel.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:47 am 
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Heck yeah. Why would we support the only stable democracy in the region, when there are loads of autocratic thugs we could support.

Never mind that their intelligence service is indispensible to our ability to track terrorist networks, and provide information we could not otherwise get.

The point being, that Israel is entitled to their country because they got it and defend its borders just like any successful country can do.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:50 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Heck yeah. Why would we support the only stable democracy in the region, when there are loads of autocratic thugs we could support.

Never mind that their intelligence service is indispensible to our ability to track terrorist networks, and provide information we could not otherwise get.

The point being, that Israel is entitled to their country because they got it and defend its borders just like any successful country can do.

ZM



Yeah...the same country that spies on the US, stole nuclear material from the US, and deals with America's enemies (China and Venezuela) on a regular basis.

Being cozy with Israel is like staying with a woman who cheats on you because she's rich. You might have money, but you have no dignity.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:52 am 
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Ummm. Get me if I'm wrong.

We spy on everyone, including Israel. We work with China and Venezuela. And, a number of other countries hostile to Israels' interests.

Your point?

ZM

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