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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:47 pm 
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Did you know that Israel has a domestic baseball league?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Baseball_League

http://www.israelbaseballleague.com/


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:57 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Actually, ZM, I'd love to hear your history lesson.

My knowledge is based on stories from a very close friend who is a refugee from Ramallah. That Palestinian city was founded in the 1500's in what is referred to as the West Bank, as I'm sure you know. In fact, he can trace his family back to the Haddaddeens, which settled Ramallah 500 years ago. But hey, applying for refugee status and living in a crummy apartment on the west side of Cleveland is kind of the same thing, right?

I'm hardly a bleeding heart liberal (IMO, the only thing worse than a conservative is a liberal), and I don't expect anecdotal stories to sway anyone. But to describe the area as deserted with nothing but herders and nomads, and therefore justifying taking their land, is not being truthful. So, I'd love to hear your history lesson.


Do you really want to the historical route BBF? 'Cause Ramallah is a baby compared to Jeruselam, Bethlehem etc. which as you know are well over 2000 years old, and built primarily by.....

And, yes, the area in question, even with a town like Ramallah, was in fact dominated by nomadic herders, and was a desert province ignored by most of the world.

I will pull up as close to an objective history as I can for you, though.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:03 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Do you really want to the historical route BBF? 'Cause Ramallah is a baby compared to Jeruselam, Bethlehem etc. which as you know are well over 2000 years old, and built primarily by.....



When did I say Ramallah was bigger than, better than, or in any way comparable to the cities that you mention.

My point was that there have been strong Arabic settlements in that area as well. Because they are the minority, they don't deserve to keep their land?


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:17 pm 
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That's what you don't get. It was never "their" land. They were simply one of ten's of groups living in Palestine, Trans-Jordan, Jordan.. whatever you want to call it. One could certainly say the same about the Israeli's no? They built most of the place about 2000 or more, years ago.

Here is a fairly good timeline showing the political development of Palestine from its inception in the 1800's as part of the Ottoman Empire. Its obviously from a Jewish source, but it is the historical timeline... along with some obvious commentary. But, it also points out problems the Israeli's have brough on themselves so it at least attempts balance.

There is much more.

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:20 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
That's what you don't get. It was never "their" land. They were simply one of ten's of groups living in Palestine, Trans-Jordan, Jordan.. whatever you want to call it. One could certainly say the same about the Israeli's no? They built most of the place about 2000 or more, years ago.



Confused as to what you are saying here. Who's land is it, would you say, then?


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:46 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
That's what you don't get. It was never "their" land. They were simply one of ten's of groups living in Palestine, Trans-Jordan, Jordan.. whatever you want to call it. One could certainly say the same about the Israeli's no? They built most of the place about 2000 or more, years ago.

Here is a fairly good timeline showing the political development of Palestine from its inception in the 1800's as part of the Ottoman Empire. Its obviously from a Jewish source, but it is the historical timeline... along with some obvious commentary. But, it also points out problems the Israeli's have brough on themselves so it at least attempts balance.

There is much more.

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

ZM


So if there were many different groups living there, what gives the Jews the right to call it theirs?


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:11 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
I'd rather take the word of people who have been there and experienced the culture over people like you. If being open-minded means reading some websites and believing the propaganda they put out, well then I think I'll pass. I'll do that today and any other day of the week.

As far as the "Advanced Society" comment goes, I have some pretty strong feelings on that. But I know that it would only start a flame fight and I frankly have no interest in doing that.


Whatever, dude . . .

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Bob--- Jeremy's source in his last post is factual of the post WWII era. Yes, Jews were there in Christ's time but Isalm controlled it for centuries. The truth is that in the colonial era 1800s, Europe especially England and France controlled the whole Middle East as Mandates.

Both have some real claim on the territory and the only solution is to bring about part of it as a homeland for the Palistinians.

During the wars between them in the time from 1947 to 1967 and beyond the Moslems wanted to destroy all of Isreal. Since Jimmy Carter they have moved to a willingness to accept the boundaries established by the U.N. and to recognize Isreal's right to exist.

Isreal refuses because they say they need to keep those territories so that the Arabs can no longer use them to attack Isreal. The Golan was Syria's path to attack, the west bank was used to attack Jerusulem, and the Gaza provides a buffer from Egypt should they ever attack.

One more important consideration. This is about religion not nationalism. Jerusulam, for example, is the holyland for Jews. But it is the second city of Islam as well. mohammad is burried in a Mosque in Jerusulam. They want access to that part of the city.

very complicated issue.

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THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
I'd rather take the word of people who have been there and experienced the culture over people like you. If being open-minded means reading some websites and believing the propaganda they put out, well then I think I'll pass. I'll do that today and any other day of the week.

As far as the "Advanced Society" comment goes, I have some pretty strong feelings on that. But I know that it would only start a flame fight and I frankly have no interest in doing that.


Whatever, dude . . .



What's the matter Bob? Are you mad because I don't take your websites as seriously as I take the word of real people?

Or is it because Rush hasn't told you how to respond yet.

Either way, I don't give a damn. Israel spies on the US. They stole nuclear material from the US to start their nuclear program. They sell military technology to China. They want to make sure fighter jets in Venezuela are able to fly. These aren't the actions of a close ally.

I'm tired of you Rush Limbaugh propaganda. You bring nothing new to the table during arguments. Everyone who doesn't agree with you 100% is wrong. I'm done arguing with you.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:08 pm 
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Jeremy, baby, it seems to me that you're the one who has problems with temper.

But that's fine. Agree with me or not; I don't care. Either way, life is good. You cling to your opinions. I'll just continue taking my instructions from Rush Limbaugh.

Bye now. :)

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Jeremy, baby, it seems to me that you're the one who has problems with temper.

But that's fine. Agree with me or not; I don't care. Either way, life is good. You cling to your opinions. I'll just continue taking my instructions from Rush Limbaugh.

Bye now. :)



You do that buddy. Keep listening to a drug addicted college dropout. Talk about a role model for today's youth.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:58 am 
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Bob--- please tell me that you were just having some fun at Jeremy's expense. You aren't a Rush guy are you? I can't even discuss things with anyone who thinks that he has any answers for anyone. The man got fame by hating Clinton and his wife, and he continues to preach his brand of hate every day. I used to listen just to laugh but gave up when I realized he had nothing of value to add to the conversation.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:45 am 
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Rush is a fellow Missourian. He's proof that we're all ornery as mules!


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:33 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Bob--- please tell me that you were just having some fun at Jeremy's expense. You aren't a Rush guy are you? I can't even discuss things with anyone who thinks that he has any answers for anyone. The man got fame by hating Clinton and his wife, and he continues to preach his brand of hate every day. I used to listen just to laugh but gave up when I realized he had nothing of value to add to the conversation.


He might say he's not, but so in the last month or so everything he's written here could be more or less pulled from a Limbaugh transcript.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:17 am 
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BBF wrote:

Confused as to what you are saying here. Who's land is it, would you say, then?


Sorry if I was. I've said all along that going the "Historical Right" path just won't cut it. They area we are talking about was inhabited, sparsely, by those groups I cite. They were all under the Ottoman Empire, and later, British Colonial Rule in "Trans-Jordan" or Palestine.

The great immagrations to West Trans-Jordan in the late 1800's by Jews from the European Pogroms increased their population, and once the Ottomans and British, the rulers at the time, established an area West of the Jordan for the Jewish population, they started to transform the area into something you see today.

There was no Palestine and Jordan at the time. It was all a governing district called Jordan or Trans-Jordan.

Even after the Balfour proclimations, the Palestine population of today were considered Jordanians of the East Bank, and the Jews were consider Jordanians of the West Bank. There was no kicking one side or the other out. Though by the riots, the Arabs were getting pissed off about being left out of the growth in wealth generated by the Jewish influx to the area.

Of course, after the UN Mandate, all hell broke loose, and since then its been the declared policy of most every Arab and Persian state to destroy Israel. And, I might add as IMO, was the period where the Arab states decided that having an agrieved popluation sitting on parts of the east and west banks, was beneficial to their cause to get rid of the Jews. And, thus we have the Palestinian/Hamas setup of today.

Now, I'm not commenting on anyone's political feelings on the matter, but am trying to point to the history of the area (in a macro sense).

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:21 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
So if there were many different groups living there, what gives the Jews the right to call it theirs?


Ok, since reading the link is too much effort.

The UN Mandate of 1948. Simple as that.

Since then, by victory in wars started by Arab states, the Israeli's have expanded and defended their territory.

Just like any other country in the history of the world.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:43 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
So if there were many different groups living there, what gives the Jews the right to call it theirs?


Ok, since reading the link is too much effort.

The UN Mandate of 1948. Simple as that.

Since then, by victory in wars started by Arab states, the Israeli's have expanded and defended their territory.

Just like any other country in the history of the world.

ZM


But they're not like every other country.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Is the world and for that matter the U.S. better off by continuing the who's right game? or are we all better off find a compromise solution to the mess and the killing?

Compromise means that both sides have to give up some of their argument and accept some of the other guys position. No other real way to solve this issue without more killing and hatred which seems to have no end.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:51 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Is the world and for that matter the U.S. better off by continuing the who's right game? or are we all better off find a compromise solution to the mess and the killing?

Compromise means that both sides have to give up some of their argument and accept some of the other guys position. No other real way to solve this issue without more killing and hatred which seems to have no end.


In the perfect world, the "I'd like to buy the world a Coke and teach it to sing in three part harmony" philosophy would work. Unfortunately there will never be enough people in high enough positions to get this implemented. I'm of the opinion that the only people who can make it to the top anymore, are those that won't compromise.

Yes, I'm cynical, but realistic.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:01 pm 
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I've always felt that Rush Limbaugh doesn't truly believe half the things he says. He's fooled the American public into thinking that there is a Left in this country. Liberal media? Yeah, right.. the major TV networks are owned by General Electric, Disney, JP Morgan, CitiBank, etc. The boards of directors of newspaper corporations are big whigs from Ford, General Motors, CocaCola, Philip Morris, ITT, IBM.. It's a CORPORATE media with corporate interests. A handfull of people control our media. A total joke! Rush Limbaugh is an extremely smart man. He knows there's no real leftist media. He's against anything left of far right.

Believe me, the Clintons love Rush as much as any Republican does. He helps both major political parties. It's the purpose of all these conservative talk show hosts to influence Americans to think that we have this huge gap between conservatives and liberals. There's a gap alright.. but it's a gap between the elite and the working class.. a gap that the elite want to widen as much as possible and they are doing their best with their corporate media. The airwaves should belong to us!!

Rush's idea that there is a Leftist media is a total myth and he knows it. He will never debate guys like Michael Parenti or Noam Chomsky because those men would destroy him. Parenti would win soooo convincingly but he will never be given a chance. Parenti can't get two words in this so called liberal media (he's the most brilliant author/activist/historian yet the majority of the public will never know him because the Rupert Murdocks of the world don't want us to hear his message.)

A debate between the two would be entertaining as hell too, because both men know their world history and both men have great senses of humor. The funny is thing is that I think Rush would love Parent's passion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Parenti


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