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 Post subject: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:42 pm 
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Does anyone think war is a possibility? would we attack their nuclear plants? More likely, would Isreal?

Do you think Isreal could very soon send planes to destroy those plants? After all, with Bush in the White House, they have a sure bet to get support, and an unknown in a Possible Obamma?

I'm concerned,are you?

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:02 pm 
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I have a friend who says there's a military tactic (can't think of the name) that involves taking action in three areas, a triangular movement.. he's been telling me for several years that Iran would follow Iraq and Afghanistan. I hope he's wrong. He's a bit offbeat like me though, a conspiracy theorist.

We've caused nothing but problems in Iran and this isn't conspiracy talk, folks. These are facts. In the early fifties the people of Iran drove out a repressive ruler. Their new prime minister wanted to nationalize their oil which we did not take a liking to (same mistake made by Saddam later.) The CIA overthrew Iran's government and installed the Shah who (with our help) ruled with an iron fist. Years of misery followed for the Iranian people. Secret police, rampant poverty, decrease in life expectancy, 60% illiteracy. That's how we treat countries who don't do things our way.

I'm thankful that we avoided conflict with North Korea (there's no oil or canal or minerals there so we left them alone.)

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:12 pm 
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Sub, war is a possibility, yes.

The ayatollahs who lead Iran -- and that sawed-off blowhard they've installed as president -- are delusional fanatics. They dream of hegemony over the Middle East.

Israel, on the other hand, has humankind's longest history of persecution, and, as you may have noticed, its current leadership has grown weary of fighting. But there's still enough will left to defend against Holocaust II, especially if Benjamin Netanyahu returns to the prime ministership. Would it send attack aircraft against Iran? Might it launch a preemptive nuclear strike? Don't know. But I have to assume the answer is yes.

It's unlikely that attack aircraft could destroy Iran's entire nuclear program. The sites are too widely dispersed and too deep underground. But a bunker-buster or fuel-air bomb could throw off the balance of the centrifuges that enrich uranium, disrupting the whole cycle. And you can bet that Israeli intelligence knows exactly which site(s) to hit to accomplish that. Obviously, if Israel nukes Iran, the point becomes moot.

If Obama wins on Nov. 4, you can make book that he'll be tested early on -- perhaps by Iran or one of its proxies (Syria, Hezbollah) -- to see whether he has any cojones. Remember, W hadn't been in office 2-1/2 months when China forced down one of our reconnaissance planes over Hainan Island. Bush kept his cool and we got the pilot and plane back (We had to agree to dismantle it first, but we did get it back.) and shortly resumed the recon flights over the South China Sea.

How a President Obama would react to such a challenge isn't knowable at this point.

Anyway, that's my take on the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:00 am 
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I hadn't given any thought of the possibility of a nuclear attack on Iran. That is scary. How would we react? How would the rest of the world react? What would the standing of Isreal be in a world that had unleasher the nuclear beast? What would the Russian do? India? Pakistan? How would they be affected by radiation? How many innocent Iranian people die in such an attack? From radiation? Lot of issues there Bob, and I hope we don't cross thjat bridge.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:29 am 
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Isreal would be no more after a nuclear exchange. They know that. That's why they'll never use the nukes they stole from the US.

As far as Iran goes, I'd guess the bulk of the fighting would be done with air assets. I honestly don't see a three front war unless Congress brings back the draft. If that happens, you'll see a domestic government on the verge of a civil war.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:37 am 
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Ollie, I think you are correct about the impact of our foreign policy over the long term. We have and still do support many unpopular dictators because they are in our pocket. Makes sense in short term to keep them as friends. However, history shows us that since the end of WWII many of them have been overthrown and replaced by governments unfriendly to the U.S.

Iran, Nicaragua, and Cuba are a few examples of countries that have gone against us after a coup. We have not helped ourselves,IMO, by trying to overthrow the new government. A good example is the Reagen illegel (by U.S. laws) help for the rebels who were trying to overthrow the Sandinistas. They were the new government after Samosa was deposed in Nicaragua. They could have become an ally, even though they were communists but for Oliver North and our positioning against them. Before you get out of sorts because they are communists, we have a workable relationship with China today.

We need to see the rest of the world in terms of what the people in those countries want and know that repressive rulers will be overthrown eventually, or we will have more enemies. At some point they will out number our friends. In the long term it serves our self-interest in working for human rights everywhere and opposing those actions in China and elsewhere that violate those concepts.

The Shah of Iran is another perfect example of our long term interests being hurt by our support of him. When the coup happened it was against his government and those (the U.S.) who had kept him and his henchmen in power. The Shah you remember had the largest army in the Middle East and served as a buffer against possible expansion of the Russians or Chinese. A progressive American government could have reached out and forced the Shah to stop the mistreatment of his fellow Iranians or lose our support. Maybe he could have stayed in power if he were more of a Catherine the Great type of ruler.

And we never have come to grips with the real base issue that separates us from a Middle East solution. That of course is the Palistinian issue. We can continue to support the Isreali people and at the same time find an area for the Palistinians to have a homeland. There used to be a Palistine and the U.N. just took part of it and created Isreal. The rest was taken in wars. The Arab people and Moslems in general are not going to stop this hatred for us until we get this issue solved so that they see some fair treatment of the Palistinian people. We continue to fuel the anti-American feelings throughout the area. Hell, even the Iraqi people hate us and want us out.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:40 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Ollie, I think you are correct about the impact of our foreign policy over the long term. We have and still do support many unpopular dictators because they are in our pocket. Makes sense in short term to keep them as friends. However, history shows us that since the end of WWII many of them have been overthrown and replaced by governments unfriendly to the U.S.

Iran, Nicaragua, and Cuba are a few examples of countries that have gone against us after a coup. We have not helped ourselves,IMO, by trying to overthrow the new government. A good example is the Reagen illegel (by U.S. laws) help for the rebels who were trying to overthrow the Sandinistas. They were the new government after Samosa was deposed in Nicaragua. They could have become an ally, even though they were communists but for Oliver North and our positioning against them. Before you get out of sorts because they are communists, we have a workable relationship with China today.

We need to see the rest of the world in terms of what the people in those countries want and know that repressive rulers will be overthrown eventually, or we will have more enemies. At some point they will out number our friends. In the long term it serves our self-interest in working for human rights everywhere and opposing those actions in China and elsewhere that violate those concepts.

The Shah of Iran is another perfect example of our long term interests being hurt by our support of him. When the coup happened it was against his government and those (the U.S.) who had kept him and his henchmen in power. The Shah you remember had the largest army in the Middle East and served as a buffer against possible expansion of the Russians or Chinese. A progressive American government could have reached out and forced the Shah to stop the mistreatment of his fellow Iranians or lose our support. Maybe he could have stayed in power if he were more of a Catherine the Great type of ruler.

And we never have come to grips with the real base issue that separates us from a Middle East solution. That of course is the Palistinian issue. We can continue to support the Isreali people and at the same time find an area for the Palistinians to have a homeland. There used to be a Palistine and the U.N. just took part of it and created Isreal. The rest was taken in wars. The Arab people and Moslems in general are not going to stop this hatred for us until we get this issue solved so that they see some fair treatment of the Palistinian people. We continue to fuel the anti-American feelings throughout the area. Hell, even the Iraqi people hate us and want us out.



Good post sub!


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:41 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
... There used to be a Palistine and the U.N. just took part of it and created Isreal. The rest was taken in wars. The Arab people and Moslems in general are not going to stop this hatred for us until we get this issue solved so that they see some fair treatment of the Palistinian people. We continue to fuel the anti-American feelings throughout the area. Hell, even the Iraqi people hate us and want us out.



No, sub, sorry this is factually wrong. There was no Palestine until the UN Mandate that created Israel. There was only a portion of Jordan. Palestine and Palestinian's are the excuse created by the rest of the Arab world to maintain a constant war footing with Israel. A quick historical review of the area will show that the Arab world cared not a wit about southwest Jordan until the Israeli's built a gem out of the desert.

Then, it was/is time to "push the Jews into the sea".

As to Iran? What do you think Iraq was all about? We've been at war (or the mullah's have been at war with us) since 1978.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
A quick historical review of the area will show that the Arab world cared not a wit about southwest Jordan until the Israeli's built a gem out of the desert.
ZM


Yeah, you know...except for those people who actually, you know, LIVED in southwest Jordan and referred to themselves as Palestinians. I'm pretty sure they cared about losing their land, homes, etc. Just because there was no gov't state of Palestine doesn't mean there weren't Palestinians forced out.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:14 pm 
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Call it Jordan, call it Palistine whatever. The point is the same, the people who lived and today live there have every right to keep their homeland. It was taken in a war by Isreal and they want a piece of it back. Not an unfair request.

Yes, they started the wars which they lost. But we don't intend on occupying Iraq forever, why should the Isreali government have the right to annex or occupy the area we call Palistine?

Again, failure to work this out will only result in more hatred of everything American. How Smart is that? Do we really want to give the radicals in the Arab world more ammunition to recruit more members? My problem is that I don't think we can bomb our way out of this. They just won't summit. So, we need another approach, don't we? The old way isn't working and, in fact, has and will continue to result in more negative actions against us.

We are still the biggest kid on the block, but they other kids are getting together to stop us from doing as we please. Are we going to hit them all with our baseball bat or our we going to grow up and compromise a little and stop the insanity?

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:24 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Israeli's built a gem out of the desert.


What? Since when is Israel a gem?


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Call it Jordan, call it Palistine whatever. The point is the same, the people who lived and today live there have every right to keep their homeland. It was taken in a war by Isreal and they want a piece of it back. Not an unfair request.

Yes, they started the wars which they lost. But we don't intend on occupying Iraq forever, why should the Isreali government have the right to annex or occupy the area we call Palistine?


My history may be remiss, but I believe that the Jews occupied the area known as Israel first. Go back a few thousand years.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:49 pm 
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BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Yeah, you know...except for those people who actually, you know, LIVED in southwest Jordan and referred to themselves as Palestinians. I'm pretty sure they cared about losing their land, homes, etc. Just because there was no gov't state of Palestine doesn't mean there weren't Palestinians forced out.


There were, virtually, none. I'm not going into the full history. Its out there to see easily. But the area was a desolate nothing with a few nomadic herders until the Jewish diaspora started entering the area after WWI and the European pogroms. The idea of Palestine didn't even exist until after the Balfour declaration of Britian.

That the Palestinians today need a homeland is indisputable to me. It'll just help them a lot, if they start by not trying to blow the Jews up and into the sea.

Israel was given a sliver of land. They've since done what any country does. It wins and maintains and defends its borders. Like any country needs to do, to sustain itself.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Israeli's built a gem out of the desert.


What? Since when is Israel a gem?


Jeremy, ZM is right. Have you never heard the phrase "making the desert bloom?"

Such as this example, for instance:
http://www.netafimgreenhouse.com/.../Middle_East/

And this:
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461546806/cooperative_farming_in_israel.html

And this:
http://blog.israelinphotos.com/2008/01/israel-picturesfotos-van-israel-moshav.html

And this:
http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=14576

Or, how about this:
http://www.livingisrael.com/

This, maybe?
http://www.telaviv-apartment.com/

Or, if you'd rather, this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Israel

It usually helps to educate one's self before heaping scorn on something one knows little about.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Israeli's built a gem out of the desert.


What? Since when is Israel a gem?


Jeremy, ZM is right. Have you never heard the phrase "making the desert bloom?"

Such as this example, for instance:
http://www.netafimgreenhouse.com/.../Middle_East/

And this:
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461546806/cooperative_farming_in_israel.html

And this:
http://blog.israelinphotos.com/2008/01/israel-picturesfotos-van-israel-moshav.html

And this:
http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=14576

Or, how about this:
http://www.livingisrael.com/

This, maybe?
http://www.telaviv-apartment.com/

Or, if you'd rather, this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Israel

It usually helps to educate one's self before heaping scorn on something one knows little about.


Well Bob, I've taken the time to talk to people who have been there instead of people who know how to work the Google on the internet machine.

Based on my conversations with them, I don't think of Israel as a gem but rather as Detroit's cousin.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Well Bob, I've taken the time to talk to people who have been there instead of people who know how to work the Google on the internet machine.

Based on my conversations with them, I don't think of Israel as a gem but rather as Detroit's cousin.


I see. The Israelis are a mix of people from Europe, the Americas, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East who have transformed a little patch of desert into one of the world's most advanced societies, and a democracy to boot. But obviously your opinion, based on conversations with people who have been there, trumps all that.

That's open-minded of you. You'd fit right in at the United Nations.

Nice gratuitous dig at Detroit, too.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:26 pm 
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ZM -- Do you see any bias in your assertation that the Arabs want to blow up the Jews and drive them into the ocean, and that Isreal is simply doing what any country would do in establishing and protecting their boundaries?

It cxertainly seems like it when they are doing the same thing to each other. They are killing each other!

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Well Bob, I've taken the time to talk to people who have been there instead of people who know how to work the Google on the internet machine.

Based on my conversations with them, I don't think of Israel as a gem but rather as Detroit's cousin.


I see. The Israelis are a mix of people from Europe, the Americas, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East who have transformed a little patch of desert into one of the world's most advanced societies, and a democracy to boot. But obviously your opinion, based on conversations with people who have been there, trumps all that.

That's open-minded of you. You'd fit right in at the United Nations.

Nice gratuitous dig at Detroit, too.



Yeah pretty much Bob. I'd rather take the word of people who have been there and experienced the culture over people like you. If being open-minded means reading some websites and believing the propaganda they put out, well then I think I'll pass. I'll do that today and any other day of the week.

As far as the "Advanced Society" comment goes, I have some pretty strong feelings on that. But I know that it would only start a flame fight and I frankly have no interest in doing that.


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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
ZM -- Do you see any bias in your assertation that the Arabs want to blow up the Jews and drive them into the ocean, and that Isreal is simply doing what any country would do in establishing and protecting their boundaries?

It cxertainly seems like it when they are doing the same thing to each other. They are killing each other!


I wouldn't presume to speak for ZM. But this simply cannot be denied:

If the Palestinians would lay down their weapons, there would be lasting peace tomorrow. If the Israelis were to lay down their weapons, they would be annihilated.

Look, the state of Israel constitutes 1 percent of the entire sweep of the Middle East. At its narrowest point, it is a mere nine miles across. And its Arab neighbors begrudge even that.

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 Post subject: Re: War with Iran
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:40 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
BBF wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:

There were, virtually, none. I'm not going into the full history.


ZM


Actually, ZM, I'd love to hear your history lesson.

My knowledge is based on stories from a very close friend who is a refugee from Ramallah. That Palestinian city was founded in the 1500's in what is referred to as the West Bank, as I'm sure you know. In fact, he can trace his family back to the Haddaddeens, which settled Ramallah 500 years ago. But hey, applying for refugee status and living in a crummy apartment on the west side of Cleveland is kind of the same thing, right?

I'm hardly a bleeding heart liberal (IMO, the only thing worse than a conservative is a liberal), and I don't expect anecdotal stories to sway anyone. But to describe the area as deserted with nothing but herders and nomads, and therefore justifying taking their land, is not being truthful. So, I'd love to hear your history lesson.


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