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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:12 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
I see both sides of this in Wisconsin, but my question is why are they doing it to teachers and not other public employees?


Easy answer. Follow the money trail. Governor Walker can offer all sorts of public sound bites about what is motivating his actions. However, after you cut through the rhetoric and carefully examine his budget, you will find all kinds of inconsistency. While some are portraying him as a courageous hero, follow the money trail and reach your own conclusion.

I'm not saying that there are any easy answers. There's not. Not even close. And I'm one who generally (I stress generally) believes that unions helped create the financial problem that certain states currently face.

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:06 pm 
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The bill does affect other public unions. Just police and firefighters are exempt.

And, the bill does not affect salary negotiation, only the pink elephant in the room... defined benefits.

Collective bargaining for beni's is a problem here, and in virtually every other state with public unions because there is no "one" place to go to negotiate. Every mayor of every town has to negotiate his contract, and they have no leverage in those negotiations. The result is these folks have no way to control their budgets when revenue drops.

This is one reason that FDR and George Meany never wanted public unions.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
Assuming your frame of reference is what's going on between state governments and teachers' unions, yep, pretty much.


This is an over-reach which will have the desired effect of rejection by Americans.


Oh, OK. So I guess there's no point in my hoping that the 2012 election won't return the White House and the majority in the US Senate to the Democrats.

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:37 pm 
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I have a question for you Bob. Granted you are in Mass. which is an outlier when it comes to labor matters, but how are teachers supposed to achieve a living wage and prevent abuse from government if they are not allowed to bargain with school boards? Who out there is an advocate for teachers? Nobody in this state. King Russell Pearce wants us to screen for illegals now at schools and hospitals. Bill in the leg. right now. Of course with all our issues here, our esteemed Gov., Jan Brewer, second in command, named last week, Az. Beer Week. Want some laughs? Read azcentral.com. :o :o :o :shock: :shock: :shock: :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:17 am 
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AZ, here's the problem I have with the premise of your question. I do not believe public sector unions -- specifically teachers unions -- truly care about the welfare of their members in matters of pay or, as you put it, abuse from government. Not any more.

And, as has been demonstrated in Wisconsin, they obviously don't give a damn about the taxpayers or the education of the children their members are supposed to be teaching. By the way, they also abhor competition, which is why they fight so vehemently against charter schools and voucher programs -- two methods with the potential to actually improve the quality of education.

Notice, I said unions, not individual teachers. I'm not anti-teacher. My sister and brother-in-law spent their whole careers teaching in the public schools in Upper Darby, Pa. On the other hand (and remember, I'm a retired newspaper journalist) some of the most arrogant human beings I've ever met have been labor leaders, especially those of public sector unions.

I believe the unions are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Democratic Party and that they exist to extort as much money from taxpayers as possible so they can supply it to the party's war chest(s) through members' dues. As George Will wrote the other day: "These unions use dues extracted from members to elect the members' employers. And governments, not disciplined by the need to make a profit, extract government employees' salaries from taxpayers. [So] government sits on both sides of the table in cozy 'negotiations' with unions."

A growing number of states are broke, most notably California and New York. And, oh, yeah, Wisconsin. Do the unions care? If they do, they have a peculiar way of showing it. By the NEA's own statistics for the '07-'08 academic year, California had 300,544 public school teachers in grades K-12 as well as the nation's highest average teacher salary: $64,424. That's over $19 billion, not counting the cost of benefits packages or the pay and benefits of the other public sector unionized employees. New York had 207,315 teachers making an average of $62,332.

That simply can't be sustained, not when the U-6 is pushing 20 percent nationally. I don't mean this personally, but you can't expect people not to be angry and resentful when they're earning -- say -- two-thirds the pay of a public school teacher and yet are continually asked to dig deeper so the teachers can take home more money.

And then when there's a rally at the Massachusetts State House in support of the Wisconsin teachers, and a member of Congress -- in this case Rep. Michael Capuano -- tells the hundreds of assembled union members, "Every once in a while you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary," and his words draw cheers . . . well, perhaps you can understand why people like me have had enough. Imagine the furor in the news media alone if a Republican had said that at a mass rally.

Sorry for the length of this reply. But that's where I come from on the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:12 am 
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You mean like when Governor Walker refers to bringing a baseball bat to negotiations or the Indiana assistant AG referring to using live ammunition to break up the rallies in Wisconsin?

Far from a one-way street. Far from it. No matter how advocacy outlets want to portray it (FOX and MSNBC).

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Bob-- I'm sure that it's not possible to change your strongly held views but let me just tell you a little about being a teacher.

In the 1970's I clearly remember that at the end of a long and difficult strike, coal miners in my area settled and began making $100.00 a day. I was then earning $63.00 a day teaching. I was depressed because my time and schooling had been wasted until I realized that I had the same two things going for me. Namely, I was helping many young people prepare for their future and I could at least retire with some degree of comfort. Now folks like you think that's unfair and becuse you hate unions you want to take even that from teachers. You are indeed a great American,Bob.

With enough people like you in my country, who will educate the kids? failures in life? And then what happens to our America?

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
AZ, here's the problem I have with the premise of your question. I do not believe public sector unions -- specifically teachers unions -- truly care about the welfare of their members in matters of pay or, as you put it, abuse from government. Not any more.


As far as pay in concerned, the union is my state has no power whatsoever. Right to work state. When our genius legislature, who put us in this position, led by King Russell Pearce (do some DD on this guy, seriously) and Gov. Jan Brewer finally make all the cuts that are coming to public education here, that is what will dictate what I make next year. They will tell the districts that this is how much funding you will receive. The district will make it's cuts accordingly. One option for my district is to close (or repurposing as they spin it) three schools, 2 elem. and 1 middle school. Now for 2 months since this was proposed, neighborhood activist have been fighting this tooth and nail. Where will the cuts come if they win this battle? My pay. 3 years ago, I made $46,000. This last year I made $43,000. ELL stipends eliminated. State provided stipends lost. Increased contributions to health care and increased retirement contributions further eroded what I take home.

The union does provide me legal protection. It is basically, for me, an insurance policy in case some legal issue comes up. 5 years ago, we had an interim principal who tried to bully teachers with her bluster. In an e mail, I protested her supposition that there was adequate security on the patio during lunch hour. Our PE classes were right next to it on the courts and often, myself and the other PE teacher would be the only supervision. She ambushed me in my office at lunch one day and threatened to take my house from me with a lawsuit she would pursue. That is why I am a union member.

Oh, and Russell Pearce is running a bill through the leg. that will allow college profs to carry guns on campus.

Bob in Boston wrote:
they fight so vehemently against charter schools and voucher programs


There are more charter schools in Az. than just about anywhere else. Many are rift with financial misuse issues and shady business practices that if public schools behaved like this they would be crucified.

Bob in Boston wrote:
some of the most arrogant human beings I've ever met have been labor leaders


Power corrupts. Absolute power absolutely corrupts. Arrogance is not limited to labor leaders. I would think politicians have a hand up there too. See King Russell. Really. I think Republicans would cringe a bit when investigating this guy.

Bob in Boston wrote:
the nation's highest average teacher salary: $64,424.


Cost of living in Cali? Huge.

Bob in Boston wrote:
New York had 207,315 teachers making an average of $62,332.


$43,000 here. Maybe I should move. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) Nah. Too old. No one gonna hire a 56 year old PE teacher. ;) ;) ;)

Bob in Boston wrote:
And then when there's a rally at the Massachusetts State House in support of the Wisconsin teachers, and a member of Congress -- in this case Rep. Michael Capuano -- tells the hundreds of assembled union members, "Every once in a while you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary," and his words draw cheers . . . well, perhaps you can understand why people like me have had enough. Imagine the furor in the news media alone if a Republican had said that at a mass rally.


No. 9 wrote:
You mean like when Governor Walker refers to bringing a baseball bat to negotiations or the Indiana assistant AG referring to using live ammunition to break up the rallies in Wisconsin?


Any behavior and comments of this type should be abhorred. There is no place for that type of rhetoric. Ever.

Bob, it sounds to me that the system in Az. is pretty close to how you would see it. Weak to no union. Low pay for teachers. Govt. that holds little value in education or teachers. Keep taxes low. Az. is 49th in per pupil funding in the US. Now state gov. in laying it on the heads of the teachers here saying that we don't do our job well. I must respectfully disagree. I can only speak for the middle school and the district I work in. The teachers and admin. have turned the school I work in around in the last 5 years when we got a new admin. and we busted our asses to change the climate and priorities at our school. Did it to the point where we have been written about and used as an example of what can be done. But, in many peoples eyes, it isn't enough. Never will be. Oh, and after all this, Az. gets consistent low marks for educating it's citizens.

Is every teacher a master teacher. Heck no. But through training young teachers and nurturing them in the right way, they can be developed into great teachers. PRoblem in our district is that we train them and then after 2-4 years they head off to Chandler or Gilbert, growing areas, for pay far greater than our ditrict will pay.

I am not here to defend unions or bash politicians and their priorities. Just letting y'all know that what is in one part of the country may not be in another and that despite it all, it is politics that will win out in the end, for better or worse.

8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:17 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Bob-- I'm sure that it's not possible to change your strongly held views but let me just tell you a little about being a teacher.

In the 1970's I clearly remember that at the end of a long and difficult strike, coal miners in my area settled and began making $100.00 a day. I was then earning $63.00 a day teaching. I was depressed because my time and schooling had been wasted until I realized that I had the same two things going for me. Namely, I was helping many young people prepare for their future and I could at least retire with some degree of comfort. Now folks like you think that's unfair and becuse you hate unions you want to take even that from teachers. You are indeed a great American,Bob.

With enough people like you in my country, who will educate the kids? failures in life? And then what happens to our America?


No, it appears you and I are not meant to agree on any political issue. Which is too bad, from my point of view. You probably are sincere in your beliefs. I don't share them, but I would not swear at you for them as you've previously done at me. Nor would I accuse you of hatred as you do me. What was it that we all were supposed to strive for after the Tucson shootings? Ah, yes, civility. I cut off debate with you once before because of your lack thereof. I now do so again. I'll engage instead with others who are less intemperate.

Have a nice day.

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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Intemperate? not civil? Not my reading of my comments, but Bob you know better, after all you're a member of the always honest and civil 4th estate.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: MIDDLE CLASS
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:45 pm 
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More union stuff.

The Port Authority has been struggling in Allegheny County for years. It cannot sustain itself and has had to cut back service to the public. Why?

There are bus drivers making six figures. Nothing against bus drivers, but they should not be making even close to that kind of money in the public sector. If Greyhound is paying their drivers that much, so be it.

Why am I bringing this up?

A private bus company is trying to make up for some of the lost service by adding some routes in the North Hills. The union is protesting it. So much for being for the people.

http://post-gazette.com/pg/11067/1130515-455.stm

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