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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
You want to actually address my point or do you want to keep on arguing semantics?

I wasn't going to, because that's your opinion, and there's not much I want to say about it. You have a tendency to think that anyone to the left of where you stand is "far left leaning", but while I disagree (Stewart is left of center, but hardly the extreme liberal that you paint him to be), I'm tired of trying to convince you otherwise. And yes, his rally was a bit of a "see and be seen" event, but that's what rallies are: an event where like-minded individuals may be seen to show their support for a cause or ideal.

I will say this: what isn't fair is your characterization of the people who attended the event. The people in that crowd cannot be broadly classified as hipsters, and your characterization of their level of intelligence (i.e., "people don't even know that calling the President a Keynesian refers to his economic philosophy and not his place of birth") shows your hypocrisy for criticizing Stewart. The fact of the matter is that the people who went to that rally did so for two reasons: (1) they thought it would be entertaining; and (2) they saw it as a way to express, en masse, their frustration with the level of discourse we see in Washington and on cable news. I have friends that attended that rally, and they are nothing like the sweeping generalization that you made regarding the attendees.

Up thread, you expressed your distaste for those who poke fun at stereotypes. I find that odd, considering how ready you are to earnestly apply them.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:18 am 
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Willton wrote:
You said that he's never made fun of Boxer. I posted 4 clips where there was at least some bit of mockery directed towards her. I never commented on the degree of such mockery.

Bullshit, Willton. Two of those clips contained not a single whit of criticsim of Boxer, and one was a fucking tribute. A third was a clip of Boxer from the Senate floor, bozoing with visual blow-ups, with not a negative word from Stewart.

You are simply not being accurate in saying that you posted four clips of Stewart deriding Boxer. Geez, I had to waste time watching those clips to check out your accuracy.

Undoubtedly, you are used to readers just accepting what you claim the "support" stands for. Try again, Willton.

Willton wrote:
But why does that matter to you? Why are you so fixated on Stewart's failure to mock Boxer to the degree of your liking?

(1) She actually holds significant power, which she is trying to wield to impose horseshit, job-killing "carbon taxes."
(2) She actually damages the country with her idiocy.
(3) She is about 1000 times more relevant than Sarah Palin, for example.
(4) So would I have to fumble around and post 4 videos that I claim to be negative towards Palin, only to have you point out that three are clearly NOT negative from Stewart's perspective, and in fact one is outright POSITIVE?
(5) So enough trying to tell me that Stewart is a modern-day Mark Twain, dispensing a fair appraisal of American politics, and with an eye towards protecting the "little guy." His heroes would impose debilitating and job-killing energy policies based upon the lie known as "global warming," uhhhm, "global temperature change."

Get it now?


Last edited by Bucfan on Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:23 am 
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Willton wrote:
I've shown your error by quoting the exact language that Stewart uses, and then I've shown how your characterization is incorrect. If you cannot see how you are misrepresenting Stewart, then I can't help you any further.

Really, Willton?

The Loveathon that was his rally featured Cat Stevens.

You know, this guy?

The musician known as Cat Stevens said in a British television program to be broadcast next week that rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author Salman Rushdie, ''I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing.''

http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/18/s ... e-cat.html

So, Willton, why don't you justify your hero - a guy we have no basis in criticizing - featuring a nutjob who extolled the virtues of murdering Salman Rushdie.

Go ahead, I'll wait.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:32 am 
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And back to why I take exception to your ballwashing of Stewart. You began the discussion stating the following:

For those of you who would like a more uplifting and honest take on politics going forward:

I don't find Stewart to be honest, and explained in great detail why. I don't find his commentary uplifting either. As a rule, tragedy celebrates the virtue and beauty of humanity, while comedy focuses on its failures and foibles.

Stewart makes a living focusing on human failing. That is what comedians do. That is what he does. He is clearly NOT impartial in his commentary, and never claimed to be.

So therefore, his show is a combination of (1) focusing on human failings and making hay with how faulty voters are, while (2) presenting that approach in a very (admittedly) partial manner.

So excuse me if I don't find anything about Stewart to be "uplifting and honest." He is neither.

And I have explained in great detail the reasons for my view. Whatever disagreements I have with Obama - and they are legion - I can accept that he is uplifting.

As was Reagan.

But please, Willton, I really do not have the energy or the interest in correcting suchy monumentally basic errors on your part.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:09 pm 
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I hope I don't burst your bubble Bucfan, but we have income tax and despite being smaller, our financial burdens are substantial to the point that our "legislators" wanted to divert money from education (where we are already 49th out of 50 in funding per pupil) and sell state land and wildlife preserves to fund the general fund. They have already sold the state capitol itself to meet payroll last year and now the state leases it's own capitol buildings and offices. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Oh, and I would be honored to have you for a neighbor. In fact, the house next door is still empty, bit of a fixer upper though. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
You said that he's never made fun of Boxer. I posted 4 clips where there was at least some bit of mockery directed towards her. I never commented on the degree of such mockery.

Bullshit, Willton. Two of those clips contained not a single whit of criticsim of Boxer, and one was a fucking tribute. A third was a clip of Boxer from the Senate floor, bozoing with visual blow-ups, with not a negative word from Stewart.

You are simply not being accurate in saying that you posted four clips of Stewart deriding Boxer. Geez, I had to waste time watching those clips to check out your accuracy.

Undoubtedly, you are used to readers just accepting what you claim the "support" stands for. Try again, Willton.

Are you blind? The whole bit on seducing Rice to have children was a jab at Boxer's suggestion that Rice would see things more clearly regarding the war if she had children. That is ridiculous, so Stewart did a whole bit on it. It was over the top, and it should have been. How did you not see that? Or has your hatred for Stewart rendered you incapable of understanding satire?

The exchange with Colbert was, admittedly, pure silliness, but it referred to a heated exchange between Rice and Boxer during Rice's confirmation. So perhaps it was not poking fun at Boxer so much as poking fun at her exchange with Rice. Either way, I put it up.

And by the way, when the Daily Show posts something like Boxer needing more charts to make her point as the "Moment of Zen" segment, they do so because it is ridiculous. Sometimes, there's no need for extra commentary on its ridiculousness; sometimes the clip is all that's necessary to elicit laughter.

In any event, I never said that there was any criticism. I said that there was mockery. Mockery does not require negative words; all it requires is poking fun. If you can't see that, then I'm afraid that you are almost as humorless as Jeremy appears to be.

Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
But why does that matter to you? Why are you so fixated on Stewart's failure to mock Boxer to the degree of your liking?

(1) She actually holds significant power, which she is trying to wield to impose horseshit, job-killing "carbon taxes."
(2) She actually damages the country with her idiocy.
(3) She is about 1000 times more relevant than Sarah Palin, for example.
(4) So would I have to fumble around and post 4 videos that I claim to be negative towards Palin, only to have you point out that three are clearly NOT negative from Stewart's perspective, and in fact one is outright POSITIVE?
(5) So enough trying to tell me that Stewart is a modern-day Mark Twain, dispensing a fair appraisal of American politics, and with an eye towards protecting the "little guy." His heroes would impose debilitating and job-killing energy policies based upon the lie known as "global warming," uhhhm, "global temperature change."

Get it now?

Alright, I see where this is going. The only reason you want Boxer criticized is because you don't like her policies. It has nothing to do with whether she's said or done anything worthy of entertaining satire. To this, I say: get your head out of your ass. The Daily Show is not about pushing policy; it's about entertaining a crowd. If you want policy wonks badgering Senators for their policies, go watch MSNBC or Faux News.

If you think entertaining bits could be done about Boxer enough to merit watching, then maybe you should film your own show. I know Fox News tried it's own version (i.e., "The 1/2 Hour News Hour"), but apparently they understand humor about as well as you do, because the show was canceled after 7 months.

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Last edited by Willton on Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
I've shown your error by quoting the exact language that Stewart uses, and then I've shown how your characterization is incorrect. If you cannot see how you are misrepresenting Stewart, then I can't help you any further.

Really, Willton?

The Loveathon that was his rally featured Cat Stevens.

You know, this guy?

The musician known as Cat Stevens said in a British television program to be broadcast next week that rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author Salman Rushdie, ''I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing.''

http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/18/s ... e-cat.html

So, Willton, why don't you justify your hero - a guy we have no basis in criticizing - featuring a nutjob who extolled the virtues of murdering Salman Rushdie.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

You apparently do not have the whole story. You are hanging on to one data point and extrapolating it to an extreme. That's irresponsible, and you should know better.

That "nutjob" had this to say thereafter:

Quote:
"I foolishly made light of certain provocative questions. When asked what I’d do if Salman Rushdie entered a restaurant in which I was eating, I said, “I would probably call up Ayatollah Khomeini”; and, rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author, I jokingly said I would have preferred that it'd be the “real thing”.
...
Providentially, they kept in one important response to a final question posed directly to me by Geoffrey Robertson QC. At the end of the debate he asked me to imagine if Salman Rushdie was taken to court in Britain and the Jury found him ‘not guilty’ of any crime – Blasphemy or otherwise – and dismissed the case, what I would do. I clearly stated that I would have to accept the decision and fully abide by the law! And that was no joke."


Stevens then said this in a 2000 Rolling Stone interview:
Quote:
I'm very sad that this seems to be the No. 1 question people want to discuss. I had nothing to do with the issue other than what the media created. I was innocently drawn into the whole controversy. So, after many years, I'm glad at least now that I have been given the opportunity to explain to the public and fans my side of the story in my own words. At a lecture, back in 1989, I was asked a question about blasphemy according to Islamic Law, I simply repeated the legal view according to my limited knowledge of the Scriptural texts, based directly on historical commentaries of the Qur'an. The next day the newspaper headlines read, "Cat Says, Kill Rushdie." I was abhorred, but what could I do? I was a new Muslim. If you ask a Bible student to quote the legal punishment of a person who commits blasphemy in the Bible, he would be dishonest if he didn't mention Leviticus 24:16.


Stevens also has on his website:
Quote:
I never called for the death of Salman Rushdie; nor backed the Fatwa issued by the Ayatollah Khomeini--and still don’t. The book itself destroyed the harmony between peoples and created an unnecessary international crisis.

When asked about my opinion regarding blasphemy, I could not tell a lie and confirmed that--like both the Torah and the Gospel--the Qur’an considers it, without repentance, as a capital offense. The Bible is full of similar harsh laws if you’re looking for them. However, the application of such Biblical and Qur’anic injunctions is not to be outside of due process of law, in a place or land where such law is accepted and applied by the society as a whole...


So, whether Stevens called for the death of Rushdie or not, it appears to me that the "nutjob" does not personally believe that Rushdie should be killed. Unlike you, I can forgive a person for making a foolish statement and regretting it, especially when said person dedicates himself to educational and philanthropic causes in the Muslim community and has received several awards for his work in promoting peace in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
And back to why I take exception to your ballwashing of Stewart. You began the discussion stating the following:

For those of you who would like a more uplifting and honest take on politics going forward:

I don't find Stewart to be honest, and explained in great detail why. I don't find his commentary uplifting either. As a rule, tragedy celebrates the virtue and beauty of humanity, while comedy focuses on its failures and foibles.

Stewart makes a living focusing on human failing. That is what comedians do. That is what he does. He is clearly NOT impartial in his commentary, and never claimed to be.

So therefore, his show is a combination of (1) focusing on human failings and making hay with how faulty voters are, while (2) presenting that approach in a very (admittedly) partial manner.

So excuse me if I don't find anything about Stewart to be "uplifting and honest." He is neither.

And I have explained in great detail the reasons for my view. Whatever disagreements I have with Obama - and they are legion - I can accept that he is uplifting.

As was Reagan.

But please, Willton, I really do not have the energy or the interest in correcting suchy monumentally basic errors on your part.

I never said that the show was uplifting. I said that the speech was uplifting, and it was. Stop pointing out non-sequitors.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:12 pm 
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So to summarize:

(1) Being critical of Boxer based upon policy differences is not a legitimate basis for thinking that Stewart might - JUST MIGHT - want to direct a smidgeon of his vitriol towards her, rather than a boatload of others who are basically as relevant to the political process as I am.

(2) Featuring Cat Stevens is not a problem, since although he advocated murdering Salman Rushdie, he later said he didn't mean it. Really. (And don't bullshit about what he said, Willton. "Even if he did ..." He said it, not once but three times in the interview. I suspect that you did not bother reading the article to see his various comments.)

(3) Though Stewart may not be uplifting in general, and though I have specific reasons to dispute Stewart's honesty, hey, it's all good - and he and his guests were able to get through the show without wishing murder upon an author for expressing opposing views.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Willton:

You are being absolutely dishonest in presenting Cat Stevens as being a victim of media overstatement. Really, it is sickening to see you so misstate what happened.

Stevens can deny making the statements, but here is what he actually said, in a televised interview:

ONDON, May 22 -- The musician known as Cat Stevens said in a British television program to be broadcast next week that rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author Salman Rushdie, ''I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing.''

The singer, who adopted the name Yusuf Islam when he converted to Islam, made the remark during a panel discussion of British reactions to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's call for Mr. Rushdie to be killed for allegedly blaspheming Islam in his best-selling novel ''The Satanic Verses.'' He also said that if Mr. Rushdie turned up at his doorstep looking for help, ''I might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like.''

''I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is,'' said Mr. Islam, who watched a preview of the program today and said in an interview that he stood by his comments.

So do me the favor of not forcing me to read your justification and support for Yusuf Islam. You are wrong about what he said, and are wrong in claiming that it was perfectly fine to feature him at a rally.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:46 pm 
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More regarding Yusuf Islam's appearance - this from somebody whose comments actually matter.

November 02, 2010

Rushdie: Stewart's Cat Stevens stance 'depressing'

The presence of the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens' was a dissonant note for some, who find it hard to forgive Yusuf Islam's backing calls for the death of the author Salman Rushdie in 1989. Islam has since denied he said these things, but they're pretty clear in the record, and he's never apologized for them.

Among those unhappy to see Islam on stage was Rushdie, who e-mailed Standpoint's Nick Cohen:

I've always liked Stewart and Colbert but what on earth was Cat Yusuf Stevens Islam doing on that stage? If he's a "good Muslim" like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar then I'm the Great Pumpkin. Happy Halloween.

He later added:

I spoke to Jon Stewart about Yusuf Islam's appearance. He said he was sorry it upset me, but really, it was plain that he was fine with it. Depressing.

So still sticking with your "Oh, Islam didn't mean it" and "Bucfan is misstating the situation", Willton?


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Hey, he would not necessarily murder Rushdie personally, unless of course he was in an Islamic nation and a judge had ordered the death.

A wonderful and peaceful man to include in a rally.


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:03 pm 
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From Steven's Blog:
Quote:
Because of imaginary scenarios set by courthouse TV interviewers, in 1989 I was drawn into making stupid and offensive jokes about Rushdie on a program called, ‘Hypotheticals’; however they were meant to lighten the moment and raise a smile – as good ol’ British sense of humor occasionally is known to do – unfortunately for me…it didn’t.

In 1989, during the heat and height of the Satanic Verses controversy, I was silly enough to accept appearing on a program called ‘Hypotheticals’ which posed imaginary scenarios by a well-versed (what if…?) barrister, Geoffrey Robertson QC. I foolishly made light of certain provocative questions. When asked what I’d do if Salman Rushdie entered a restaurant in which I was eating, I said, “I would probably call up Ayatollah Khomeini”; and, rather than go to a demonstration to burn an effigy of the author, I jokingly said I would have preferred that it’d be the “real thing”.

Criticize me for my bad taste, in hindsight, I agree. But these comments were part of a well-known British national trait; a touch of dry humor on my part. Just watch British comedy programs like “Have I Got News For You” or “Extras”, they are full of occasionally grotesque and sardonic jokes if you want them! On one particular broadcast of “Have I got News…” Ian Hislop, the editor of British satirical magazine Private Eye, personally called me “a Shi’ite” (doesn’t take too long to work out with a twist of an English accent what he meant by that).

Certainly I regret giving those sorts of responses now. However, it must be noted that the final edit of the program was made to look extremely serious; hardly any laughs were left in and much common sense was savagely cut out. Most of the Muslim participants in the program wrote in and complained about the narrow and selective use of their comments, surreptitiously selected out of the 3-hour long recording of the debate. But the edit was not in our hands. Balanced arguments were cut out and the most sensational quotes, preserved.


http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/talks_cw.html#20

Whether or not Stevens was taken out of context or not, given what he has written most recently, reasonable people can sanely conclude that he has backtracked from his original statements. As I said earlier, it is clear to me that Stevens regrets making the comments regarding Rushdie. I'm willing to forgive a man for making foolish comments that he later regrets. I'm sorry that you do not have that capacity.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Whether or not Stevens was taken out of context or not ...

Cowardly.

I posted the YouTube clip showing his statement.

Shortly thereafter, he said that he affirmed his statements (about murdering an author who expressed opposing views).

A public relations shill then said something to the effect of, "You know, wishing murder on a writer for setting forth opposing views is probably not a good idea," at which point the scumbag liar Yusuf Islam denied making the statements.

So as between you, me, and the guy who actually has something involved in this issue - Rushdie - I will go with Rushdie. Rushdie has made it clear that Islam has lied about making the statements, and never apologized for making them. He was also disappointed that the nutjob Islam was part of the great celebration of the "little guy," err, other than the ones who should be murdered, I mean.

Willton wrote:
reasonable people can sanely conclude that he has backtracked from his original statements.

See above. The opinion that matters more than any other here is Rushdie's. He specifically refutes your claim that Islam has backed away from his statement or taken any steps that would remotely qualify as an apology.

So let me think ... Willton says "all good" about nutjob's wishing murder on somebody for expressing differing religious/political views. The subject of the threat says, "Uh, not so fast." I accept the comments of the person subject to the threat.

Willton, you are adopting a patently unreasonable position in defending Stewart's decision to feature nutjob, err, Yusuf "I will murder you!!" Islam.

Willton wrote:
I'm willing to forgive a man for making foolish comments that he later regrets.

Who the fuck are you to "forgive" him for these statements?

Such forgiveness, or lack thereof, belongs to Rushdie, not you. What a pompous ass, that you think you can "forgive" his comments.

Willton wrote:
I'm sorry that you do not have that capacity.

As detailed extensively throughout this discussion, I believe that you are a bag of rancid cat feces.

But I forgive myself for voicing such a thought.

Better?


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:40 am 
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Bucfan, you exhaust me. Fine, I guess having Stevens as part of the rally, even though he was a mere performer of music, was a mistake. I don't think it took away from the overarching message being displayed, and I don't think that some distasteful remarks he made over 20 years ago reflects the sum total of what Stevens is, especially in light of the great amount of good work he has done in promoting peace and understanding between the Islamic and Western worlds. But it is clear that the extreme conservatives like yourself have taken a hold of this particular fact and turned it into a political football, and that is unfortunate.

By the way, Bucfan, you're an asshole.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:01 am 
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Willton wrote:
By the way, Bucfan, you're an asshole.

You should forgive yourself for that remark.

And since you have no competent reply, you end the dispute with this.

Nice to see who is "extreme," isn't it? Bias showing, Willton?


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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:13 am 
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I don't begrudge Steward doing what Steward does.

I get scared of those that give weight of meaning to it.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Willton wrote:
By the way, Bucfan, you're an asshole.

You should forgive yourself for that remark.

And since you have no competent reply, you end the dispute with this.

Nice to see who is "extreme," isn't it? Bias showing, Willton?

Fuck you. You want to know what's sad? The whole point of this thread was to champion moderation and civility in discussing politics. Unfortunately, you decided to make it considerably uncivil. You decided to turn this into a mud-slinging contest because you have a big bug up your ass about Jon Stewart poking fun at your idols while not giving enough attention to Barbara Boxer, who is apparently a pariah for the country's woes. In the end, nobody involved likes each other. Congratulations.

I'm sorry I even brought the damn thing up.

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 Post subject: Re: Jon Stewart's Moment of Sincerity
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:26 pm 
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I think it is time to lock this thread. Disagreeing is one thing, but disrespecting someone else and then spewing venom is not the purpose of this board. This is just like the dinner table. Always an issue when politics and religion come into the conversation.

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