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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:20 am 
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We are still the largest manufacturer in the world. China is closing fast, but still not there.

We have let a lot of the heavy, basic, non-technical manufacturing go, though.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:33 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
We are still the largest manufacturer in the world.


I would have to have proof of that. I find that hard to believe. The only things we are making are cars and auto related products and computers to some degree. No other electronics. No clothing to speak of. We do however make plenty of weapons and weapons related products. :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:13 pm 
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and we are still making cars only because gov't intervention saved the industry (and "our" money is being paid back in spades). that's called a good investment.

this poppycock about the "liberals" getting "cocky" is hogwash imho. if anything, they were too damn timid and simply caved to the bullying from the right day after day. in fact, the "liberals" had virtually no say in governance. the vast majority of legislation (despite what you hear from Glen Beck, Rush, Faux News etc) was moderate in nature (as needed to get the Blue Dogs and the Ben Nelsons to come along).

I don't think the d-led congress did a great job -- impossible with the intractable obstinence and constant fillibuster threat -- from the "opposition (wait, aren't we all on the same team? team America?). but what they did do was avert another great depression -- but unfortunately, that wouldn't make a great campaign slogan. and the electorate (at least the minority that actually got their asses to the polls -- an american shame) is too damn impatient. the republicans crashed the economy for eight years. you can't fix everything in 18 months.

now, we'll have 2 years of fiddling while rome burns as absolutely nothing gets accomplished. to those who want "limited government," you now have your wish. will it create a single job? i hope so, but am not optimistic.


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:38 pm 
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I really don't have a problem with some checks and balances in Washington. Very similar to what happened after the first 2 years of the Clinton years. Perhaps some compromise will take place. It was a very negative election season. Not much "what I will do for you" but all "these guys suck". Not holding my breath however. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:04 pm 
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NYC-Buc ... thanks for all your comments, observations and opinions.

But in this area, they actually keep score. Scoreboard says you are not only wrong, but stunningly, amazingly, stupendously wrong.

Sorry to interrupt your reality. Please, go back to it.


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:30 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
We are still the largest manufacturer in the world.


I would have to have proof of that. I find that hard to believe. The only things we are making are cars and auto related products and computers to some degree. No other electronics. No clothing to speak of. We do however make plenty of weapons and weapons related products. :? :? :?


Really Az, it is not even close at this point. We dwarf the world in manufacturing output. The one exception is a fast closing China that will surpass us in about 3 years, I think, at current growth rates.

You have to look at the whole, not just heavy, low tech industry. For example, no one comes close in the precision tooling industries. Or, powdered metals.

We just aren't very competitive at shirt making anymore.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:49 am 
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No Bob, that was no attempt to mention either political party in my post. You know my leanings but that's not at all my intent here.

When people use fear to manipulate voters, we all lose. As I'm sure you see that as we seek more security because of our fear, we willing give up freedoms we think we are protecting. Examples are plenty-- encampment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, torturing prisioners during the Iraq war, listening to phone call and reading Americans mail because we are afraid, stopping a religion from building their place of worship, demanding that some Americans carry papers to prove that they are like the rest of us are some examples of what fear does to the human spirit.

That surely is seen in the politics of elections. In 2004 we heard 'he kept us safe' as a reason to elect W. We went on code Orange several times and all got our plastics sheets and duct tape at the ready right before the re-election of the safety keeper.

We are now being told over and over to fear the Mexican, we were taught to fear the black man especially in the south. Fear the Eastern Europeons in 1890 who would take our jobs or the Irish Catholics would force us all to become papists. In the end most of this fear is based on ignorance of those we don't understand and we end up striking out against them.

All that fear breds hate and that in turn creates a country none of us are proud of. I'm sure you know about the Know-Nothing Party of the 1800s and the KKK, We need to recognize this and work to stop it now. It is not what America is about.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:09 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
No Bob, that was no attempt to mention either political party in my post. You know my leanings but that's not at all my intent here.

When people use fear to manipulate voters, we all lose. As I'm sure you see that as we seek more security because of our fear, we willing give up freedoms we think we are protecting. Examples are plenty-- encampment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, torturing prisioners during the Iraq war, listening to phone call and reading Americans mail because we are afraid, stopping a religion from building their place of worship, demanding that some Americans carry papers to prove that they are like the rest of us are some examples of what fear does to the human spirit.

That surely is seen in the politics of elections. In 2004 we heard 'he kept us safe' as a reason to elect W. We went on code Orange several times and all got our plastics sheets and duct tape at the ready right before the re-election of the safety keeper.

We are now being told over and over to fear the Mexican, we were taught to fear the black man especially in the south. Fear the Eastern Europeons in 1890 who would take our jobs or the Irish Catholics would force us all to become papists. In the end most of this fear is based on ignorance of those we don't understand and we end up striking out against them.

All that fear breds hate and that in turn creates a country none of us are proud of. I'm sure you know about the Know-Nothing Party of the 1800s and the KKK, We need to recognize this and work to stop it now. It is not what America is about.


Here is what I need you to help me understand: You and I live in the greatest country in the history of humankind. The freest. The fairest. The most enlightened. The most prosperous. The most generous. The first to extend help to another country in need. The one place on the planet where those less fortunate would come in a heartbeat if only they could.

And yet you seem to prefer worrying about negatives: fear, hatred, ignorance, shame. Why?

I don't know about you, but I have been to hellholes: Russia. Mexico. Haiti. The Dominican Republic. I've seen almost unimaginable poverty, squalor, degradation. Do you not know that the cornerstone of history is repression? And we're the exception.

I thank the Lord every day that I'm an American. I don't weep for my country; I'm proud of it. And I have faith that enough of my fellow Americans are too smart to fall for hate-mongering. In fact, I think the election earlier this week proved just that.

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:26 am 
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I guess I'm getting pessimistic when I was always optimistic. I believe in history as a guide and it points to a negative future for the U.S.

1. will jobs ever return-- not industrial jobs as our standard of living has caused them to relocate to areas of the world where workers don't live as well and accept low wages. So, we will continue to have a problem finding work for millions of less educated Americans.
2. Education in our country is not important to enough people for us to get beyond our problem. There will be jobs for the educated but a large portion of Americans refuse to consider education as necessary for them and as a group we refuse to pay for it.
3. Even those who deem it important are increasingly finding it impossible to afford without large amounts of debt which cripple them just as they are trying to start life.-- 50,000 to 100,000 or more is commonplace today.
4. Every past world power has risen and then fell. Rome, Spain, England are merely the biggest examples. We look to have reached our max and without some major influx of new technology, we are headed down.
5. In spite of what we say and hope is true, we no longer lead the world in many important areas that determine the quality of life for the future.-- Education and health care are just two areas where we have fallen way behind much of the developed world.
6. We have lost our commitment to each other. As long as we persist in thinking only of ourselves, we will never return to the country we grew up in. The 'I got mine, screw you' attitude is sinking the ship because the weight of those failing is now so heavy that we are all going under and we don't even see it.

There must be some valid reasons that for the first time Americans believe that their kids won't have a better life.

Gesh, I stopping now before I really get down.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
You and I live in the greatest country in the history of humankind. The freest. The fairest. The most enlightened. The most prosperous. The most generous. The first to extend help to another country in need. The one place on the planet where those less fortunate would come in a heartbeat if only they could.


Agreed, 110%

Bob in Boston wrote:
And yet you seem to prefer worrying about negatives: fear, hatred, ignorance, shame.


It is all those who watch Fox News or MSNBC are fed? People believe the dogma. So we should ignore it? Are you saying we can't make it better and should just leave it alone?

Bob in Boston wrote:
the election earlier this week proved just that.


I can only speak for Az. but what I observed was campaign advertising full of fear and paranoia and dirty tricks. This Tea Party was right at the head of the line in this regard.

JMHO :? :? :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:37 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
And yet you seem to prefer worrying about negatives: fear, hatred, ignorance, shame.


It is all those who watch Fox News or MSNBC are fed? People believe the dogma. So we should ignore it? Are you saying we can't make it better and should just leave it alone?


Look, AZ, I respect your opinions, but in this case you could not be more incorrect. Fox News does not feed its viewers negativity. It just doesn't. Critics don't like it because it gives a voice to conservatives. Well, tough $%#! Conservatives certainly don't get equal treatment anywhere else.

But don't equate that with dogma.

At a guess, you're referring to Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. They are men of strong opinions and they ask tough questions. But neither of them shies away from booking liberals/critics of conservatism and giving them adequate time to speak. That is balance.

Don't believe me? Try these:

James Carville
Bill Clinton
Robert Reich, Clinton's former Labor Secretary
Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell
Dennis Kucinich
Rep. Anthony Weiner (D) of New York
Al Sharpton
Alan Colmes
Juan Williams
Kirsten Powers
Susan Estrich
pollsters Pat Caddell and Doug Shoen
Medea Benjamin of Code Pink

Greta van Susteren has had Obama himself on her Fox News show, for heaven's sake. (Admittedly, not since he was elected.)

And so what if the give-and-take can become contentious? Politics is a blood sport and these people didn't make it to the big leagues by being shrinking violets; they can take it.

As for MSNBC, its audience is so puny that it and Fox don't belong in the same conversation.

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