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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:06 am 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Sorry, AZ, but I don't accept your premise.

Twelve million hard-working illegals? Where is quantifiable proof of that: their income tax returns? :lol:


I'm pretty sure 11 million of them live in the house next to me. :o


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:40 am 
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Out in nearby Celeryville, Ohio (Charlie Frye territory) there are many fields where hard working Mexicans work for much less than the
minimum wage. There's not one person on this board who would ever consider doing such a miserable job. There aren't that many illegals..
not even half of one percent of the people in this country. My wife knows a bunch of illegal Filipinos. They have as much right
to be here as anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:13 am 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Twelve million hard-working illegals? Where is quantifiable proof of that: their income tax returns?


Well the ones with fake SS #s and ID are having taxes withdrawn by payroll. They either work or starve. They aren't collecting unemployment or welfare. They do the majority of the meat packing industry in the midwest. If it weren't for them working in the service and resort industry, your beds and rooms would not get cleaned here in the SW. I have had numerous students leave and say they are going back to Mexico because of the lack of construction jobs. Your produce would never get to market. Your lawns would not be mowed. I could go on and on. I see it everyday. You want something done in this area of the country where there is manual labor needed, don;'t call an American, they don't want to do it.

Now about that question I posed. :shock: :shock: :shock:

8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:06 am 
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Ollie wrote:
Out in nearby Celeryville, Ohio (Charlie Frye territory) there are many fields where hard working Mexicans work for much less than the
minimum wage. There's not one person on this board who would ever consider doing such a miserable job. There aren't that many illegals..
not even half of one percent of the people in this country. My wife knows a bunch of illegal Filipinos. They have as much right
to be here as anyone.


There was a survey done a few years ago asking high school seniors who were about to graduate about certain jobs and were asked to fill in what the salary should be for that job. The average salary they gave a farm worker was $125,000 a year.

Now I am sure it's a bit off because most high school students are used to playing video games, surfing the internet, and texting on their phones and dont know what a real day's worth of work is like. But I'm sure there are adults who wouldnt do that work either for the wages they get.

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
Twelve million hard-working illegals? Where is quantifiable proof of that: their income tax returns?


Well the ones with fake SS #s and ID are having taxes withdrawn by payroll. They either work or starve. They aren't collecting unemployment or welfare. They do the majority of the meat packing industry in the midwest. If it weren't for them working in the service and resort industry, your beds and rooms would not get cleaned here in the SW. I have had numerous students leave and say they are going back to Mexico because of the lack of construction jobs. Your produce would never get to market. Your lawns would not be mowed. I could go on and on. I see it everyday. You want something done in this area of the country where there is manual labor needed, don;'t call an American, they don't want to do it.

Now about that question I posed. :shock: :shock: :shock:

8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I could go on and on. I see it everyday. You want something done in this area of the country where there is manual labor needed, don;'t call an American, they don't want to do it...


This is the big argument for allowing this, I suppose. It used to be addressed by a federal worker permit program that seemed to work fine in allowing these folks into the country, allowing them to work in the open, and giving them an eventual pass into citizenship if they wanted it. This program disappeared in the late '50's or early '60's. Not sure exactly why, but I suspect the onset of the minimum wage tied to lower tier union jobs had a lot to do with it.

In any case Az, with unemployment as it is in AZ, if these workers were to disappear one day, how long before the jobs are filled with those American's who need to "work or starve" as you note? I imagine those American's noted earlier who refuse the work, would refuse the work only until there was no more dole for them either in terms of Mom & Dad, or unemployment checks?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:21 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
In any case Az, with unemployment as it is in AZ, if these workers were to disappear one day, how long before the jobs are filled with those American's who need to "work or starve" as you note? I imagine those American's noted earlier who refuse the work, would refuse the work only until there was no more dole for them either in terms of Mom & Dad, or unemployment checks?


Logic would seem to say that would happen but we all know about the reliability of logic. :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:12 am 
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Democrats getting what they deserved today. They had it all in front of them to actually make a difference and do what's best for the country and Nancy Pelosi and her gang of cocky liberals went to far and pissed off America. They got greedy and now they are screwed. Let's see if the new House can make Obama do what's best for the country now.

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:01 am 
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Az - the question you pose, and the theory you present, deserve a thoughtful reply.

I will try to do so in the next few days. However, let me suggest that the claim that "Americans won't do that job" is bullshit. Americans won't do that job for the pathetically low wages that illegal immigrants accept, that is true, but our country did manage to harvest crops and build houses between 1900 and 1980, without millions of illegal immigrants.

How? Why? Because those jobs paid a decent wage. And guess what ... a person could actually work in construction or farming and earn enough to pay his bills.

Funny how the absurdly low wages are concommitant with illegal immigration ...


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:19 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
Americans won't do that job for the pathetically low wages that illegal immigrants accept


Or is it what the employer offers. Az is a right to work state. For example, the school district I work for can say to me, this is what we will pay you. Your choice is to take it or leave it. They have no legal obligation to negotiate in any way. I have taken a pay cut two years running and honestly doubt if I will get a pay increase anytime in the foreseeable future.

The problem in America is that we don't make or produce much of anything at all anymore. Mainly because Americans don't want to pay for products that would be more expensive to produce in America. Just look at our trade deficit.


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:20 am 
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We are still the largest manufacturer in the world. China is closing fast, but still not there.

We have let a lot of the heavy, basic, non-technical manufacturing go, though.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:33 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
We are still the largest manufacturer in the world.


I would have to have proof of that. I find that hard to believe. The only things we are making are cars and auto related products and computers to some degree. No other electronics. No clothing to speak of. We do however make plenty of weapons and weapons related products. :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:13 pm 
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and we are still making cars only because gov't intervention saved the industry (and "our" money is being paid back in spades). that's called a good investment.

this poppycock about the "liberals" getting "cocky" is hogwash imho. if anything, they were too damn timid and simply caved to the bullying from the right day after day. in fact, the "liberals" had virtually no say in governance. the vast majority of legislation (despite what you hear from Glen Beck, Rush, Faux News etc) was moderate in nature (as needed to get the Blue Dogs and the Ben Nelsons to come along).

I don't think the d-led congress did a great job -- impossible with the intractable obstinence and constant fillibuster threat -- from the "opposition (wait, aren't we all on the same team? team America?). but what they did do was avert another great depression -- but unfortunately, that wouldn't make a great campaign slogan. and the electorate (at least the minority that actually got their asses to the polls -- an american shame) is too damn impatient. the republicans crashed the economy for eight years. you can't fix everything in 18 months.

now, we'll have 2 years of fiddling while rome burns as absolutely nothing gets accomplished. to those who want "limited government," you now have your wish. will it create a single job? i hope so, but am not optimistic.


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:38 pm 
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I really don't have a problem with some checks and balances in Washington. Very similar to what happened after the first 2 years of the Clinton years. Perhaps some compromise will take place. It was a very negative election season. Not much "what I will do for you" but all "these guys suck". Not holding my breath however. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:04 pm 
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NYC-Buc ... thanks for all your comments, observations and opinions.

But in this area, they actually keep score. Scoreboard says you are not only wrong, but stunningly, amazingly, stupendously wrong.

Sorry to interrupt your reality. Please, go back to it.


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:30 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
We are still the largest manufacturer in the world.


I would have to have proof of that. I find that hard to believe. The only things we are making are cars and auto related products and computers to some degree. No other electronics. No clothing to speak of. We do however make plenty of weapons and weapons related products. :? :? :?


Really Az, it is not even close at this point. We dwarf the world in manufacturing output. The one exception is a fast closing China that will surpass us in about 3 years, I think, at current growth rates.

You have to look at the whole, not just heavy, low tech industry. For example, no one comes close in the precision tooling industries. Or, powdered metals.

We just aren't very competitive at shirt making anymore.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:49 am 
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No Bob, that was no attempt to mention either political party in my post. You know my leanings but that's not at all my intent here.

When people use fear to manipulate voters, we all lose. As I'm sure you see that as we seek more security because of our fear, we willing give up freedoms we think we are protecting. Examples are plenty-- encampment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, torturing prisioners during the Iraq war, listening to phone call and reading Americans mail because we are afraid, stopping a religion from building their place of worship, demanding that some Americans carry papers to prove that they are like the rest of us are some examples of what fear does to the human spirit.

That surely is seen in the politics of elections. In 2004 we heard 'he kept us safe' as a reason to elect W. We went on code Orange several times and all got our plastics sheets and duct tape at the ready right before the re-election of the safety keeper.

We are now being told over and over to fear the Mexican, we were taught to fear the black man especially in the south. Fear the Eastern Europeons in 1890 who would take our jobs or the Irish Catholics would force us all to become papists. In the end most of this fear is based on ignorance of those we don't understand and we end up striking out against them.

All that fear breds hate and that in turn creates a country none of us are proud of. I'm sure you know about the Know-Nothing Party of the 1800s and the KKK, We need to recognize this and work to stop it now. It is not what America is about.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:09 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
No Bob, that was no attempt to mention either political party in my post. You know my leanings but that's not at all my intent here.

When people use fear to manipulate voters, we all lose. As I'm sure you see that as we seek more security because of our fear, we willing give up freedoms we think we are protecting. Examples are plenty-- encampment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, torturing prisioners during the Iraq war, listening to phone call and reading Americans mail because we are afraid, stopping a religion from building their place of worship, demanding that some Americans carry papers to prove that they are like the rest of us are some examples of what fear does to the human spirit.

That surely is seen in the politics of elections. In 2004 we heard 'he kept us safe' as a reason to elect W. We went on code Orange several times and all got our plastics sheets and duct tape at the ready right before the re-election of the safety keeper.

We are now being told over and over to fear the Mexican, we were taught to fear the black man especially in the south. Fear the Eastern Europeons in 1890 who would take our jobs or the Irish Catholics would force us all to become papists. In the end most of this fear is based on ignorance of those we don't understand and we end up striking out against them.

All that fear breds hate and that in turn creates a country none of us are proud of. I'm sure you know about the Know-Nothing Party of the 1800s and the KKK, We need to recognize this and work to stop it now. It is not what America is about.


Here is what I need you to help me understand: You and I live in the greatest country in the history of humankind. The freest. The fairest. The most enlightened. The most prosperous. The most generous. The first to extend help to another country in need. The one place on the planet where those less fortunate would come in a heartbeat if only they could.

And yet you seem to prefer worrying about negatives: fear, hatred, ignorance, shame. Why?

I don't know about you, but I have been to hellholes: Russia. Mexico. Haiti. The Dominican Republic. I've seen almost unimaginable poverty, squalor, degradation. Do you not know that the cornerstone of history is repression? And we're the exception.

I thank the Lord every day that I'm an American. I don't weep for my country; I'm proud of it. And I have faith that enough of my fellow Americans are too smart to fall for hate-mongering. In fact, I think the election earlier this week proved just that.

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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:26 am 
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I guess I'm getting pessimistic when I was always optimistic. I believe in history as a guide and it points to a negative future for the U.S.

1. will jobs ever return-- not industrial jobs as our standard of living has caused them to relocate to areas of the world where workers don't live as well and accept low wages. So, we will continue to have a problem finding work for millions of less educated Americans.
2. Education in our country is not important to enough people for us to get beyond our problem. There will be jobs for the educated but a large portion of Americans refuse to consider education as necessary for them and as a group we refuse to pay for it.
3. Even those who deem it important are increasingly finding it impossible to afford without large amounts of debt which cripple them just as they are trying to start life.-- 50,000 to 100,000 or more is commonplace today.
4. Every past world power has risen and then fell. Rome, Spain, England are merely the biggest examples. We look to have reached our max and without some major influx of new technology, we are headed down.
5. In spite of what we say and hope is true, we no longer lead the world in many important areas that determine the quality of life for the future.-- Education and health care are just two areas where we have fallen way behind much of the developed world.
6. We have lost our commitment to each other. As long as we persist in thinking only of ourselves, we will never return to the country we grew up in. The 'I got mine, screw you' attitude is sinking the ship because the weight of those failing is now so heavy that we are all going under and we don't even see it.

There must be some valid reasons that for the first time Americans believe that their kids won't have a better life.

Gesh, I stopping now before I really get down.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: So sad to see election day almost upon us ...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
You and I live in the greatest country in the history of humankind. The freest. The fairest. The most enlightened. The most prosperous. The most generous. The first to extend help to another country in need. The one place on the planet where those less fortunate would come in a heartbeat if only they could.


Agreed, 110%

Bob in Boston wrote:
And yet you seem to prefer worrying about negatives: fear, hatred, ignorance, shame.


It is all those who watch Fox News or MSNBC are fed? People believe the dogma. So we should ignore it? Are you saying we can't make it better and should just leave it alone?

Bob in Boston wrote:
the election earlier this week proved just that.


I can only speak for Az. but what I observed was campaign advertising full of fear and paranoia and dirty tricks. This Tea Party was right at the head of the line in this regard.

JMHO :? :? :? :? :?


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