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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Many areas but I don't want to continue arguing, Bob.

You seem to think that I'm negative about the country. I am not at all. Remember the Progressive movement at the turn of the 20th century.(I'm almost old enough to have lived it). Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican President, and one of the very best, brought about many changes to improve the lot of the average man. Started the eight hour day, workers comp, child labor laws, and many others. No one accusses him of being negative, and he sure advocated and completed many necessary changes to our country. I at least think he improved things by regulating the Robber Barons who had free reign and abused their underlings.

That's really the direction my argument is intended to go. We need change to improve things. To point out areas that need change does not make a person negative but actually progressive. The BS about love it or leave it, is just that- BS. We all have a responsibility to try to make things better. To refuse to want to do that makes one somewhat unamerican.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:53 pm 
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Once again, I am only speaking of my personal experience with NCLB. That said, Ted Kennedy is about as far out of touch with anything outside the beltway as they come. I don't like any of the twits inside 1-95.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:02 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Many areas but I don't want to continue arguing, Bob.


Sub, I don't regard what we've been doing as an argument.

Having said that, I've long since tired of President Bush being held responsible for all that's not ideal in this country. He isn't. He didn't send Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans, he didn't make the I-35 bridge collapse in Minneapolis last summer, he didn't cause homelessness, climate change, the high price of gasoline, the subprime lending mess, or the falling value of the dollar. And it's not because of him that those stinking Islamist swine targeted us on 9/11.

He was legitimately elected, no matter what his political opponents or the news media would have you believe. It was razor-close, but he was elected, not selected. To try to get off on the right foot, when he came to Washington, he reached the hand of friendship across the aisle, and the Democrats bit it. That's not his fault; it's theirs.

He isn't particularly articulate, which many of us find embarrassing. I wish he hadn't signed McCain-Feingold and had been tougher on illegal immigration and Iran. But I happen to work in the news media -- always have. And I gotta tell you, the way reporters and twits like Keith Olbermann and Bill Maher, who aren't fit to wipe the dust off his cowboy boots, mock him every day of his life is positively disgraceful. It's no wonder that people think badly of him when that's all they hear on TV and read in the papers.

And as I've said before on this board, I don't give a %$#! what the Europeans or people anywhere else in the world think of us. The US, no matter who is in the White House, is the greatest and most generous country in human history. With precious few exceptions, they're no help to us, much less grateful, and we damn well don't need their approval.

One more point: I may be closer to you in age than anyone else on this board. I have two grown children: a son and a daughter, who are the loves of my life. My son is a volunteer firefighter. My daughter, in September 2001, lived in an apartment one block -- one block -- from the motel where those bastards stayed the night before they hijacked the planes at Logan Airport. I think of that almost every day, realizing she might have seen them on the street and assumed they were perfectly normal people. Two years later, she accepted a job in midtown Manhattan. To get to work, she rides public transportation into the city five days a week. George W. Bush's administration has kept her safe. For that alone, I'm willing to cut him a lot of slack.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:48 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:

We need change to improve things.


One of the great shibboleth's of the modern area, that has got us into the current mess.
Constant tinkering with tradition and custom has affected the entire fabric of society. When politicians meddle in affairs they invariably mess things up. Their motives are usually self-seeking, and thus 'reforms' are not fully thought through. Single-issue lobbyists persuade them based on one side of the argument only. They (the politocos) then decide that they know better than the silent majority and impose laws based on inadequate principles.
And thus you get the "Nanny state". Interfering in every aspect of life and producing a detrimental effect on the entire fabric of society and thus the life of the common man.
I challenge anyone to find an example of where 'things' are better than they were 50 years ago, particularly in an individual sense of community and moral values.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:28 am 
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First you have to define 'life not being better' in the last 50 years.

My family compared to my father's family is living much better with less real income.
We have air conditioning, two cars, vacations, dish washer, disposal, monster TV, many TVs, recorder, Cable TV, surround sound, computers wireless phones, cell phones, digital cameras. My father's family had none of those or the many other things which make life easier for us.

All of that has happened because we live in this country and have the most advanced economic system in the world. I dispute none of that. I am proud to be in this country.

If the issue is moral values, again it needs to be defined. To some, the fact that gays have some rights today is seen as going down hill, that we have lost our moral values. I would suggest that in fact the treating of all of God's children equally is a moral improvement. There are other issues where your perspective helps formulate your opinion. Just because one has a certain religion's views does not necessarily make them correct for everyone.
Additionally, government has no business in dictating moral values, except in areas where they garentee equal treatment of people, i.e. laws against violence, to protect property rights, stopping the unfair treatment on people by others. It should not dictate any Christian concepts on people. Before you think otherwise, I am a Christian. I just believe that those of other views have every right to live here the way they want, without government telling them they are immoral and must stop. The absurd makes the point -- Georgia until the courts struck it down, had a law against gay behavior in one's own home. That the government could come into your bedroom and arrest you for sleeping with someone of the same sex. Government has no business there except to protect people from being taken advantage of (rape, incest).
Some see that as immoral behavior that must be stopped. I just don't.

Again, I am not Gay nor do I have any close friends who are. I am a Christian. I like to think that I examine things and don't accept them because that is the way it is. It bothers me that I feel I need to explain that to anyone reading this.

So, to gage the recent turns in our country as worse in the last 50 years, takes some definition in my opinion.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:20 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Additionally, government has no business in dictating moral values, except in areas where they garentee equal treatment of people, i.e. laws against violence, to protect property rights, stopping the unfair treatment on people by others. It should not dictate any Christian concepts on people. Before you think otherwise, I am a Christian. I just believe that those of other views have every right to live here the way they want, without government telling them they are immoral and must stop.


But how are you going to stop elected representatives from writing and passing legislation that you don't agree with? Over time, they can be voted out one by one, but that just doesn't happen en masse. There always are going to be constituencies that want certain restrictions imposed on the rest of us.

As for same-sex marriage, I can't recall offhand the number of states that have put the issue on the November ballot in the form of a referendum. But it's close to half, and they've all been defeated, usually by landslides. Then the courts come along and strike them down.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
I challenge anyone to find an example of where 'things' are better than they were 50 years ago, particularly in an individual sense of community and moral values.


Women and minorities have higher earning power and more status. We had a woman and still have a black man ruuning to be the most important & powerful "person"(not man)in the world. Moral value?..or do you mean church values? One thing for sure is the seperation of church and state is different. God has been taken out of the Schools, but this country was founded on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas Iraq Illegal immigrants
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Location: Wheeling, WV
Bob --

I've enjoyed the back and forth with you on this. It is obvious to me that you are a thoughtful person. While you and I may not agree, I have a growing respect for your honesty and thought process. Let me end this by saying 'you have every right to express your wrong ideas'. LOL LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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