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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
By the way, the reason I bring this up is because I am looking for answers regarding whether everyone should have health insurance or not and how it should be done. Morally, it seems they should, but from a logical point it seems they shouldn't.


Why? I'm 23 and, to steal a phrase from Stewie Griffin, 'Pink as a Pistol'. I work out three times a week at least and eat as healthy as possible, with no family history of heart disease or anything else crippling or debilitating. I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket. That's my choice.

Furthermore, not all people can afford healthcare and should not me mandated to do so. However, with this bill, one can conclude that the government is telling American citizens what they can afford, how much of it and if it's acceptable.

Willton wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Never in history, has it been mandated that you buy something to be a citizen. This is blatantly unconstitutional, though that means nothing to this congress.

Is it? Care to render your constitutional argument for invalidation of this bill?

By the way, the government makes us do things all the time. Currently, the government mandates that every 18-year-old male citizen must sign up for the selective service. If you don't, there are serious consequences regarding citizenship. How is that less objectionable than making you buy something?


Signing up for selective service does not guarantee that one will be called into service. And there is no mandated monetary amount one has to pay to sign up or if they are never called into service. It costs nothing and there are ways to get out of having to do it.

Substitute2 wrote:
For all you gloom and doom guys-- think about this:
The stock market including those involving medicine went up Monday and is up another 35 points this morning. Guess the money folks don't agree that the country is about to collapse.


The way I heard it, it may be because with this bill it means that insurance will be MANDATORY. That being the case, insurance companies can lay off insurance agents and/or other workers who are on the payroll to promote sales of insurance.

Insurance companies stand to make money with this new plan because now everyone will HAVE to have insurance plans that are deemed 'acceptable' by the government and [probably] hire less workers.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:35 am 
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Willton wrote:
I don't. I'm comparing the burden on the individual in each scenario.


The burden of signing up for selective service is possibly mental (fear, anxiety, etc) and possibly physical (in the event one is chosen for service and sent into combat. It is strictly hypothetical.

The burden of the new healthcare reform is monetary, monthly and yearly for life. It is almost definite.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:36 am 
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Also, I love how we are the heroes who freed the people of Iraq from tyranny story. Okay, fine. If that's what our government's agenda is, I can live with that. Freedom is a great thing. So when are we going to North Korea? When are we going to Venezuela? What about half of Africa?


Some of these situations could be handled by a simple regime change, especially in Iran.

Quote:
That's part of the problem. I have plenty of friends that are Muslims and they are god-fearing, good people. So if I go live with them, what's going to happen?


They live here in America? That's not so tough is it? You know what I meant, go live with the folks of Afghanistan or those in Iran and see exactly how oppressed they are and then tell me that you aren't interested in helping them. I'm suprised that your "muslim" friends aren't as upset about the treatment of "their people," unless... that is what they consider normal life. To that extent, I'd ask, why are they here in America?

Quote:
And although Hussein was a ruthless leader, the enemy we created after we go rid of him is much more dangerous to Americans safety than he ever was.


That enemy you are referring to is Iran? If so, they have been an enemy since the regime change in 1979(thanks to Pres Carter and his outstanding foreign policy). Considering the two countries warred against each other, us removing Hussein from power probably wasn't to distrubing to Iran.

The concept that you are missing is the simple fact that America hasn't "created" and enemy with the Middle East, their hate is attached to the Christian basis our country was founded and operates on. Our support of Isreal(which is the most hated nation in the world) is one of the top reasons that we are targeted.

The only enemy that America is "creating" is Isreal, with the WH snubs and the indulgent behavior of Obama towards them. Believe me, Isreal would be the most dangerous enemy that we'd ever have.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:16 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
Why? I'm 23 and, to steal a phrase from Stewie Griffin, 'Pink as a Pistol'. I work out three times a week at least and eat as healthy as possible, with no family history of heart disease or anything else crippling or debilitating. I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket. That's my choice.


This. I didn't have health insurance until I was 27 years old and starting a family. That was my choice as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:24 am 
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[quote="NSMaster56"]Why? I'm 23 and, to steal a phrase from Stewie Griffin, 'Pink as a Pistol'. I work out three times a week at least and eat as healthy as possible, with no family history of heart disease or anything else crippling or debilitating. I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket. That's my choice.

Furthermore, not all people can afford healthcare and should not me mandated to do so. However, with this bill, one can conclude that the government is telling American citizens what they can afford, how much of it and if it's acceptable.[quote]

Bad way to look at it NS. Let's say you find out you have cancer next week and that could happen no matter how healthy your lifestyle is or how clean your family history is. What happens when you don't have enough money to pay for treatment? What should happen to you? Should you be left to die?

That's the question a lot of people won't answer because deep down inside the answer is yes and that doesn't make them look too good.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:43 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Some of these situations could be handled by a simple regime change, especially in Iran.


Wait, you said we were justified to go to Iraq and Afghanistan to free these people from tyranny. And now you are saying that simple regime changes will happen in the other countries? Why didn't they happen in Iraq and Afghanistan then? Why did we have to get involved? And if you think simple regime change is coming in North Korea any time soon, well, you will be waiting a long time. And they are more danger to us than Iraq ever was.

Piratefan13 wrote:
They live here in America? That's not so tough is it? You know what I meant, go live with the folks of Afghanistan or those in Iran and see exactly how oppressed they are and then tell me that you aren't interested in helping them. I'm suprised that your "muslim" friends aren't as upset about the treatment of "their people," unless... that is what they consider normal life. To that extent, I'd ask, why are they here in America?


Why don't you talk about the people who are oppressed in our country? And again,what about the oppressed people in Venezuela? Why aren't we going to help them? Why aren't you raising the roof on that "Christian" nation being oppressed? Shouldn't they be the first ones we help considering they are just like us?

Piratefan13 wrote:
That enemy you are referring to is Iran? If so, they have been an enemy since the regime change in 1979(thanks to Pres Carter and his outstanding foreign policy). Considering the two countries warred against each other, us removing Hussein from power probably wasn't to distrubing to Iran. The concept that you are missing is the simple fact that America hasn't "created" and enemy with the Middle East, their hate is attached to the Christian basis our country was founded and operates on. Our support of Isreal(which is the most hated nation in the world) is one of the top reasons that we are targeted.


You are missing the point. Why is Iran dangerous? Because of the religious fundamentalists. The same reason Iraq will become dangerous again once we are gone and there is a civil war. Hussein was in it for his own glory, not his God. Heck, the most dangerous people in this country are the religious fundamentalists. Religion is a dangerous and powerful factor in all of the world.

And our government was not formed on Christian basis by the way. It was actually formed on the freedom of religion. Because Christianity is the majority in this country means squat. It just means they have a more powerful voice in our country. A Christian has no more rights than a Jew or Muslim or Atheist in this country. And if you think the Christian way is the way this country should be ruled because it is a majority than you shouldn't even be posting on this thread because the majority who passed health care (The Dems) would be the right because they are the majority.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:19 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Bad way to look at it NS. Let's say you find out you have cancer next week and that could happen no matter how healthy your lifestyle is or how clean your family history is. What happens when you don't have enough money to pay for treatment? What should happen to you? Should you be left to die?

That's the question a lot of people won't answer because deep down inside the answer is yes and that doesn't make them look too good.


How do you equate NS's choice not to have health insurance with leaving people to die?


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:41 am 
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NSMaster56 wrote:
I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket.


There are more reasons for health care than illness. If you are injured in some way, car accident for example and catastrophic costs are incurred and you cannot pay them, then who who pays the bill? Us, the tax payer that is who.

What is done to pay the health bills of those who can't pay. The tax payer foots the bill.

Your explanation is short sighted. Try and see the big picture.\

JMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Bad way to look at it NS. Let's say you find out you have cancer next week and that could happen no matter how healthy your lifestyle is or how clean your family history is. What happens when you don't have enough money to pay for treatment? What should happen to you? Should you be left to die?

That's the question a lot of people won't answer because deep down inside the answer is yes and that doesn't make them look too good.


How do you equate NS's choice not to have health insurance with leaving people to die?


NS has no health insurance. He gets cancer. The money to keep him alive is $500,000 with everything hospital bills, the specialist they had to bring in, etc. He has $250,000 in his bank account. After the $250,000 is gone, what should happen to him? He can't pay the rest of the bills. So should the surgeon say "Sorry, but you don't have enough money to pay the bill. I can't perform the life saving surgery."?

That's where I am coming from with letting people die. Some people will say yes, you should die. You chose not to have health insurance so why should anyone else pay for you. The morality of it is a tough question. If you don't have health insurance, most people morally won't let you die. So who pays for it? Who picks up the tab?

If that was the case, why would anyone get health insurance if someone else is going to pay for it. I will just wait until I get sick and then worry about it.

This is why if you don't have insurance coverage for three months and then you pick it up, it won't cover any pre-existing condition for one year (in PA). It is to prevent people from getting health insurance just when they need it.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Sorry BB, but until someone can explain to me how $500 billion carved out of Medicare will NOT negatively impact senior citizens quality of life, I will refuse to engage in battles of moral equivocacy. For the record, I'm all for healthcare for everyone, but this legislation is not the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:10 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket.


There are more reasons for health care than illness. If you are injured in some way, car accident for example and catastrophic costs are incurred and you cannot pay them, then who who pays the bill? Us, the tax payer that is who.

What is done to pay the health bills of those who can't pay. The tax payer foots the bill.

Your explanation is short sighted. Try and see the big picture.\

JMHO.


The founding with your big picture is that it's incompatible with the principles this country was founded upon. If universal health care is something you really desire, there are plenty of countries around the world that would welcome you with open arms.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket.


There are more reasons for health care than illness. If you are injured in some way, car accident for example and catastrophic costs are incurred and you cannot pay them, then who who pays the bill? Us, the tax payer that is who.

What is done to pay the health bills of those who can't pay. The tax payer foots the bill.

Your explanation is short sighted. Try and see the big picture.\

JMHO.


The founding with your big picture is that it's incompatible with the principles this country was founded upon. If universal health care is something you really desire, there are plenty of countries around the world that would welcome you with open arms.


Or just move to Massachusetts where their wonderful "universal" system is a few years short of total collapse. Unless of course they cut benefits and raise taxes.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket.


There are more reasons for health care than illness. If you are injured in some way, car accident for example and catastrophic costs are incurred and you cannot pay them, then who who pays the bill? Us, the tax payer that is who.

What is done to pay the health bills of those who can't pay. The tax payer foots the bill.

Your explanation is short sighted. Try and see the big picture.\

JMHO.


The founding with your big picture is that it's incompatible with the principles this country was founded upon. If universal health care is something you really desire, there are plenty of countries around the world that would welcome you with open arms.

I suppose you would be in favor of letting the person who has no health insurance die because he cannot afford to pay for life-saving medicine/surgery/treatment?

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:38 pm 
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When the country was founded they were still "bleeding" people . That was health care at the time and our first president died from it. The founding fathers had no idea what what "health" care was so there is no validity in that argument.

Someone explain to me how it works in numerous countries around the world like France, England and Canada and why it can't work here?

An American citizen can go to one of these countries and if something happens to them while there, they are even covered.

We are not a very compassionate society in regards to health care it would seem.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Someone explain to me how it works in numerous countries around the world like France, England and Canada and why it can't work here?


They go/are bankrupt, cut back services, let people die based on their perceived benefit to society and the need to ration. Those that can, come here for first rate service.

Quote:
An American citizen can go to one of these countries and if something happens to them while there, they are even covered.


In any country, including ours, immediate need is addressed. You have a heart attack in the US, you get emergency treatment. You get one in France, you get treatment. You have chronic condition in the US, you can get treated under a myriad of programs, including Medicaid. You have a chronic condition in Canada, England and France, you get in line and wait.

Quote:
We are not a very compassionate society in regards to health care it would seem.


Compassion is mis-identified when it is reduced to giving everyone everything, all the time.

You asked earlier to see the big picture. How big? Social Security - Broke. This year now, not in 2016. Now in the red. Medicare and Medicaid - Broke and headed for insolvency. National Debt rushing passed 20% of GDP (the breakeven point for a society) so fast you'd think it a Corvette. Debt projected by the very same CBO used by the Dems for this bill, to reach 90% of GDP by 2020.

How compassionate is a country that collapses under debt, or tries to inflate its way out of that?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:11 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
Why? I'm 23 and, to steal a phrase from Stewie Griffin, 'Pink as a Pistol'. I work out three times a week at least and eat as healthy as possible, with no family history of heart disease or anything else crippling or debilitating. I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket. That's my choice.

Furthermore, not all people can afford healthcare and should not me mandated to do so. However, with this bill, one can conclude that the government is telling American citizens what they can afford, how much of it and if it's acceptable.
Quote:

Bad way to look at it NS. Let's say you find out you have cancer next week and that could happen no matter how healthy your lifestyle is or how clean your family history is. What happens when you don't have enough money to pay for treatment? What should happen to you? Should you be left to die?

That's the question a lot of people won't answer because deep down inside the answer is yes and that doesn't make them look too good.


While a valid point, I will not live in fear. I've survived two tours in Iraq, so I'll take my chances with cancer (or whatever other disease may come my way).

I don't need health insurance, I don't need life insurance (what I believe to be a grand old scam) and I don't need to waste the money on it becuase one day I MAY get sick and/or die.

Strangely enough, this is one of the few areas (subjects) in life where I am truly 'carpe diem'.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:
I don't NEED health insurance and if I do get sick or a medical problem I will just have to pay for it out of pocket.


There are more reasons for health care than illness. If you are injured in some way, car accident for example and catastrophic costs are incurred and you cannot pay them, then who who pays the bill? Us, the tax payer that is who.

What is done to pay the health bills of those who can't pay. The tax payer foots the bill.

Your explanation is short sighted. Try and see the big picture.\

JMHO.


Well, for the next six month's I'm fully covered by the military, so I have no worries. Once that runs out, I'll take my chances. And if push comes to shove, I'll pay the bill. Cause and effect, in the event of, if I am forced to get medical treatment no taxpayers will pay the bill---I will step up and take responsibility.

Also, I don't drive, so I don't have to worry about car injuries (except for rare instances where I ride in cars, not more than half a dozen times a week). (Also for the record, less related some, I don't have cable or satelite TV, a car, life insurance or many other things that are my choice to pay for and shouldn't be forced to get)

And yes, it is shortsighted, but many younger people do not need health insurance (if they've taken care of themselves in their youth) except in rare instances.

What it comes down to for me is, it's my money that I have earned and I should be the one who decides how and why to spend it---NOT the government. They may be able to look at my income and whatnot and say 'you can afford it', but that's beside the point because I'm the only one who knows that for sure.

I may have bills or sick family member, etc, other reasons why I cannot or choose not to get health insurance. Whatever the reason, if I don't want it, I shouldn't be forced to pay for it.

That's America and that's what (used to) makes it great.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:29 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
NS has no health insurance. He gets cancer. The money to keep him alive is $500,000 with everything hospital bills, the specialist they had to bring in, etc. He has $250,000 in his bank account. After the $250,000 is gone, what should happen to him? He can't pay the rest of the bills. So should the surgeon say "Sorry, but you don't have enough money to pay the bill. I can't perform the life saving surgery."?

That's where I am coming from with letting people die. Some people will say yes, you should die. You chose not to have health insurance so why should anyone else pay for you. The morality of it is a tough question. If you don't have health insurance, most people morally won't let you die. So who pays for it? Who picks up the tab?

If that was the case, why would anyone get health insurance if someone else is going to pay for it. I will just wait until I get sick and then worry about it.

This is why if you don't have insurance coverage for three months and then you pick it up, it won't cover any pre-existing condition for one year (in PA). It is to prevent people from getting health insurance just when they need it.


Hehe, if I get cancer at my age then in my opinion I have more problems than how to pay for it. :D

More seriously...

I think the issue with disease (to me) is HOW is it gotten?

At my age, if I contract (non-hereditary) cancer, perhaps it's because I smoke like Dale Gribble or tan more than Matthew McConaughey. So maybe I deserve it.

Same thing with say... STD's. If I'm dumb enough to have alot of unprotected sex and get an STD, perhaps I deserve to get it. So the problem is mine and I guess I'll have to pay the bill (if I have no insurance).

I truly believe in personal responsibility. I've been burned by it and other times made it out unscathed.

So while I see your point and it's quite valid, I will take my chances and face any consequences to my actions.

I have a 17 and the dealer is showing a low card... whether I hit or stay, win or lose, I'll live with it.

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Last edited by NSMaster56 on Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:33 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
When the country was founded they were still "bleeding" people . That was health care at the time and our first president died from it. The founding fathers had no idea what what "health" care was so there is no validity in that argument.

Someone explain to me how it works in numerous countries around the world like France, England and Canada and why it can't work here?

An American citizen can go to one of these countries and if something happens to them while there, they are even covered.

We are not a very compassionate society in regards to health care it would seem.


1. Because we have between 3-10x the population as those countries (individually) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... population
2. They have socialized healthcare.
3. Our system is run by corporations that want profits while being bogged down with often needless litigation
4. Our education system is horrible and we don't produce enough [good] doctors, which could potentially create competition in the market and lower costs or at least allow for more people being treated.
5. We live in a society where pills and medication are the solution to just about every problem.

That's just off the top of my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Sorry BB, but until someone can explain to me how $500 billion carved out of Medicare will NOT negatively impact senior citizens quality of life, I will refuse to engage in battles of moral equivocacy. For the record, I'm all for healthcare for everyone, but this legislation is not the answer.


I never said anything about the legislation Silver. I was talking about the morality of health care in general. Like I have said before, I am not sure if this legislation is good or bad, but I am wondering if it is a good thing for everyone to have it. My point was the consequences if someone doesn't.

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