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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:30 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Sorry BB, but until someone can explain to me how $500 billion carved out of Medicare will NOT negatively impact senior citizens quality of life, I will refuse to engage in battles of moral equivocacy. For the record, I'm all for healthcare for everyone, but this legislation is not the answer.


I never said anything about the legislation Silver. I was talking about the morality of health care in general. Like I have said before, I am not sure if this legislation is good or bad, but I am wondering if it is a good thing for everyone to have it. My point was the consequences if someone doesn't.


I thought this discussion was about the legislation. Can you legislate morality? Is that the role of government? I know your heart is in the right place, that's a good thing, but my point is that from what I can gather, we are jeopardizing the quality of healthcare for some, for the benefits of others. AT&T (can't wait for the first mention of "big business")is already saying that they'll incur a $1 billion dollar hit to their books in order to compensate for the extra expenses related for implementing this new legislation. Furthermore, this may impact their ability to provide healthcare for their retired and current employees. A bunch of other big companies are saying the same thing. So the people Pelosi et al. trotted out for sympathy will get theirs, but others will pay the price. Is that morally just? Again, healthcare reform is needed, but this was the wrong way to do it, and sadly there are no do overs.

Quote:
Also on Friday, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., said they are asking the CEOs of Caterpillar, Verizon, Deere and others to testify at an April 21 House subcommittee hearing on claims that the health care law could hurt their ability to provide health insurance to workers.



Ummm shouldn't this have been done BEFORE the law was passed?!?!?!?


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:35 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Sorry BB, but until someone can explain to me how $500 billion carved out of Medicare will NOT negatively impact senior citizens quality of life, I will refuse to engage in battles of moral equivocacy. For the record, I'm all for healthcare for everyone, but this legislation is not the answer.


I never said anything about the legislation Silver. I was talking about the morality of health care in general. Like I have said before, I am not sure if this legislation is good or bad, but I am wondering if it is a good thing for everyone to have it. My point was the consequences if someone doesn't.


I thought this discussion was about the legislation. Can you legislate morality? Is that the role of government? I know your heart is in the right place, that's a good thing, but my point is that from what I can gather, we are jeopardizing the quality of healthcare for some, for the benefits of others. AT&T (can't wait for the first mention of "big business")is already saying that they'll incur a $1 billion dollar hit to their books in order to compensate for the extra expenses related for implementing this new legislation. Furthermore, this may impact their ability to provide healthcare for their retired and current employees. A bunch of other big companies are saying the same thing. So the people Pelosi et al. trotted out for sympathy will get theirs, but others will pay the price. Is that morally just? Again, healthcare reform is needed, but this was the wrong way to do it, and sadly there are no do overs.

Quote:
Also on Friday, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., said they are asking the CEOs of Caterpillar, Verizon, Deere and others to testify at an April 21 House subcommittee hearing on claims that the health care law could hurt their ability to provide health insurance to workers.



Ummm shouldn't this have been done BEFORE the law was passed?!?!?!?


You will have to excuse me if I don't shed a tear for companies like AT&T who have been using tax loopholes for years while making billions of dollars in profits. Did you know your tax dollars have been subsidizing AT&T retirees benefits for several years now? Talk about Socialism. It's Coroprate Socialism.

If they choose to screw their employees over, it's because of corporate greed, nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:33 am 
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A couple things that upset me about this argument:

1. This thought that uninsured people are being told to go die. That's crap. If you have a heart attack, you will be treated immediately, regardless of your ability to pay. If you have cancer, you will be treated. You will be told how much the care costs, and you will be given the choice whether or not to undergo the treatment. Hospitals have free care funds, will work with you to set up payment plans, etc. Often, private payers pay far less than what insurance companies are billed. It pisses me off, quite frankly, that people find it perfectly acceptable to go $65,000 into debt for that new car, new big screen, etc. but ask them to pay off a $65,000 medical bill and they cry poor. It comes down to priorities, and in America, health isn't a priority.

2. As long as we are a nation of fat asses, eating McDonalds, not exercising, sucking down cigarettes, etc., health care will bankrupt whatever party is responsible for footing the bill. I don't care if it is the government, the insurance companies, or some other party. No one can afford to cover the health care bill for this nation. And I'm sure our resident phys ed teacher can tell us this problem is getting worse, not better. Reform public health first, or any health care reform will fail.

3. Its a shame that the democrats had to force such a shitty bill through, because there really were some good reforms in there, that had bipartisan support, that could have made positive steps and pleased everyone. Unfortunately, this bill was viewed by the left as their chance to flex some muscle.

4. I am very glad I left medicine for industry before I invested any more of my life in the field. Unfortunately, I know several bright people who are doing likewise. That ought to be great for the future of health care.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:52 am 
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BBF wrote:
A couple things that upset me about this argument:

1. This thought that uninsured people are being told to go die. That's crap. If you have a heart attack, you will be treated immediately, regardless of your ability to pay. If you have cancer, you will be treated. You will be told how much the care costs, and you will be given the choice whether or not to undergo the treatment. Hospitals have free care funds, will work with you to set up payment plans, etc. Often, private payers pay far less than what insurance companies are billed. It pisses me off, quite frankly, that people find it perfectly acceptable to go $65,000 into debt for that new car, new big screen, etc. but ask them to pay off a $65,000 medical bill and they cry poor. It comes down to priorities, and in America, health isn't a priority.


BBF,

If you are addressing the debate I was involved with, that wasn't what I was talking about. I know people aren't being told to go die. The point I was making is there are people out there who are like NSMaster who say they don't want health insurance because they don't need it. But what happens to them when they do need it and they don't have it? The way it is set up now, they do get treatment like you mentioned. But there are people out there who think (and probably won't say), "You didn't have insurance. Sorry, that's your problem. You should have had it so oh well." Some of those people probably even feel the people who can't afford it are in the same boat.

It goes back to why everyone should have some kind of health insurance which goes back to my point at the beginning of this thread. There is nothing wrong with the government promoting national health care to make sure everyone is protected. Now, the way they are paying for it or the way they are implementing it with this plan can be debated. I don't have an answer or an opinion on it at this time. And for the Constitution debaters, I will let you have at it. But I keep having the "General Welfare" part ringing in my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:38 am 
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BBF wrote:
A couple things that upset me about this argument:

1. This thought that uninsured people are being told to go die. That's crap. If you have a heart attack, you will be treated immediately, regardless of your ability to pay. If you have cancer, you will be treated. You will be told how much the care costs, and you will be given the choice whether or not to undergo the treatment. Hospitals have free care funds, will work with you to set up payment plans, etc. Often, private payers pay far less than what insurance companies are billed. It pisses me off, quite frankly, that people find it perfectly acceptable to go $65,000 into debt for that new car, new big screen, etc. but ask them to pay off a $65,000 medical bill and they cry poor. It comes down to priorities, and in America, health isn't a priority.

2. As long as we are a nation of fat asses, eating McDonalds, not exercising, sucking down cigarettes, etc., health care will bankrupt whatever party is responsible for footing the bill. I don't care if it is the government, the insurance companies, or some other party. No one can afford to cover the health care bill for this nation. And I'm sure our resident phys ed teacher can tell us this problem is getting worse, not better. Reform public health first, or any health care reform will fail.


*starts a slow clap*

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:38 am 
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Argentum wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Sorry BB, but until someone can explain to me how $500 billion carved out of Medicare will NOT negatively impact senior citizens quality of life, I will refuse to engage in battles of moral equivocacy. For the record, I'm all for healthcare for everyone, but this legislation is not the answer.


I never said anything about the legislation Silver. I was talking about the morality of health care in general. Like I have said before, I am not sure if this legislation is good or bad, but I am wondering if it is a good thing for everyone to have it. My point was the consequences if someone doesn't.


I thought this discussion was about the legislation. Can you legislate morality? Is that the role of government? I know your heart is in the right place, that's a good thing, but my point is that from what I can gather, we are jeopardizing the quality of healthcare for some, for the benefits of others. AT&T (can't wait for the first mention of "big business")is already saying that they'll incur a $1 billion dollar hit to their books in order to compensate for the extra expenses related for implementing this new legislation. Furthermore, this may impact their ability to provide healthcare for their retired and current employees. A bunch of other big companies are saying the same thing. So the people Pelosi et al. trotted out for sympathy will get theirs, but others will pay the price. Is that morally just? Again, healthcare reform is needed, but this was the wrong way to do it, and sadly there are no do overs.

Silver, feel free to identify one law that is NOT based on a moral judgment.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:32 am 
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Willton wrote:
Silver, feel free to identify one law that is NOT based on a moral judgment.


Everyone is instilled with a moral compass, unfortunately, for some reason to make it in politics, ones compass must be adjusted to point in only one direction. Of course laws are shaped by people with morals, no matter how low, but these laws aren't supposed to tell us how we, as citizens, should apply our morality in all situations. I would think that most agree murder is morally bankrupt and deserves to be severely legislated. Forcing someone to participate in socialized healthcare because there is a 1% risk of a 23 year old developing cancer or there is a 1/6250 chance of being struck by lightning...........

I'll put on my tin foil helmet now and postulate that the reason for forced participation is to mask the results. The results being that of the 30 million uninsured, more than half will not actually participate unless forced to.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:11 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
You will have to excuse me if I don't shed a tear for companies like AT&T who have been using tax loopholes for years while making billions of dollars in profits. Did you know your tax dollars have been subsidizing AT&T retirees benefits for several years now? Talk about Socialism. It's Coroprate Socialism.

If they choose to screw their employees over, it's because of corporate greed, nothing else.


Who cares about tax "loopholes", the one that the Democrats just "closed" will affect the common man. I thought under your reasoning we were supposed to insure everyone regardless of cost, because one can't put a price on life? But isn't that exactly what the government does with increasing alarm? And isn't that what they just did but enacting legislation that they knew would "trickle down" to you and I?

$1 billion is almost half of AT&T's profit, how can that not have an effect on their ability to manage? Do you know what that means to their financials? And what happens to their stock when these charges hit the books? And what happens to the economy?

I love how we as a country excuse government ineptitude, in this case enacting a law that legally allowed companies to deduct from taxable income the monies they receive from subsidies, subsidies that their getting to relieve the burden on the governments failed Medicare system. This wasn't a "loophole" until there was a need to come up with money to fund a short sighted healthcare plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:34 am 
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Argentum wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
You will have to excuse me if I don't shed a tear for companies like AT&T who have been using tax loopholes for years while making billions of dollars in profits. Did you know your tax dollars have been subsidizing AT&T retirees benefits for several years now? Talk about Socialism. It's Coroprate Socialism.

If they choose to screw their employees over, it's because of corporate greed, nothing else.


Who cares about tax "loopholes", the one that the Democrats just "closed" will affect the common man. I thought under your reasoning we were supposed to insure everyone regardless of cost, because one can't put a price on life? But isn't that exactly what the government does with increasing alarm? And isn't that what they just did but enacting legislation that they knew would "trickle down" to you and I?

$1 billion is almost half of AT&T's profit, how can that not have an effect on their ability to manage? Do you know what that means to their financials? And what happens to their stock when these charges hit the books? And what happens to the economy?

I love how we as a country excuse government ineptitude, in this case enacting a law that legally allowed companies to deduct from taxable income the monies they receive from subsidies, subsidies that their getting to relieve the burden on the governments failed Medicare system. This wasn't a "loophole" until there was a need to come up with money to fund a short sighted healthcare plan.


You are right. It's going to hit the little guy at AT&T, but I guarantee upper management will not lose their corporate jets and third houses on the French Riviera. Because that's the choice the company will make. And just because the loophole was there legally, doesn't make it right. Corporate Socialism at it's best. And believe me, the government has failed in many different ways. If you feel this bill is one of them, then add it to the list. Heck, we could have insured everyone with the billions of dollars we have been paying military contracts to fight two useless wars. Off soapbox.

And my reasoning wasn't to insure everyone at any cost. I have said repeatedly that I don't know if this plan is good or bad for me or my family or America. All I am saying I think it is a good thing everyone does have health care. I am also saying just because you are healthy and young, you shouldn't get a free pass. If you choose not to have health insurance, maybe there should be consequences. The answer to that is we will still treat you if you get sick, but it will be free because we can't let you die. Who pays for that? The system? the government?

I have a friend who was struck with Leukemia at a very young age (25). Total shock. No family history. Healthy lifestyle. He was invincible at that age. He was fortunate he had a job where he had health insurance. But since I worked with him and we were self-insured, all of our premiums went up that next year to treat him. If he didn't have health insurance, how would have he fought the disease? Others keep talking about payment plans and free care from hospitals. Come on, nothing is free. Someone is paying for it. Or Medicaid? Someone is paying for that to. And that goes back to my original point. We are already paying for people not insured. Some of them can't afford it. Some of them are lazy and don't want to go out and get a job where it is covered. Some just feel they don't need it.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
When the country was founded they were still "bleeding" people . That was health care at the time and our first president died from it. The founding fathers had no idea what what "health" care was so there is no validity in that argument.

Someone explain to me how it works in numerous countries around the world like France, England and Canada and why it can't work here?

An American citizen can go to one of these countries and if something happens to them while there, they are even covered.

We are not a very compassionate society in regards to health care it would seem.


Because those countires have Constitutional requirements for health care. In this country we have a Constitution that limits the involvement of government in our lives.

At least that's the way it's suppossed to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:05 pm 
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BBF wrote:
And I'm sure our resident phys ed teacher can tell us this problem is getting worse, not better.


Amen brother!


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:26 pm 
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Useless?

Image

Unless you're one of those whack jobs who thinks 9/11 was an inside job.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:36 pm 
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Yeah because of all those WMDs we found in Iraq. How many of the terrorists in 9/11 were Iraqis?

The only whack jobs are the ones who didn't see the real agenda of that war. Actually, I take that back. They weren't whack jobs. They were suckers.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:41 pm 
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You said two useless wars. Two.

Go ahead and tell us all how the war in Afghanistan was useless.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
You said two useless wars. Two.

Go ahead and tell us all how the war in Afghanistan was useless.


Just because it wasn't as useless as Iraq doesn't mean it wasn't useless.

And the biggest reason history will see them as mistakes is when we are gone, the extremists will take control again. Iraq will have a civil war and Afghanistan will fall prey to the Taliban again. Unless you think we should stay there forever.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:10 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
You said two useless wars. Two.

Go ahead and tell us all how the war in Afghanistan was useless.


Just because it wasn't as useless as Iraq doesn't mean it wasn't useless.

And the biggest reason history will see them as mistakes is when we are gone, the extremists will take control again. Iraq will have a civil war and Afghanistan will fall prey to the Taliban again. Unless you think we should stay there forever.


So what would you have done in response to 9/11 bucco boy?


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
You said two useless wars. Two.

Go ahead and tell us all how the war in Afghanistan was useless.


Just because it wasn't as useless as Iraq doesn't mean it wasn't useless.

And the biggest reason history will see them as mistakes is when we are gone, the extremists will take control again. Iraq will have a civil war and Afghanistan will fall prey to the Taliban again. Unless you think we should stay there forever.


So what would you have done in response to 9/11 bucco boy?


Go back and read this post. I would have sunk the money into intelligence and securing our borders, something we still haven't done.

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/24/te ... r-borders/

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:03 am 
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bucco boy wrote:
Just because it wasn't as useless as Iraq doesn't mean it wasn't useless.

And the biggest reason history will see them as mistakes is when we are gone, the extremists will take control again. Iraq will have a civil war and Afghanistan will fall prey to the Taliban again. Unless you think we should stay there forever.


Cuba. Germany. Italy. Japan. South Korea. Kuwait. (Among others)

Pretty sure we can add two to that list, no biggie.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:24 pm 
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careful, those of you who reject this health care law. The details of the benefits of it are now becoming kown to Americans who really got misinformation from the right as to its facts. The reaction of people is already changing and will continue to become more supportive as we learn the benefits to all become better known.

Go ahead and recreate a world where caps and previous conditions cause bankruptcy, or take away senior citizens new drug coverage, or insurance for kids until 26 and see how many votes you gain. There is also the small item of 32 million now geting coverage.

Are you beginning to worry yet

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:00 am 
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You are right. It's going to hit the little guy at AT&T, but I guarantee upper management will not lose their corporate jets and third houses on the French Riviera. Because that's the choice the company will make. And just because the loophole was there legally, doesn't make it right. Corporate Socialism at it's best. And believe me, the government has failed in many different ways. If you feel this bill is one of them, then add it to the list. Heck, we could have insured everyone with the billions of dollars we have been paying military contracts to fight two useless wars. Off soapbox.


Are you actually upset about the folks that can't afford healthcare... or are you more concerned about people who are living the American dream and making far more money than you and I?


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