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 Post subject: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Somebody explain to me what the state attorney generals, including PA, are doing filing lawsuits against this new coverage. From what I read, they are saying it's unconstitutional because it forces people to buy health insurance. Okay, but the state government makes me buy auto insurance if I want to drive. Please don't tell me driving is a privilege because it isn't for me. if I don't drive, I don't work and I can't support my family. So, it is essential I drive just like it's essential I have health insurance to manage my diabetes.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:25 pm 
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What states have filed lawsuits? Seems a little premature since the bill just passed and has not yet become law.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:39 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Somebody explain to me what the state attorney generals, including PA, are doing filing lawsuits against this new coverage. From what I read, they are saying it's unconstitutional because it forces people to buy health insurance. Okay, but the state government makes me buy auto insurance if I want to drive. Please don't tell me driving is a privilege because it isn't for me. if I don't drive, I don't work and I can't support my family. So, it is essential I drive just like it's essential I have health insurance to manage my diabetes.


There is the key. Driving is a privileged, no matter how you cut it. You have the ability to move closer to work. Not that I am telling you to, but you have that option.

Never in history, has it been mandated that you buy something to be a citizen. This is blatantly unconstitutional, though that means nothing to this congress.

I suspect Obama and the Dems will rue the day they jeered the court at the State of the Union.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:54 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?


Does the Federal government force you to have auto insurance?


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:55 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?


You must have liability auto insurance. Whether you insure your own vehicle is up to you. Same with homeowner insurance, its your house and won't affect others if disaster happens upon your home.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?


Does the Federal government force you to have auto insurance?


What does it matter if it's federal, state or local? It's the government.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:16 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?


You must have liability auto insurance. Whether you insure your own vehicle is up to you. Same with homeowner insurance, its your house and won't affect others if disaster happens upon your home.


That might be the case, but I still think it's funny how the states are going to sue even though the states mandate you to buy insurance, no matter what kind. You can call it a privilege or not, but I am pretty sure the constitution doesn't mention anything about privileges.

I guess my point is that it will be Rupublican AGs that will sue and that's because it's about politics, not about the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:34 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?


You must have liability auto insurance. Whether you insure your own vehicle is up to you. Same with homeowner insurance, its your house and won't affect others if disaster happens upon your home.


No, you don't, if you don't own a car or drive. At least in PA.

Ooops, see big difference. You and I don't need to buy auto insurance to be citizens'.

You only need homeowners, if you own a home.

I don't want insurance? I have to pay a fine and/or go to jail.

Great stuff that.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:44 pm 
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The government makes you buy insurance. What does it matter why they do it. The government makes you pay taxes too although I am still trying to figure out where that is in the constitution.

Let me say this. I am not sure if I am for or against this plan. I am not informed enough to understand how it works or if it is for the overall good.

But I do know this. A lot of the people against it are cold. This is not referenced to anyone on this board, just a general statement.

What those people want to say and they can't because it makes them look bad is that if you don't have health insurance, you should die. That's really how far they would take it. I think that is sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:49 pm 
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Our republic makes a DISTINCT difference between federal and state governmental obligations, rights and responsibilities. To simply shrug your shoulders and say "the government makes me do it" with that distinction is the road ever-expanding centralized control.

You also create a false choice by saying those that are against this bill "want people to die".

How much of my earnings and effort are you entitled to?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:02 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Our republic makes a DISTINCT difference between federal and state governmental obligations, rights and responsibilities. To simply shrug your shoulders and say "the government makes me do it" with that distinction is the road ever-expanding centralized control.

You also create a false choice by saying those that are against this bill "want people to die".

How much of my earnings and effort are you entitled to?

ZM


Well Mike. I don't take any of your earnings or efforts. Second, I never said people who were against the bill want people to die. I said there are people in general (and most of them I would guess would be against a bill like this) who think people who don't have health insurance should die.

I don't know if you are one of those people. But since you stated it the way you did, I will ask you the question.

If a man has no health insurance and gets cancer, what should happen to him?

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:07 pm 
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By the way, the reason I bring this up is because I am looking for answers regarding whether everyone should have health insurance or not and how it should be done. Morally, it seems they should, but from a logical point it seems they shouldn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:34 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:

Well Mike. I don't take any of your earnings or efforts.


If you used cash for clunkers, bought a new home, or will use the subsidies of this health plan, you did or will.

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...If a man has no health insurance and gets cancer, what should happen to him?


What happens right now. He goes to one of many hospitals like the Cleveland clinic for treatment, or he enters Medicaid if it is an involuntary choice.

Are you suggesting that a fellow who CHOOSES not to have insurance, should be exempt from paying for treatment? Are you suggesting doctors work for free or should be reimbursed below their costs?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:35 pm 
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The whole debate depends on how you frame healthcare. Is it a right or a privilege?

I need to read about the plan before I say anything else. I don't generally have the time to read things like that, though, with all the other reading I have to do.

I will just say one thing, though, about the issue. First of all, I have heard people tell me that it's not their responsibility to pay for others to have healthcare. These people seem to want to frame the issue as though it's just useless bums who are too lazy to work that don't have healthcare and would benefit from a government plan which would provide it for them. This couldn't be further from the truth, though. For one thing, I know that my own situation is one which if I did not have the financial support from others right now I could not afford health care. It's not that I am too lazy to work but rather that I can't at the current moment work in a job which is going to provide those benefits and I am also pursuing a post-graduate degree so that I can one day get a job that will provide those benefits. I am just one of many. There are a lot of people in other situations who do not have health coverage not because they are lazy but because they can't afford it despite their good faith efforts.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:40 pm 
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Rights are inalienable, not given by government. Thus, cannot be taken away.

If you are of the school that says rights are bestowed by governmental fiat, ... then you are slave to that government, and its whims.

Statement 1 is the whole underpinning of our republic and constitution.

Statement 2 is the basis of dictators, kings and oligarchs through history.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:08 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
bucco boy wrote:

Well Mike. I don't take any of your earnings or efforts.


If you used cash for clunkers, bought a new home, or will use the subsidies of this health plan, you did or will.

Quote:
...If a man has no health insurance and gets cancer, what should happen to him?


What happens right now. He goes to one of many hospitals like the Cleveland clinic for treatment, or he enters Medicaid if it is an involuntary choice.

Are you suggesting that a fellow who CHOOSES not to have insurance, should be exempt from paying for treatment? Are you suggesting doctors work for free or should be reimbursed below their costs?

ZM


Where did I suggest that? I am actually quite the opposite. I am questioning whether people who don't have insurance should be treated at all according to the premise that the government should not be involved in health care.

Anyway, so the Cleveland Clinic treats him for free or he enters Medicaid which is the government, correct? So that guy with cancer has the right to medical coverage, no matter his situation?

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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Wow.....just wow.

I expect better from a Pennsylvanian.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:00 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Rights are inalienable, not given by government. Thus, cannot be taken away.

If you are of the school that says rights are bestowed by governmental fiat, ... then you are slave to that government, and its whims.

Statement 1 is the whole underpinning of our republic and constitution.

Statement 2 is the basis of dictators, kings and oligarchs through history.

ZM


That's inaccurate. The founding fathers felt that certain rights were inalienable. Thus, the government they created ensured as best they could that they would be protected. Judging by your logic, blacks always had the rights of life, liberty, and property because government doesn't grant rights. I think we both know that's not true.

Also, we know that these rights the government provides us, including our most sacred, are not absolute. Not all speech is protected by the First Amendment, for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Healthcare lawsuits
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:28 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Either way you cut it Mike, the state forces me to buy auto insurance. The government doesn't force me to have homeowner insurance. Wouldn't you classify that as a privilege?


Does the Federal government force you to have auto insurance?


What does it matter if it's federal, state or local? It's the government.

It matters because the Constitution only gives Congress a specific set of enumerated powers with which it may enact legislation. If the Constitution does not provide Congress with the power to legislate in a particular area, then the power to legislate in that area is left to the states.

Insurance law is primarily within the ambit of tort law, which is largely governed by state law. Congress generally does not have the power to enact federal legislation that affects tort liability. Congress does, however, have the power to enact laws that regulate commerce "among the several States." Congress would have to justify the individual mandate as being within the ambit of that enumerated power.

The quoted language above is often referred to as "the Commerce Clause." From 1936 to about 1996, the Supreme Court had given those quoted words a very broad interpretation. However, ever since U.S. v. Lopez in 1996, the Supreme Court has been pulling back on the reigns of Congress's commerce power by defining limits as to what Congress can and cannot do pursuant to the Commerce Clause. There are a fair amount of people (including presumably at least 4 Supreme Court justices) that believe that the individual mandate falls outside of those limits.

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