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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:27 am 
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Bob -
If the state has the power to tell a woman that she may not get an abortion . . . then the state also has the power to tell a woman that she must get an abortion. You can't have one without the other . . . either the state possesses the right or the state doesn't possess the right.

I'm particularly sorry that you want to shut down the discussion because I find your willingness to allow state intervention over matters but not federal intervention over matters interesting.

Have a nice evening,
No. 9

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:00 am 
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Willton wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
Beyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible.

...

In fact, I support state laws against abortion and same-sex marriage.

Hypocrite.


How so. The federal reach is articulated and limited. If not specifically outlined, laws are left to the states. Where is the hypocrisy of letting the states decide what they want in the context of the constitution.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:48 am 
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Quote:
Probably because you can't give a reasonable justification for your stance on the subject.

I'll say this: I hope you don't end up with children who are gay. For if you did, I don't think you could give them the proper love and respect they deserve, given your stance described above.


Such a crass statement. I'd say challenge the subject and leave the personal characteristics out of the discussion. It is a cheap shot that indicates that you aren't as sold on your position as you lead us to believe.


Last edited by Piratefan13 on Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Now I'm not as intelligent as the rest of you gents, so I classify myself as an average American. I see the indulgent attitudes of the Ivy League elite that are currently running this country as the cause of the major problems in America today. This elitist attitude of the Leftist/Liberal Democrats (some "Independents" like Wilton) figure that the average American doesn't really have a clue what is good for themselves. Reading this entire thread is a microcosim of the point that I am making. Just because you went to school for 18 years and have certificates, diplomas, and various other paperwork adorning your walls, that doesn't give you the right to decide what is best for me in life. I have spent nearly 20 years of my life working in and around the government(not allowed to mention the Military because Wilton thinks I'm too prideful of that), I've seen the good, and I've seen the bad. The one thing that has been constant is the tug-of-war between the Republicans and the Democrats for power. I myself am a conservative American, that qualifies me as Republican, but I'm none to happy with some of the Republicans in this government that have not stood up to socialist agenda that has been blatently evident since Obama took office. I think this entire government forgets who the power rests upon, and that is the people. The election in Mass. certainly opened a few eyes and reminded them as much.

Now I can't sit here are argue point by point each bill or decision but what I do see is common sense things that would cause me alarm. Take the Health Care bill for instance, it reminds me of the NFL when a controversial play happens and the team quickly tries to snap the ball so that the opposing team cannot get a look at the replay and challenge. The Democrats and Pelosi are trying to ram this Health Care Bill through before anyone gets a good look at it. Fortunately, Americans with the "tea PARTY" movement have tossed the red flag for review. From what I've heard of the Bill, its a bogus piece of crap that is loaded with kickbacks and "good ole boy" deals for Liberal supporters. Of course Fox highlights mostly the bad points of the bill, but one of the situations that irks me is the fact that somebody who sits on his/her couch and refuses to get a job is going to get health care at my expense. Screw that!!

America is the land of opportunity and if you aren't man enough to strive after that opportunity than you don't deserve my support. I am sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:16 pm 
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The idea that Republicans are "frightened" by the fact that Obama is "black" is proposterous. Technically he is half white. The reality of the issue is that the ONLY people making race an issue is the Democrats and Liberal society. If they would just shut up about it, the race issue would be silent. I myself, with many Republican friends, would have selected Condalisa Rice in a heartbeat for President.

A woman who is black. :shock: The only racists in America are the Left Wing Liberal Democrats.

I just wish more black Americans would come out from under the Liberal oppression and take responsibility for themselves and take on more leadership roles in this country. I want to hear FROM THEM what they think , not the Democrats speaking for them, or Rev. Al Sharpton who is a shill for the Liberal left.

Harry Ried gets a nice pass... issue effectively swept under the rug. The ONLY HYPOCRITS are the Democratic party.


Last edited by Piratefan13 on Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:27 pm 
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And another thing... Why are you liberals still demonizing Sarah Palin? She holds no office, she isn't running against anyone. Might it be that fact that you know that she is going to run for President and beat Obama soundly?

And on the Bush excuse... Obama has been the President for a year now right? When do you think he is going to take the actual responsibility on himself? Typical cop out attitude, its the other guys fault. Real leaders take the responsibility on themselves EVEN if its the other guys fault. Maybe Obama can spread the blame around, they can probably dig up some falicy to blame on Reagan or George H Bush.

This is the very reason why this President gets no respect, he doesn't have a clue how to command respect, he just runs around demanding respect. What a crock...


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Oh and Jeremy, I understand your angst towards Wilton's positions on Politics, but his Pittsburgh Pirates fandom is unquestionable.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:37 pm 
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This is why I never really get involved with debating politics, but I will say this. All of you Conservatives and Liberals are nuts. The problem with the lot of you is not your politics as much as you see yourselves as Conservatives or Liberals before you see yourselves as Americans. That's why this country needs a third party that falls in the middle where people do see both sides.

Quote:
People talk about the middle of the road as though it were unacceptable. Actually, all human problems, excepting morals, come into the gray areas. Things are not all black and white. There have to be compromises. The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters. -Dwight D. Eisenhower

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Pirates13 -
Friendly wagers?
I'll offer 2 to 1 odds.
First bet. I bet you five dollars that Sarah Palin will not be the Republicans' candidate for presidency in 2012.
Second bet, I bet you five dollars that, if she is the Republicans' candidate, she won't win.

I'll pay you $10 for each bet if I am wrong.


Piratefan13 wrote:
Such a crass statement. I'd say challenge the subject and leave the personal characteristics out of the discussion. It is a cheap shot that indicates that you aren't as sold on your position as you lead us to believe.


You mean terms like "elitist attitudes of Leftist/Liberal Democrats?" Stones and glass houses.

Piratefan13 wrote:
, but one of the situations that irks me is the fact that somebody who sits on his/her couch and refuses to get a job is going to get health care at my expense. Screw that!!


And when that same person walks into an emergency room without insurance, is treated by a physician and cannot afford it . . . who pays for that? All of us do. Every single one of us. Our society will not tolerate (nor should it IMO) simply allowing people to go without medical treatment based upon financial standing or ability to pay.

And what about the person with a 3,000 sq. foot home, recently laid off but looking for a job, two cars in the garage, $30,000 in credit card debt, $20,000 in unpaid medical bills and who just filed for bankruptcy protection. Who pays for this? We do. We all do.

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No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:55 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
This is why I never really get involved with debating politics, but I will say this. All of you Conservatives and Liberals are nuts. The problem with the lot of you is not your politics as much as you see yourselves as Conservatives or Liberals before you see yourselves as Americans. That's why this country needs a third party that falls in the middle where people do see both sides.

Quote:
People talk about the middle of the road as though it were unacceptable. Actually, all human problems, excepting morals, come into the gray areas. Things are not all black and white. There have to be compromises. The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters. -Dwight D. Eisenhower



Hear, hear.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:23 pm 
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Problem is defining the "middle".

I daresay, Dwight's world of middle is today considered "right wing extremists".

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:43 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
This is why I never really get involved with debating politics, but I will say this. All of you Conservatives and Liberals are nuts. The problem with the lot of you is not your politics as much as you see yourselves as Conservatives or Liberals before you see yourselves as Americans. That's why this country needs a third party that falls in the middle where people do see both sides.
Image


Well there is another choice

http://www.lp.org/

take the quiz... I scored a 100%

I would say the ideology is more on the conservative side but far from the Republican party.

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ImageImage


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:49 pm 
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No. 9,

Your comparison to my calling the Left "elitist" and Wilton's unwarranted questioning of Bob's parenting skills is apples to oranges. Wilton stated something unknown about someone personally while I am stating facts based on various speeches that can be seen on TV every night by the likes of Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and Barak Obama.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Pirates13,
The entirety of your post makes it perfectly clear that you were taking a personal shot at certain posters who may be advocating a position with which you disagree. See below.

Piratefan13 wrote:
Reading this entire thread is a microcosim of the point that I am making. Just because you went to school for 18 years and have certificates, diplomas, and various other paperwork adorning your walls, that doesn't give you the right to decide what is best for me in life.


And, would you agree that, just because you have 51% of people agreeing with you on a particular issue, you don't have the right to decide what is better for others in their lives? And, if you don't agree with that statement and believe that - as long as a majority of people support the issue - do citizens of our country or do citizens of our states have certain inalienable rights that cannot be infringed upon by the majority? For instance, if the majority of Iowans hate U.S. citizens of Norwegian ancestry, can the Iowa legislature pass a law that forbids new home sales to U.S. citizens of Norwegian ancestry? Can Iowans vote on a proposition which gives them the right to refuse to sell solely on a person's ancestry? Can the majority of a state impose such a will upon the other 49% of the state's populace? Or, does that infringe upon the citizen's rights under the U.S. Constitution and the state constitution (equal protection under the laws and due process under the laws).

Again, I understand the concept that people don't want others intervening into their lives. We embrace the concept of "freedom." However, quite often, those same people advocating "freedom" in their lives have no problem intervening into the freedom of other's lives. To me, that is inconsistent.

My last question to you would be this . . . do you believe anyone has the right to decide what is best for you in life? Or, is that solely up to you?

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:24 pm 
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No. 9 the lines are muddled or they are compartmentalized based upon safety or other things. Take for instance Maryland has a "helmet" law requiring all motorcycle riders such as myself to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle. This law I can't stand and would like to have the right to choose for myself. I understand the concept behind it (saving on head trauma). On the other hand, the recent "texting" bill sounds like a sound law because it could cause major accidents. The only difference is that the "helmet" law is protecting me personally, but the "texting" law protects the community. So what side of the fence am I on?

I believe that regardless of party affiliation, if the American government can find the right balance between laws meant to help the few but hurt the many, and laws that hurt a few, but help the many, I think we might be on to something.

To that extent, the Health Care bill to me is a prime example of helping the few(non-insured) by hurting the many(average America). My question would be, why blow up the entire healthcare structure just to solve that problem? Am I saying that healthcare is great and needs to be left alone, no I am not. There are many proposals that sound far more plausible that blowing the whole thing up. Another thing that concerns me is the number of non-insured that are illegal aliens, why should they get the benefits that law abiding citizens of this great nation receive. There has to be consequences for actions otherwise lets just remove the Border Patrol and make our borders open to everyone. Obviously there is no way that we can do that so maybe the first thing we reform is border protection. That would drastically draw down the numbers of un-insured. Right? Lets take a systematic approach rather than a all or nothing hail mary. We should isolate the problems that are causing Americans to be un-insured, I am sure that unemployement is a major factor. We should have make a more concerted effort to stimulate growth from the small business owners and big business to promote job positions. I think if Congress and the President had taken this approach, things would be looking much better for them and the country at this point. Unfortunately, it just looks like the Democrats have the majority and the executive office and they are more concerned with jamming every piece of legislation that they could through into law. That is why the Tea Parties were formed.

I really don't think you and I need to bicker back and forth about derogatory comments but I stand by my assessment that members on this board do exhibit a superiority attitude and its mainly in these political discussions. I'll admit there are comments on this board that will draw me out and I did take exception to the fact that Wilton questioned Bob in Boston's willingness to love his children. It was pointless and a poor way of trying to make the point about homosexuality.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:41 pm 
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No. 9,
The reason that Sarah Palin will not get an opportunity to run for President is because of her own party and the fat cats that don't want to see REAL change within the Republican party or the United States.

One thing I have never done here is completely absolve the Republican Party of its role in the demise of the economy or the state that this country is in. If Republicans had stayed to their conservative morals, things like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would not have happened. This fantasy called bipartisanship has caused us considerable damage to this great nation. Yes there are issues that both parties can come together on but conservatism and liberalism are two completely different belief systems.

How can there be middle ground on issues like:
Homosexuality - you are either for or against...
The right to choose an abortion or determining that the fetus is a living person. - There is definitely no middle ground there.
The economic processes are completely different

Where can bipartisanship actually work?


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
No. 9 the lines are muddled or they are compartmentalized based upon safety or other things. Take for instance Maryland has a "helmet" law requiring all motorcycle riders such as myself to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle. This law I can't stand and would like to have the right to choose for myself. I understand the concept behind it (saving on head trauma). On the other hand, the recent "texting" bill sounds like a sound law because it could cause major accidents. The only difference is that the "helmet" law is protecting me personally, but the "texting" law protects the community. So what side of the fence am I on?


And when someone who is driving a motorcycle and not wearing a helmet gets into a serious accident, has a serious head trauma and runs up medical bills into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, all of our insurance rates are impacted. One might claim "why should I have to pay an increased health insurance premium just because someone didn't want to wear a helmet?" What if that person died of head trauma, is underinsured and leaves a widow and kids with no means of support. Society then pays to help support them via Social Security.

What if Maryland's law read that an operator of a motorcycle could ride helmetlessly only if the operator carried $5,000,000 in medical insurance coverage to cover potential medical costs if you are involved in a traumatic accident which leaves you in a coma? And life insurance (if they have a spouse/dependants) of $250,000 per spouse and number of dependants?

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:19 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Willton wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
Beyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible.

...

In fact, I support state laws against abortion and same-sex marriage.

Hypocrite.


How so. The federal reach is articulated and limited. If not specifically outlined, laws are left to the states. Where is the hypocrisy of letting the states decide what they want in the context of the constitution.

ZM

I have no problem with federalism. I agree that states should be allowed to legislate in certain realms (e.g., public health and safety, family law, tort and contract, business associations, criminal law) while the federal government can legislate in others (e.g., interstate commerce, patent and copyright laws, national defense, immigration), and I'm cool with a little bit of overlap (e.g., property law, taxation). But that is a far different discussion than the rationales for legislation. When Bob said "Beyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible," that's not a statement regarding federalism. That's a statement regarding the rationale for legislation and regulation in general. So, to say that government should stay out of our lives unless it involves keeping our nation safe from foreign enemies (federal issue) or domestic enemies (state and federal issue), and then to turn around and say that he supports government involvement in family issues that do not involve domestic or foreign enemies (unless he thinks homosexuals are a domestic enemy), is to talk out of both sides of one's mouth.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:21 pm 
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My insurance from BCBS is outstanding and I would be happy with a "helmet" law that was conditional.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:22 pm 
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I'm not sure the motorcycle thing is the best example of what you are trying to say, No. 9. In PA, where they repealed helmet laws a few years ago, the deciding issue was the insurance co. statistics that showed no difference in traumatic injury between helmeted or helmet-less riders. I think it only shows that riding a cycle is more dangerous, period. As it is, insurance rates are already higher for that group, and so the successful argument was that there is no overriding damage to the commonweal whether with or without.

Should the state have instead, banned motorcycles?

ZM

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