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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:40 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Well, first, in the history of the world, marriage between races is the norm, not the exception. This of course, does not include certain cultures having rules to ban such things (usually ignored)

I don't see how that's relevant. In the history of the world, polytheistic religion was the norm. Your "millennial old institution" (i.e., the Church) is less than 2000 years old. Please cite a point in time during the reign of the Church where interracial marriage was the norm. Then maybe this will carry some weight.

ZelieMike wrote:
But, you are trying to equivocate skin color with sexual orientation. Bad, bad, bad.

Why, why, why?

ZelieMike wrote:
Crow laws denied folks of color from inalienable rights due a person. Recognition of same-sex marriage is not in that league. You are asking a religious institution that is accepted as a civic union to be applied in the face of the religion behind it. Not good.

No, I am asking the LAW to not descriminate between heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage. I could give a rat's ass what the religious institutions do or think, as they have no place in government whatsoever. No one is asking for religious institutions to be forced to do anything.

Again, if laws banning interracial marriage were found unconstitutional (see Loving v. Virginia), then laws banning same-sex marriage should likewise be found unconstitutional. Both sets of laws restrict(ed) the protections and privileges afforded to people based on a person's inherent trait.

ZelieMike wrote:
As pointed out earlier, I have no problem with folks being together whether heterosexual or homosexual. I would support a civic union that allows all the tax ramification of marriage. For myself, I recognize and respect the religious view whether I agree or not, and would vote against a marriage proposal that forces religions to recognize the marriages against their will.

ZM

Well then you should have no problem with the movement, as no one is asking religious institutions to be forced to do anything. If anything, religious institutions are being asked to stay out of the issue, for they have no business saying what marriages should and should not be recognized by the law.

Sidebar: it's called a civil union, not a civic union.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:04 pm 
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Willton wrote:
By the way, Bob in Boston's silence is deafening. ;)


Well, excuse me, counselor. Unlike some other people here, I occasionally let a day or two slip by without checking the board. (Shocking, I know.) Why, sometimes I even go out of town without taking the computer along! I'm retired now, so I can get away with doing that.

I’m flattered that you and No. 9 seem interested in my opinion. So here it comes: As far as I’m concerned, the issues about which he asks are none of the federal government’s business. Well, except maybe for the morning-after pill; I would hope that it had been tested first by the FDA and found to be safe for human consumption.

With respect to his first challenge, however, perhaps he ought to have reviewed what he wrote before hitting the submit button. I know he's a smart lawyer, but it strikes me as difficult to imagine how the government could outlaw someone’s desire. Even under this train wreck of a presidency we don’t have thought police yet (as far as I know).

But I realize that liberals aren't going to let these matters alone, and that's OK. We have a representative republic and there's ample room within it for give and take.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:07 am 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
I’m flattered that you and No. 9 seem interested in my opinion. So here it comes: As far as I’m concerned, the issues about which he asks are none of the federal government’s business. Well, except maybe for the morning-after pill; I would hope that it had been tested first by the FDA and found to be safe for human consumption.

That's not fully answering the question. No. 9 asked if you think the government should be involved in those issues. That includes state government. You should not use qualifying language like "federal" in your answer since your did not use such language in your original statement that "[b]eyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible."

So, do you think that the same issues are none of the State's business as well? Or do you hold the State to a different standard when it comes to legislation?

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Bob -
It really wasn't so much of a challenge as it is a curiosity. My personal experience is that - as a talking point - people want less government. But, quite often, those same people want the government to enact laws to suit their particular interests. To me, quite often the analysis become outcome determinative.

But, that's just me.

And, FWIW, I wasn't drafting a legal document with the questions that I previously posed for you. Last time I checked, any heterosexual couple who desired to get married could do so in all 50 states. The same cannot be said for homosexual couples who desired to do so. The point seemed rather clear. But . . . I'll take the pot shot. I was simply asking what I considered to be fair questions and the same questions that I have debated with friends over and over and over again.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
"From what I read"

I believe this is the problem we have in America today. We isolate ourselves from anyone with a different point of view and never bother to learn what the average person thinks. You say that Republicans/Conservatives want to ban gay marriage. But I sit here knowing people like Pete Coors (chairman of Coors Brewing Co and a former candidate for the Senate from Colorado) and Meg McCain (daughter of Senator John McCain) are advocates of gay marriage. Coors Brewing Company already gives benefits to the same sex partners of it's homosexual employees. Both Cindy and Meg McCain (the wife and daughter of Sen John McCain) recently did ads in California opposing Prop 8.

If you want to take the stances of the religious right and apply them to all Republicans/Conservatives, that's fine. Just don't be offended when Republicans/Conservatives take the stances of groups like Code Pink and applyt them to all Democrats/Liberals.


Jeremy -
My take: "Conservatives" are a subpart of Republicans. And there is a gradation of "conservative" doctrine. "Liberals" are a subpart of Democrats. And there is a gradation of "liberalism."

The last presidential election is a perfect illustration. McCain was the Republican candidate but he was hardly embraced by conservatives.

What I wrote was "from what I read, most conservatives." I was not equating conservatives with Republicans. I did not write, "from what I read, most Republicans."

I wholeheartedly agree with you on a particular point. A problem in this country today is the attempted villification on both sides of the aisle through sterotyping and emotional language. Just listen to Olberman and Limbaugh. Maddow and Hannity or Beck. Republicans are portrayed as "right wing religious nutjobs." Democrats are portrayed as "liberal socialists/communists." The polarization of this country into two "sides" is extremely disheartening to me.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:46 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Well, first, in the history of the world, marriage between races is the norm, not the exception. This of course, does not include certain cultures having rules to ban such things (usually ignored)

But, you are trying to equivocate skin color with sexual orientation. Bad, bad, bad. Crow laws denied folks of color from inalienable rights due a person. Recognition of same-sex marriage is not in that league. You are asking a religious institution that is accepted as a civic union to be applied in the face of the religion behind it. Not good.

As pointed out earlier, I have no problem with folks being together whether heterosexual or homosexual. I would support a civic union that allows all the tax ramification of marriage. For myself, I recognize and respect the religious view whether I agree or not, and would vote against a marriage proposal that forces religions to recognize the marriages against their will.

ZM


ZM -
I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of any legislation or law that could force a religion to recognize same sex marriage as valid under their particular dogma. My understanding has been that courts interpreting state constitutions have held that, under the equal protection clause, a state which allows hetero couples to get married may not discriminate against a same sex couple who also wish to get married.

Any religion is free not to recognize the "marriage." The question involves whether the state will recognize it.

I was first married in a Catholic Church. That marriage resulted in a divorce. I subsequently married my second wife (a confirmed Catholic) in an Episcopal Church. I'm married in the eyes of the state and I'm married in the eyes of the Episcopal Church. However, the Catholic Church does not view my second marriage as valid. Whether or not I agree with the Catholic's dogma philosophically is not the point . . . they are free to adopt whatever rules they want to. The key issue is that both the state and federal government recognize my marriage is valid.

In my eyes, the "civic union" versus "marriage" semantical debate is curious. I really don't see my marriage as being undermined if a gay or lesbian couple is also allowed to get "married." Calling it a "civic union" really doesn't make any difference to me at all. And, yes, I believe that tax consequences should be the same as well as application of divorce laws.

If marriages are meant to be within the sole province of religious institutions, then hetero couples "uniting and committing" in front of a justice of the peace should also be getting involved in a "civil union."

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:18 pm 
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I for one can't see anybody choosing to be gay.. choosing to be bisexual maybe.

At my former work place I was friends with two older lesbian ladies who have lived together all their lives. They are the sweetest people. They have to hide their relationship but everyone knows. One quit her job a couple of years ago. It always bothered me that she is not covered on her companion's insurance.

In the Philippines homosexuality is totally accepted. Gay men are cross dressers there. I've never read any serious study on it. It's really interesting. Most of them are hair dressers, and a lot of them are beautiful. My wife has so many gay friends back home, male and female, her schoolmates.. she couldn't even begin to count them. And Filipinos refer to gay men as "she," "her," etc. (though that may be do to the fact that "he" and "she" are the same word in Filipino languages.)

I have a good gay Muslim friend in Indonesia. We should all celebrate our differences.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:24 am 
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I dont know the answer to this but if a person is born blind, or better yet blind deaf and dumb(Tommy ...See Me Feel Me Touch Me Heal Me)what is their sexual preference or orientation?

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Willton wrote:
That's not fully answering the question. No. 9 asked if you think the government should be involved in those issues. That includes state government. You should not use qualifying language like "federal" in your answer since your did not use such language in your original statement that "[b]eyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible."

So, do you think that the same issues are none of the State's business as well? Or do you hold the State to a different standard when it comes to legislation?


Picked right up on that, did you?

Clever fellow.

In fact, I support state laws against abortion and same-sex marriage.

Abortion, to me, is murder of the most innocent form of life.

In the mid-1970s, I had a relative who aborted a pregnancy because it was inconvenient. She never forgave herself and died childless. More to the point, she ended up taking her own life because she no longer could deal with the guilt, thus depriving her family and friends the joys of her company, her warmth, and her talents. Her own mother never got over it.

So I have seen the damage that abortion causes, and it isn't pretty.

As for same-sex marriage, I live in Massachusetts, which has one of the longest and most heated histories on this issue of any state. It's like a campfire that's assumed to be out but smolders underneath the ashes until a wind comes up and it bursts into flame again.

I don't care what people of homosexual orientation do in private; that is none of my business. I have no problem with visiting rights in hospitals or being able to will to one's partner some or all of one's estate. To my sense, however, marriage should remain a union of one man and one woman. The law does not deny homosexuals the right to marry. But generally they are not free to marry others of the same gender, just as the rest of us are not free to marry our mothers, our sisters, our first cousins, or more than one woman at a time.

I get that a great many of them think this is unfair. But much of life is unfair.

And I will not be drawn into further discussion on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Beyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible.

...

In fact, I support state laws against abortion and same-sex marriage.

Hypocrite.

Bob in Boston wrote:
I don't care what people of homosexual orientation do in private; that is none of my business. I have no problem with visiting rights in hospitals or being able to will to one's partner some or all of one's estate. To my sense, however, marriage should remain a union of one man and one woman. The law does not deny homosexuals the right to marry. But generally they are not free to marry others of the same gender, just as the rest of us are not free to marry our mothers, our sisters, our first cousins, or more than one woman at a time.

I see. So you say that homosexuals can marry, but they must either marry someone of the opposite gender, or no one at all. Talk about a Hobson's Choice.

Bob in Boston wrote:
I get that a great many of them think this is unfair. But much of life is unfair.

And I will not be drawn into further discussion on the subject.

Probably because you can't give a reasonable justification for your stance on the subject.

I'll say this: I hope you don't end up with children who are gay. For if you did, I don't think you could give them the proper love and respect they deserve, given your stance described above.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:27 am 
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Bob -
If the state has the power to tell a woman that she may not get an abortion . . . then the state also has the power to tell a woman that she must get an abortion. You can't have one without the other . . . either the state possesses the right or the state doesn't possess the right.

I'm particularly sorry that you want to shut down the discussion because I find your willingness to allow state intervention over matters but not federal intervention over matters interesting.

Have a nice evening,
No. 9

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:00 am 
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Willton wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
Beyond keeping this nation safe from all enemies foreign and domestic, I favor as little governmental involvement in our lives as possible.

...

In fact, I support state laws against abortion and same-sex marriage.

Hypocrite.


How so. The federal reach is articulated and limited. If not specifically outlined, laws are left to the states. Where is the hypocrisy of letting the states decide what they want in the context of the constitution.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:48 am 
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Quote:
Probably because you can't give a reasonable justification for your stance on the subject.

I'll say this: I hope you don't end up with children who are gay. For if you did, I don't think you could give them the proper love and respect they deserve, given your stance described above.


Such a crass statement. I'd say challenge the subject and leave the personal characteristics out of the discussion. It is a cheap shot that indicates that you aren't as sold on your position as you lead us to believe.


Last edited by Piratefan13 on Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Now I'm not as intelligent as the rest of you gents, so I classify myself as an average American. I see the indulgent attitudes of the Ivy League elite that are currently running this country as the cause of the major problems in America today. This elitist attitude of the Leftist/Liberal Democrats (some "Independents" like Wilton) figure that the average American doesn't really have a clue what is good for themselves. Reading this entire thread is a microcosim of the point that I am making. Just because you went to school for 18 years and have certificates, diplomas, and various other paperwork adorning your walls, that doesn't give you the right to decide what is best for me in life. I have spent nearly 20 years of my life working in and around the government(not allowed to mention the Military because Wilton thinks I'm too prideful of that), I've seen the good, and I've seen the bad. The one thing that has been constant is the tug-of-war between the Republicans and the Democrats for power. I myself am a conservative American, that qualifies me as Republican, but I'm none to happy with some of the Republicans in this government that have not stood up to socialist agenda that has been blatently evident since Obama took office. I think this entire government forgets who the power rests upon, and that is the people. The election in Mass. certainly opened a few eyes and reminded them as much.

Now I can't sit here are argue point by point each bill or decision but what I do see is common sense things that would cause me alarm. Take the Health Care bill for instance, it reminds me of the NFL when a controversial play happens and the team quickly tries to snap the ball so that the opposing team cannot get a look at the replay and challenge. The Democrats and Pelosi are trying to ram this Health Care Bill through before anyone gets a good look at it. Fortunately, Americans with the "tea PARTY" movement have tossed the red flag for review. From what I've heard of the Bill, its a bogus piece of crap that is loaded with kickbacks and "good ole boy" deals for Liberal supporters. Of course Fox highlights mostly the bad points of the bill, but one of the situations that irks me is the fact that somebody who sits on his/her couch and refuses to get a job is going to get health care at my expense. Screw that!!

America is the land of opportunity and if you aren't man enough to strive after that opportunity than you don't deserve my support. I am sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:16 pm 
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The idea that Republicans are "frightened" by the fact that Obama is "black" is proposterous. Technically he is half white. The reality of the issue is that the ONLY people making race an issue is the Democrats and Liberal society. If they would just shut up about it, the race issue would be silent. I myself, with many Republican friends, would have selected Condalisa Rice in a heartbeat for President.

A woman who is black. :shock: The only racists in America are the Left Wing Liberal Democrats.

I just wish more black Americans would come out from under the Liberal oppression and take responsibility for themselves and take on more leadership roles in this country. I want to hear FROM THEM what they think , not the Democrats speaking for them, or Rev. Al Sharpton who is a shill for the Liberal left.

Harry Ried gets a nice pass... issue effectively swept under the rug. The ONLY HYPOCRITS are the Democratic party.


Last edited by Piratefan13 on Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:27 pm 
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And another thing... Why are you liberals still demonizing Sarah Palin? She holds no office, she isn't running against anyone. Might it be that fact that you know that she is going to run for President and beat Obama soundly?

And on the Bush excuse... Obama has been the President for a year now right? When do you think he is going to take the actual responsibility on himself? Typical cop out attitude, its the other guys fault. Real leaders take the responsibility on themselves EVEN if its the other guys fault. Maybe Obama can spread the blame around, they can probably dig up some falicy to blame on Reagan or George H Bush.

This is the very reason why this President gets no respect, he doesn't have a clue how to command respect, he just runs around demanding respect. What a crock...


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Oh and Jeremy, I understand your angst towards Wilton's positions on Politics, but his Pittsburgh Pirates fandom is unquestionable.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:37 pm 
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This is why I never really get involved with debating politics, but I will say this. All of you Conservatives and Liberals are nuts. The problem with the lot of you is not your politics as much as you see yourselves as Conservatives or Liberals before you see yourselves as Americans. That's why this country needs a third party that falls in the middle where people do see both sides.

Quote:
People talk about the middle of the road as though it were unacceptable. Actually, all human problems, excepting morals, come into the gray areas. Things are not all black and white. There have to be compromises. The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters. -Dwight D. Eisenhower

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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Pirates13 -
Friendly wagers?
I'll offer 2 to 1 odds.
First bet. I bet you five dollars that Sarah Palin will not be the Republicans' candidate for presidency in 2012.
Second bet, I bet you five dollars that, if she is the Republicans' candidate, she won't win.

I'll pay you $10 for each bet if I am wrong.


Piratefan13 wrote:
Such a crass statement. I'd say challenge the subject and leave the personal characteristics out of the discussion. It is a cheap shot that indicates that you aren't as sold on your position as you lead us to believe.


You mean terms like "elitist attitudes of Leftist/Liberal Democrats?" Stones and glass houses.

Piratefan13 wrote:
, but one of the situations that irks me is the fact that somebody who sits on his/her couch and refuses to get a job is going to get health care at my expense. Screw that!!


And when that same person walks into an emergency room without insurance, is treated by a physician and cannot afford it . . . who pays for that? All of us do. Every single one of us. Our society will not tolerate (nor should it IMO) simply allowing people to go without medical treatment based upon financial standing or ability to pay.

And what about the person with a 3,000 sq. foot home, recently laid off but looking for a job, two cars in the garage, $30,000 in credit card debt, $20,000 in unpaid medical bills and who just filed for bankruptcy protection. Who pays for this? We do. We all do.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: It will take a miracle . . .
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:55 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
This is why I never really get involved with debating politics, but I will say this. All of you Conservatives and Liberals are nuts. The problem with the lot of you is not your politics as much as you see yourselves as Conservatives or Liberals before you see yourselves as Americans. That's why this country needs a third party that falls in the middle where people do see both sides.

Quote:
People talk about the middle of the road as though it were unacceptable. Actually, all human problems, excepting morals, come into the gray areas. Things are not all black and white. There have to be compromises. The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters. -Dwight D. Eisenhower



Hear, hear.

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