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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:59 am 
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I see. So what you're saying is that we should not work to try and change this country for what we perceive to be for the better. We should just let it be and instead move to a new country. Well, given how much you seem to be disgusted with so many people living in the United States, including members of Congress and the Obama administration, why haven't you taken your own advice? Why haven't you left?


Your suggestion that I utilze my advice is an oxymoron at best. I thought I was very clear in saying that I am disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment, meaning that I am in full favor of Pro-American sentiment, which in turn means that I love my country and I love the way it was BEFORE Obama took office. Sure there are some flaws that need to be reworked as with any nation, but not at the wholesale level Obama is taking it.

Anti-American sentiment from our supposed leader...
"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world." Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy...
"The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history." Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:14 am 
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It is impossible to eliminate the possibility of another 9/11; the only thing you can do is lessen its likelihood. I'm no intelligence expert, so asking me what we should do is stupid. I will, however, suggest one particular tactic: stop giving those that would do us harm a reason to do us harm. As No. 9 stated above, the War in Iraq has galvanized support for al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations that wish us ill. I would suggest not entering countries for the purported reason of "fighting tyranny" when (1) that's not the real reason why we are there, and (2) those who are oppressed in said countries do not want us around.


Sure it is... with tighter defenses and keeping the terrorists fighting us on their own soil, we've went 8 years without another attack.

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stop giving those that would do us harm a reason to do us harm

Are you serious Wilton? Do you really believe in your heart that if we just leave them alone, that they'd forget about us? That is their entire mission in life, so what are they supposed to do when we "ignore" them? Nieve Wilton, extremely nieve.

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As No. 9 stated above, the War in Iraq has galvanized support for al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations that wish us ill. I would suggest not entering countries for the purported reason of "fighting tyranny" when (1) that's not the real reason why we are there, and (2) those who are oppressed in said countries do not want us around


Galvanized support of Al-Qaeda? Maybe. But ultimately they are on the run, on the defensive, which gives us here at home some safety and some time to design and implement better plans to protect our soil.

And stop whining about why we went in to Iraq.

1. We knew Saddam Hussein had WMD's because we sold them to him. duh
2. President Bush declared war on terrorism and nations that supported it. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that Saddam wasn't supporting terrorsim. This report gives an account. http://www.husseinandterror.com/
3. Everybody in the country, Liberals, Republicans, Independents, all supported this effort, then when we get a little bloody, a little dirty, they turn like cowards. Thats the problem with Democrats, extreme liberals, and some Republicans. They don't have the guts to finish the job (Bush #1). Much like many Pirate fans, when things get ugly, they abandon support for the plan and cry and whimper about the negative results rather than the positive ones. I see many positives coming from removing Saddam Hussein and liberating the Iraq people from his reign of terror. Not to mention, it puts us in prime tactical position to eliminate Iran when the time comes.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:55 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I am literally disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment that has risen up in our own nation. This argument is so similiar to the one we have concerning the PBC, if you hate America so much, then find another country to live in, one that meets all of your guidelines and worldly impact.


No that is not a similar arguement. Not even close. You can do as I have done and not be a fan of another team and just stop supporting the local one.
PF13, you are wasting your time with young Wilton. He has not been in the real world and has been influenced by a left way of thinking... most likely from schooling. When I was younger, I had different views too.
I have a libertarian point of view which tends to be conservative but it also does not want too much government intrusion. I dont like the socialist trends that I see with our new government

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:07 pm 
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You seem pretty sure that Saddam played some role in 9/11. While I don't agree with that conclusion - I thought that it was pretty well determined that Saddam was essentially neutered by the sanctions and did not want inspectors in jis country because he was scared of Iran and didn't want to appear weak.

That being written - why didn't Bush 2 send you and the boys to KICK ASS in Saudi Arabia? That's where the terrorists were from and from where financing was obtained.

You're either with us or against us, right?

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:47 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
You seem pretty sure that Saddam played some role in 9/11. While I don't agree with that conclusion - I thought that it was pretty well determined that Saddam was essentially neutered by the sanctions and did not want inspectors in jis country because he was scared of Iran and didn't want to appear weak.

That being written - why didn't Bush 2 send you and the boys to KICK ASS in Saudi Arabia? That's where the terrorists were from and from where financing was obtained.

You're either with us or against us, right?


Good question? Why didn't he? Additionally, I don't think Saddam was directly involved with 9/11 but the war is against ALL terrorism, not just the guys responsible for 9/11.

You don't have to be a smart ass about the KICK ASS crap either...


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
You don't have to be a smart ass about the KICK ASS crap either...


I agree and I regretted it as soon as I hit "submit." My apologies to you directly and to others. There was no need for the comment at all. I've advocated civility here and that was not a civil comment. Mea culpa.

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:05 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Good question? Why didn't he?


I think that you are asking this rhetorically but I'm pretty sure that he didn't attack Saudi Arabia for the same reason that we didn't attack China after their military drove tanks over their citizens and the reason why we don't attack Russia for their human rights violations. The same reason that we don't demand change in Tibet or any number of African countries with widespread genocide. It is not in America's economic interest to do so.

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Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:54 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
Really? You think the United States should be isolationist? We should be some rogue country that doesn't give a damn what other countries (with whom we've signed a number of treaties) think about us? We should have no international friends at all?


I'm sorry, let me be specific.

1. Obama telling the world that we are not a Christian Nation. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/obama-us-not-a-christian_n_183772.html, so I guess that's why we have been trying to rid our court systems of the 10 Commandments, our schools of saying the Pledge of Aliegence, and God from our money. Seems pretty clear to me that the founders based the entire nation on Christian beliefs and principals. I find there to be no other reason for him to broadcast this other than to try and appease Muslim nations in hopes that they would feel better about us.

Then you apparently need to brush up on your American history. Obama's right: we are NOT a Christian nation. We are a SECULAR nation; we do not have a particular religion that defines our country. Our founders strove to separate church from state. Our country was founded upon the belief that religion should have no part in the nation's governance, and government should have no part in regulating religion. It's the reason why we have the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment. If you're not convinced, I suggest you read up on Thomas Jefferson and his feelings regarding religion.

Unfortunately, our later governmental leaders have been less faithful to this principle. Hence, the injection of God into the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50's.

Piratefan13 wrote:
2. Scrapping the missle proposals promised to Poland and Czech Republic (2 smaller nations) in favor of Russia (a larger more influencial nation), I am assuming that Poland and the Czech WERE our international friends. Using your inquiry above, how do you rate this situation? Was it good to toss aside promises made to these two nations?

I don't know, as I don't know enough about the situation to develop a well-reasoned opinion. But, since you bring it up, it does seem that you are softening your stance on whether we should care about what other countries think of us.

Quote:
3. What does Obama plan to do when Iran has full Nuclear capabilities (probably will be back in Chicago then)? Plead with Iran to be "good" by using his extreme power of persuation (worked for the Olympics). Do you believe that if we just leave the Middle East alone that they will forget about us? To have that belief is to have a false sense of security in an unproven and unrealistic concept. Radical Islam will always hate us regardless of whether we claim to be a "more Muslim nation" or less of a Christian one. Radical Islam is dedicated to the belief that all infidels (Christians, etc) should be wiped from the earth, and they will continue to fight that war until the end of time. So frankly, I'd rather fight that war on their soil than ours. By the way, Bill Clinton used the "appeasement" approach for 8 full years, only to be met with the USS Cole bombing, the bombing of the WTC (first time), the bombing of 2 Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and ultimately the successful 9/11 attacks (yes they belong to him because of the lengthy planning process originated in his term). Okay, now lets list the attacks on American soil during George Bush's term... ahhh that would be none.

Actually 2688 days of terror free living. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/21/AR2009012103215.html

Terror free living, eh? Tell that to the mothers and fathers of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure they will tell you how terror-free their lives are.

I don't know what Obama's plans are for Iran's nuclear testing, but I won't presume that he'll be as ridiculous as your absurd characterization above. You're erecting straw men just to knock them down.

By the way, if you're so concerned with "Radical Islam," why don't you have the same concerns over radical Christians? There are just as many radical Bible-thumpers that would like to see Muslims eradicated from the Earth, so why haven't you decried these folks? I would encourage you to actually meet people who actually practice Islam; you'll find that many of them are a lot more reasonable than you are.

Piratefan13 wrote:
4. Using your argument that we as Americans are seen as conceited, pompous assholes, how then do you defend Obama and his wife making total asses of themselves over this Olympic situation.

I don't. I don't give a shit about the Olympics.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:15 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
I see. So what you're saying is that we should not work to try and change this country for what we perceive to be for the better. We should just let it be and instead move to a new country. Well, given how much you seem to be disgusted with so many people living in the United States, including members of Congress and the Obama administration, why haven't you taken your own advice? Why haven't you left?


Your suggestion that I utilze my advice is an oxymoron at best. I thought I was very clear in saying that I am disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment, meaning that I am in full favor of Pro-American sentiment, which in turn means that I love my country and I love the way it was BEFORE Obama took office. Sure there are some flaws that need to be reworked as with any nation, but not at the wholesale level Obama is taking it.

Anti-American sentiment from our supposed leader...
"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world." Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy...
"The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history." Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on.

So you think that recognizing the flaws of our nation, such as our sordid history regarding racism, is anti-American. I see.

By the way, those beliefs that you just rattled off: "Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy..." and "Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on," are quite possibly the most uninformed crazy talk I've heard in a while.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:06 pm 
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So you think that recognizing the flaws of our nation, such as our sordid history regarding racism, is anti-American. I see.


Continually bringing old problems to the surface and giving them new life is about as productive as forgiving someone but bringing it up over and over just to be sure they knew they were wrong.

Fact: We were misguided in our treatment of African-Americans
Fact: Its over... The more people like you and the President continue to bring it up, the more life you give it, negative feelings are again restored, and you take years of hard work by both sides and just toss them aside.

Advice: Let it go, move on, continue to build off the good that has come from the efforts of Martin Luther King and many others and stop taking us back to the 50's and 60's. IT IS UNPRODUCTIVE.

Just because a few people on one side and a few people on the other haven't figured out that we have moved forward it doesn't mean that the overall problem is still there. You just can't hire people to the White House that think "whitey" is the reason for all their problems. Its nieve and childish to say the least. To be frank, his(Van Jones) views on white people bought me back to a place that I had left many years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:14 pm 
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By the way, those beliefs that you just rattled off: "Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy..." and "Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on," are quite possibly the most uninformed crazy talk I've heard in a while.


Crazy talk? what are we a third world country (or is that what you want us to be)? We are world leaders in many categories, its just a fact of life, I'm not going to be embarrased about America. I don't hide my American heritage, I am proud to be an American, proud to have served my country(I don't care if you, Wilton, like it or not).

As far as your second point... read the above post.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Then you apparently need to brush up on your American history. Obama's right: we are NOT a Christian nation. We are a SECULAR nation; we do not have a particular religion that defines our country. Our founders strove to separate church from state. Our country was founded upon the belief that religion should have no part in the nation's governance, and government should have no part in regulating religion. It's the reason why we have the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment. If you're not convinced, I suggest you read up on Thomas Jefferson and his feelings regarding religion.

Unfortunately, our later governmental leaders have been less faithful to this principle. Hence, the injection of God into the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50's.


My friend, I don't know where the anger towards Christianity comes from but this world is not about people, its about a battle between good and evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan and there is no other teams. Muslims and Christians have been warring for centuries, each believing that they are on the right side. Humans by nature are evil, that means all of us in every nation, on every continent. The general belief that people are inherantly good is a myth. I argue with you Wilton not because I am angry with you or that I hate you, I argue with you because ultimately I have hope that when your days end, that you would find yourself on the right side. Sure you may have some angry retort that I am trying to preach to you or something, but if that makes you feel better, then by all means have at it. I argue with folks here and sometimes get heated and say things I regret later but really, I care about everybody on this board, regardless if I've never met them in person before or not. I even care about BH, because that is what true Christianity is all about.

Most of my argument stems from the importance of America protecting Isreal as a nation. Isreal and its actions are directly related to the Bible and the end times. There are certain guideposts that Christians monitor that may provide a hint of when end times are to come and Isreal is one of them. The US is one of the very few if only true aly of Isreal and the more we damage that relationship by giving in to Palistinian leadership and forcing Isreal to give up land, the closer we come to the final days. The land was given to the Jews in early Biblical times by God, its as much as stated numerous times in the Bible. Playing around with that land and the division of it is literally playing with fire (pun intended).

The conclusion here is our viewpoints are worlds apart, you and I could argue for decades without ever getting close to an agreement because you argue that America should change its ways to promote peace throughout the world and I know that there will never be peace on this earth until after Jesus Christ returns. Other than that, I wish you could see it from where I'm standing, you'd understand me a whole lot more if you could.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:58 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Humans by nature are evil

Wow, that is a pretty blanket statement. I am sorry that you have that opinion. I must respectfully disagree on that one. To feel that way paints a pretty bleak picture of the world.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Humans by nature are evil

Wow, that is a pretty blanket statement. I am sorry that you have that opinion. I must respectfully disagree on that one. To feel that way paints a pretty bleak picture of the world.

I agree, and I would go further by saying that those who have such a bleak picture of the world likely have their view painted by personal events of their past, which saddens me. In my view, humans are generally self-interested, but they are also social, and they learn quickly that life is easier and more enjoyable living in harmony than in conflict. That's why we have rules and laws, both written and unwritten, that govern how we act and react to situations and others.

When people act in ways that are considered good, in my experience, it's not because they fear divine retribution or seek a better place after death; it's because doing so makes them feel good in return. I believe that there is some part of the human brain that responds positively to altruism, and that is why some people help others for the mere sake of helping others.

I'll respond to PF13's other comments later today, assuming I feel like doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
My friend, I don't know where the anger towards Christianity comes from but this world is not about people, its about a battle between good and evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan and there is no other teams.


Piratefan13 -
I will contend that being good or being evil is not defined by whether you follow Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or even if you believe in a Divine Being. Personally, I think that I'm a pretty good person and pretty far from "evil." However . . . I am really not someone who seems to derive a benefit from organized religion. Others do and I fully respect that. Heck, my grandfather was a Lutheran minister and a truly wonderful man.

In your post above and based upon previous posts, I'm not sure that I'd ever want to meet up with you. I'd fear what you might do given that I do not practice Christianity or any other religion.

And, I'd also disagree with you that pointing out the the USA is a secular nation is not "anger towards Christianity." It simply points out that our Founding Fathers set up our country to make sure that State and Church were separate because they were fleeing, in part, religious persecution in England.

For example, if I don't want mandated prayer in public school, its not because I dislike or hate Christianity. Its because I believe that public school is not the place for prayer. Prayer is eminently private and should remain that way. Private religious schools are, of course, a wholly different matter.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:17 pm 
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Ollie wrote:
Bob, here are some of our dictator friends over the years:

Abacha, General Sani ----------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ------------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ----------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois --------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude-----------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Hassan II-------------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -------------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ---------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Pol Pot---------------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ------------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio --------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian ----------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General ---------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael ------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan

Please don't shrug off this list. Do some investigating. The history of U.S. foreign policy is very interesting. We support brutal military regimes and overthow democratically elected leaders. Shoot, I left several off of this list including Saddam Hussein and supporting apartheid in S. Africa.

The majority of the people of these nations have no say.. they live in dire poverty in lands with more than enough resources, but they get nothing. Businessmen overseas make gobs of money, give kickbacks to the leaders (and the U.S. supports/ed these tyrants.) It's the way we do things and have for many, many years.


That's quite a list. It reads like something compiled by Noam Chomsky. Brunei? Fiji?

What, no Togo? Or Belize? Or Iceland?

Most of the relationships between the US government and the people you cite had to do with the effort to stop -- or at least contain -- the spread of international communism in the first couple of decades after World War II. But I don't get what that has to do with my question about bullying. OK, so many of those guys were not nice. But human history has been dominated by the use of force.

Yes, the US government backed the overthrow of Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran and Salvador Allende in Chile. Both were, if not Communist Party members, at least fellow travelers. Communism at the time already had consolidated its hold on Eastern Europe and was on the march in North Africa, Latin America, and East Asia. (We ourselves were only a few years removed from the Army-McCarthy hearings in Congress.) You're probably too young to have had this experience, but I'm of the generation that practiced ducking under our desks in grade school when the bell sounded for a simulated Soviet nuclear attack.

Oh, and as for Chiang Kai-shek, how many noncombatants is he estimated to have slaughtered compared to Mao Zedong?

The type of bullying I'm referring to is what the Kremlin does to Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Poland, and the Czech Republic. What China does to Taiwan. North Korea to South Korea. Syria to Lebanon. Sudan to Chad. What Hussein's Iraq did to Kuwait. And what Iran tries to do to Israel and Hugo Chavez's Venezuela to Colombia.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
You're probably too young to have had this experience, but I'm of the generation that practiced ducking under our desks in grade school when the bell sounded for a simulated Soviet nuclear attack.


I was of that generation. The absurdity of that lesson to avoid dying in a nuclear war should not be discounted. It is misinformation like that that I believe made many of my age question authority.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:00 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
My friend, I don't know where the anger towards Christianity comes from but this world is not about people, its about a battle between good and evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan and there is no other teams.


Piratefan13 -
I will contend that being good or being evil is not defined by whether you follow Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or even if you believe in a Divine Being. Personally, I think that I'm a pretty good person and pretty far from "evil." However . . . I am really not someone who seems to derive a benefit from organized religion. Others do and I fully respect that. Heck, my grandfather was a Lutheran minister and a truly wonderful man.

In your post above and based upon previous posts, I'm not sure that I'd ever want to meet up with you. I'd fear what you might do given that I do not practice Christianity or any other religion.

And, I'd also disagree with you that pointing out the the USA is a secular nation is not "anger towards Christianity." It simply points out that our Founding Fathers set up our country to make sure that State and Church were separate because they were fleeing, in part, religious persecution in England.

For example, if I don't want mandated prayer in public school, its not because I dislike or hate Christianity. Its because I believe that public school is not the place for prayer. Prayer is eminently private and should remain that way. Private religious schools are, of course, a wholly different matter.


I was actually speaking directly to Wilton with my comment not indicating America as a whole was angry towards Christianity.

I'm sorry you feel that way... actually I am the type of Christian you'd want to meet. I have many non-Christian friends who don't have any interest in organized religion but I treat and love them the same. I am sad that you say that you would never want to meet me in person, talking through this board makes it so difficult to express oneself to another and have them understand where they are coming from. I feel like I have isolated myself as an extremist and Wilton does a great job at taking my passionate posts and ensuring that I look that way. Sure, I have some strong beliefs and moral values, I certainly have a different world view than many on this board, but that doesn't make me an extremist.

I am also against "forcing" anyone to do anything "Christian", but I believe if I want to read the Bible, pray, or hold a Bible study at school, then I should be able to do so. If I cannot, then what exactly is freedom?


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:47 pm 
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You have the freedom to choose a school where that is appropriate. Separation of church and state has been one of the cornerstones of our country since day 1. If one religion would be allowed those rights in school then all would have to be included and believe me, chaos would ensue. We deal with enough diversity in schools today and to add this aspect would be impossible deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:24 pm
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Really? You mean all that chaos BEFORE Madeline Murry O'Hare got a bug up her ass?

Sorry, separation of church and state has become something never intended by the founders, who simply did not want an official church of state such as in England, or that was currently then in Mass and CT.

( ZM steps down of soapbox and walks out of the public square)

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