Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:32 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:18 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:26 pm
Posts: 3006
Willton wrote:
Little do you realize that before Obama, we were the bully. Honestly, if we were such heroes during Bush's presidency, then why did nobody like us?


Honest, innocent question: why do we think the world's perception of us has changed? Anecdotally, my overseas colleagues and friends all think of America in the same ways they thought of America during the Bush administration. Further, in conversations with some of them, it is my interpretation that while they hated the Bush administration, their views of America and Americans were formed even prior to that, and that if anything, Bush embodied and confirmed those views.

Put another way, when I travel overseas, I certainly don't try to advertise that I am an American.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Little do you realize that before Obama, we were the bully. Honestly, if we were such heroes during Bush's presidency, then why did nobody like us?


Honest, innocent question: why do we think the world's perception of us has changed? Anecdotally, my overseas colleagues and friends all think of America in the same ways they thought of America during the Bush administration. Further, in conversations with some of them, it is my interpretation that while they hated the Bush administration, their views of America and Americans were formed even prior to that, and that if anything, Bush embodied and confirmed those views.

Put another way, when I travel overseas, I certainly don't try to advertise that I am an American.

Honest answer: as trite as it may sound, I think it's because we elected Obama to the presidency. I have a German friend who is getting his Ph.D. in neuroscience at Rutgers University, and he told me in the spring that people from his hometown, as well as Germany as a whole, were watching the 2008 American election rather closely, or at least more closely than they otherwise would. When Obama won the election, apparently people from Europe were shocked that it actually happened, given the sordid history of this nation regarding race and how different Obama was to presidents of the past. They viewed that election as a sign that America was trying to change, and as a result, they thought "Well, maybe they're not all assh***s after all," and decided to soften their stance regarding their views on Americans.

Obviously, this is all anecdotal and only represents the viewpoints of Germans in their 20's, but I think there's at least a nugget of truth to it, if not Europe-wide then at least in Germany.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Little do you realize that before Obama, we were the bully. Honestly, if we were such heroes during Bush's presidency, then why did nobody like us?


Honest, innocent question: why do we think the world's perception of us has changed? Anecdotally, my overseas colleagues and friends all think of America in the same ways they thought of America during the Bush administration. Further, in conversations with some of them, it is my interpretation that while they hated the Bush administration, their views of America and Americans were formed even prior to that, and that if anything, Bush embodied and confirmed those views.

Put another way, when I travel overseas, I certainly don't try to advertise that I am an American.


Why do we concern ourselves so much with what other countries think of us? Our country is making decisions based upon other nations impression of us. That is a terribly flawed way of governing in my opinion.

Wilton, you define us as the bully but you are incorrect in that belief. We respond to tryanny around the world, I don't know how in the world that is considered being a bully. We are virtually the only nation that will stand up to tyrants around the world. What is wrong with that? Let me let you in on a little secret, most of the world hates America, its freedoms and its ideals. They have always hated us, and they will continue to hate us, regardless of which President or political party occupies the office. When I traveled the world in the late 90's with the White House, we were always at risk, nothing has changed.

I am literally disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment that has risen up in our own nation. This argument is so similiar to the one we have concerning the PBC, if you hate America so much, then find another country to live in, one that meets all of your guidelines and worldly impact. If Achmed over in the Middle East doesn't like me because my wife wears pants and actually speaks at the dinner table, that's too freakin bad, I'm not going to send him a check so he feels better about me. He should just mind his business and worry about his own life. But let him start killing people because they lost a soccer match or showering his own people with chemical weapons then me and some of our boys are going to have to go over there and kick his ass.

This is the real pecking order!

Bully: Terrorism, Al-Queida, Taliban, Iran, nations that support terrorism.
Innocents: The people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, etc.
Police: America
Wusses: Now that Obama is in office... America.

Let me ask you something Wilton, in your high and mighty approach to governing America, how do you suggest we fight terrorism? How do you suppose we keep it from our doorstep? How do you eliminate the possibility of another 9/11? All you do is argue with me about policies, equal rights for prisoners, etc, but you never mention a plan that you would support in defending this nation against terrorism. I'd be interested in hearing your approach.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:53 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:26 pm
Posts: 3006
Willton wrote:
BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Little do you realize that before Obama, we were the bully. Honestly, if we were such heroes during Bush's presidency, then why did nobody like us?


Honest, innocent question: why do we think the world's perception of us has changed? Anecdotally, my overseas colleagues and friends all think of America in the same ways they thought of America during the Bush administration. Further, in conversations with some of them, it is my interpretation that while they hated the Bush administration, their views of America and Americans were formed even prior to that, and that if anything, Bush embodied and confirmed those views.

Put another way, when I travel overseas, I certainly don't try to advertise that I am an American.

Honest answer: as trite as it may sound, I think it's because we elected Obama to the presidency. I have a German friend who is getting his Ph.D. in neuroscience at Rutgers University, and he told me in the spring that people from his hometown, as well as Germany as a whole, were watching the 2008 American election rather closely, or at least more closely than they otherwise would. When Obama won the election, apparently people from Europe were shocked that it actually happened, given the sordid history of this nation regarding race and how different Obama was to presidents of the past. They viewed that election as a sign that America was trying to change, and as a result, they thought "Well, maybe they're not all assh***s after all," and decided to soften their stance regarding their views on Americans.

Obviously, this is all anecdotal and only represents the viewpoints of Germans in their 20's, but I think there's at least a nugget of truth to it, if not Europe-wide then at least in Germany.


Fair enough. Completely different from what of my friends from Germany have shared, but I'll accept that. I remember studying in Germany for a semester right after Bush was elected to his first term, before his inauguration, and everyone already thought all Americans were a-holes. I don't think stereotypes have changed just because we elected a new leader. Also, I have to admit, most of the reasons the rest of the world thinks we are all jagoffs has very little to do with our politicians and very much to do with our attitudes and behaviors. Objectively, I tend to agree that we ARE jagoffs...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5903
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
Piratefan13 wrote:
If Achmed over in the Middle East doesn't like me because my wife wears pants and actually speaks at the dinner table, that's too freakin bad, I'm not going to send him a check so he feels better about me. He should just mind his business and worry about his own life. But let him start killing people because they lost a soccer match or showering his own people with chemical weapons then me and some of our boys are going to have to go over there and kick his ass.


You forgot to add that the hypothetical Achmed would have to live in a country that may have resources of interest to America because you have oppressive dictators in a large number of countries killing their own people, committing genocide and the U.S. isn't "sending you and the boys to kick ass."

And, as far as sending "a check" to the Middle East is concerned . . . how much U.S. taxpayer money has been spent to supposedly "assist" those people who don't let women wear pants or speak at the dinner table? That, as our economy spiraled into disastrous shape, billions of U.S. taxpayer money went to Iraq instead of to our schools, for our roads, to our policemen, to our firemen, etc. While our government spends hundreds of billions of dollars abroad . . . . the problems here at home multiply.

The notion that America could go to Iraq (and KICK ASS!!) and build a democracy by removing Saddam from power ignores the long history and distrust among the residents of that country. Instead, the war has been a recruiting tool for the terrorists. We've spent billions of dollars which could have been put to much better use here at home or at least taking the fight to the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan and capturing/killing bin Laden.

And, let me ask you this . . . I take it that you believe that America has the right to kick any country's ass when it is perceived that the country is treating its people wrongly. Would that country have the same right if it perceived that the US was committing atrocities? Or, do we as Americans have a moral superiority which makes us better and the sole authority on what is right versus what is wrong?

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:00 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:09 pm
Posts: 2083
Location: Hingham, MA
I would like to know whom, exactly, the US has been bullying. Those of you who hold this view, help me out here. And please be specific.

_________________
If you think nobody notices you and you're all alone, try not paying your bills.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:18 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6301
Personally, I don't think we bully as much as we can't seem to realize when to keep our nose out of things. It seems to happen in 20-25 year intervals. JMHO :cry: :cry:


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:58 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Piratefan13 wrote:
Why do we concern ourselves so much with what other countries think of us? Our country is making decisions based upon other nations impression of us. That is a terribly flawed way of governing in my opinion.

Really? You think the United States should be isolationist? We should be some rogue country that doesn't give a damn what other countries (with whom we've signed a number of treaties) think about us? We should have no international friends at all?

Take a step back a minute, PF13. Think about the last time you did something for your wife. Why did you do it? Was it because you care about what she thinks of you? What about the last time you did something to affect the way your friends think about you? Think about those times, and then get back to me on why you think we shouldn't give a damn about what other countries think of us.

Piratefan13 wrote:
Wilton, you define us as the bully but you are incorrect in that belief. We respond to tryanny around the world, I don't know how in the world that is considered being a bully. We are virtually the only nation that will stand up to tyrants around the world. What is wrong with that? Let me let you in on a little secret, most of the world hates America, its freedoms and its ideals. They have always hated us, and they will continue to hate us, regardless of which President or political party occupies the office. When I traveled the world in the late 90's with the White House, we were always at risk, nothing has changed.

What's wrong with that is that it is disingenuous. When was the last time we as a nation entered a country in Africa to fight tyranny? When was the last time we entered a country in which the United States, or at least those close to members of the administration, did not have a pecuniary interest?

Piratefan13 wrote:
I am literally disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment that has risen up in our own nation. This argument is so similiar to the one we have concerning the PBC, if you hate America so much, then find another country to live in, one that meets all of your guidelines and worldly impact.

I see. So what you're saying is that we should not work to try and change this country for what we perceive to be for the better. We should just let it be and instead move to a new country. Well, given how much you seem to be disgusted with so many people living in the United States, including members of Congress and the Obama administration, why haven't you taken your own advice? Why haven't you left?

Piratefan13 wrote:
Let me ask you something Wilton, in your high and mighty approach to governing America, how do you suggest we fight terrorism? How do you suppose we keep it from our doorstep? How do you eliminate the possibility of another 9/11? All you do is argue with me about policies, equal rights for prisoners, etc, but you never mention a plan that you would support in defending this nation against terrorism. I'd be interested in hearing your approach.

It is impossible to eliminate the possibility of another 9/11; the only thing you can do is lessen its likelihood. I'm no intelligence expert, so asking me what we should do is stupid. I will, however, suggest one particular tactic: stop giving those that would do us harm a reason to do us harm. As No. 9 stated above, the War in Iraq has galvanized support for al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations that wish us ill. I would suggest not entering countries for the purported reason of "fighting tyranny" when (1) that's not the real reason why we are there, and (2) those who are oppressed in said countries do not want us around.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:19 am
Posts: 1513
Bob in Boston wrote:
I would like to know whom, exactly, the US has been bullying. Those of you who hold this view, help me out here. And please be specific.


Bob, here are some of our dictator friends over the years:

Abacha, General Sani ----------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ------------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ----------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois --------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude-----------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Hassan II-------------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -------------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ---------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Pol Pot---------------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ------------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio --------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian ----------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General ---------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael ------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan

Please don't shrug off this list. Do some investigating. The history of U.S. foreign policy is very interesting. We support brutal military regimes and overthow democratically elected leaders. Shoot, I left several off of this list including Saddam Hussein and supporting apartheid in S. Africa.

The majority of the people of these nations have no say.. they live in dire poverty in lands with more than enough resources, but they get nothing. Businessmen overseas make gobs of money, give kickbacks to the leaders (and the U.S. supports/ed these tyrants.) It's the way we do things and have for many, many years. Like my college Biology teacher said "there's no such thing as a free lunch."


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:48 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Quote:
Really? You think the United States should be isolationist? We should be some rogue country that doesn't give a damn what other countries (with whom we've signed a number of treaties) think about us? We should have no international friends at all?


I'm sorry, let me be specific.

1. Obama telling the world that we are not a Christian Nation. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/obama-us-not-a-christian_n_183772.html, so I guess that's why we have been trying to rid our court systems of the 10 Commandments, our schools of saying the Pledge of Aliegence, and God from our money. Seems pretty clear to me that the founders based the entire nation on Christian beliefs and principals. I find there to be no other reason for him to broadcast this other than to try and appease Muslim nations in hopes that they would feel better about us.

2. Scrapping the missle proposals promised to Poland and Czech Republic (2 smaller nations) in favor of Russia (a larger more influencial nation), I am assuming that Poland and the Czech WERE our international friends. Using your inquiry above, how do you rate this situation? Was it good to toss aside promises made to these two nations?

3. What does Obama plan to do when Iran has full Nuclear capabilities (probably will be back in Chicago then)? Plead with Iran to be "good" by using his extreme power of persuation (worked for the Olympics). Do you believe that if we just leave the Middle East alone that they will forget about us? To have that belief is to have a false sense of security in an unproven and unrealistic concept. Radical Islam will always hate us regardless of whether we claim to be a "more Muslim nation" or less of a Christian one. Radical Islam is dedicated to the belief that all infidels (Christians, etc) should be wiped from the earth, and they will continue to fight that war until the end of time. So frankly, I'd rather fight that war on their soil than ours. By the way, Bill Clinton used the "appeasement" approach for 8 full years, only to be met with the USS Cole bombing, the bombing of the WTC (first time), the bombing of 2 Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and ultimately the successful 9/11 attacks (yes they belong to him because of the lengthy planning process originated in his term). Okay, now lets list the attacks on American soil during George Bush's term... ahhh that would be none.

Actually 2688 days of terror free living. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/21/AR2009012103215.html

4. Using your argument that we as Americans are seen as conceited, pompous assholes, how then do you defend Obama and his wife making total asses of themselves over this Olympic situation. In particular, Michelle Obama saying that it would mean so much to her dad. What does the world care about her freakin dad? I believe the mere involvement of the President in the Olympic process galvanized the negative attitude of the world of us as Americans. Obama actually believed that if he gave some heartfelt self-centered speech that the Olympic committee and the world would just fall at his feet? Chicago we promptly eliminated in the first round. Ouch!


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:59 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Quote:
I see. So what you're saying is that we should not work to try and change this country for what we perceive to be for the better. We should just let it be and instead move to a new country. Well, given how much you seem to be disgusted with so many people living in the United States, including members of Congress and the Obama administration, why haven't you taken your own advice? Why haven't you left?


Your suggestion that I utilze my advice is an oxymoron at best. I thought I was very clear in saying that I am disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment, meaning that I am in full favor of Pro-American sentiment, which in turn means that I love my country and I love the way it was BEFORE Obama took office. Sure there are some flaws that need to be reworked as with any nation, but not at the wholesale level Obama is taking it.

Anti-American sentiment from our supposed leader...
"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world." Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy...
"The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history." Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:14 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Quote:
It is impossible to eliminate the possibility of another 9/11; the only thing you can do is lessen its likelihood. I'm no intelligence expert, so asking me what we should do is stupid. I will, however, suggest one particular tactic: stop giving those that would do us harm a reason to do us harm. As No. 9 stated above, the War in Iraq has galvanized support for al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations that wish us ill. I would suggest not entering countries for the purported reason of "fighting tyranny" when (1) that's not the real reason why we are there, and (2) those who are oppressed in said countries do not want us around.


Sure it is... with tighter defenses and keeping the terrorists fighting us on their own soil, we've went 8 years without another attack.

Quote:
stop giving those that would do us harm a reason to do us harm

Are you serious Wilton? Do you really believe in your heart that if we just leave them alone, that they'd forget about us? That is their entire mission in life, so what are they supposed to do when we "ignore" them? Nieve Wilton, extremely nieve.

Quote:
As No. 9 stated above, the War in Iraq has galvanized support for al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations that wish us ill. I would suggest not entering countries for the purported reason of "fighting tyranny" when (1) that's not the real reason why we are there, and (2) those who are oppressed in said countries do not want us around


Galvanized support of Al-Qaeda? Maybe. But ultimately they are on the run, on the defensive, which gives us here at home some safety and some time to design and implement better plans to protect our soil.

And stop whining about why we went in to Iraq.

1. We knew Saddam Hussein had WMD's because we sold them to him. duh
2. President Bush declared war on terrorism and nations that supported it. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that Saddam wasn't supporting terrorsim. This report gives an account. http://www.husseinandterror.com/
3. Everybody in the country, Liberals, Republicans, Independents, all supported this effort, then when we get a little bloody, a little dirty, they turn like cowards. Thats the problem with Democrats, extreme liberals, and some Republicans. They don't have the guts to finish the job (Bush #1). Much like many Pirate fans, when things get ugly, they abandon support for the plan and cry and whimper about the negative results rather than the positive ones. I see many positives coming from removing Saddam Hussein and liberating the Iraq people from his reign of terror. Not to mention, it puts us in prime tactical position to eliminate Iran when the time comes.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:55 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:12 am
Posts: 758
Piratefan13 wrote:
I am literally disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment that has risen up in our own nation. This argument is so similiar to the one we have concerning the PBC, if you hate America so much, then find another country to live in, one that meets all of your guidelines and worldly impact.


No that is not a similar arguement. Not even close. You can do as I have done and not be a fan of another team and just stop supporting the local one.
PF13, you are wasting your time with young Wilton. He has not been in the real world and has been influenced by a left way of thinking... most likely from schooling. When I was younger, I had different views too.
I have a libertarian point of view which tends to be conservative but it also does not want too much government intrusion. I dont like the socialist trends that I see with our new government

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5903
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
You seem pretty sure that Saddam played some role in 9/11. While I don't agree with that conclusion - I thought that it was pretty well determined that Saddam was essentially neutered by the sanctions and did not want inspectors in jis country because he was scared of Iran and didn't want to appear weak.

That being written - why didn't Bush 2 send you and the boys to KICK ASS in Saudi Arabia? That's where the terrorists were from and from where financing was obtained.

You're either with us or against us, right?

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
No. 9 wrote:
You seem pretty sure that Saddam played some role in 9/11. While I don't agree with that conclusion - I thought that it was pretty well determined that Saddam was essentially neutered by the sanctions and did not want inspectors in jis country because he was scared of Iran and didn't want to appear weak.

That being written - why didn't Bush 2 send you and the boys to KICK ASS in Saudi Arabia? That's where the terrorists were from and from where financing was obtained.

You're either with us or against us, right?


Good question? Why didn't he? Additionally, I don't think Saddam was directly involved with 9/11 but the war is against ALL terrorism, not just the guys responsible for 9/11.

You don't have to be a smart ass about the KICK ASS crap either...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5903
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
Piratefan13 wrote:
You don't have to be a smart ass about the KICK ASS crap either...


I agree and I regretted it as soon as I hit "submit." My apologies to you directly and to others. There was no need for the comment at all. I've advocated civility here and that was not a civil comment. Mea culpa.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 5903
Location: 120 miles west of Iowa City
Piratefan13 wrote:
Good question? Why didn't he?


I think that you are asking this rhetorically but I'm pretty sure that he didn't attack Saudi Arabia for the same reason that we didn't attack China after their military drove tanks over their citizens and the reason why we don't attack Russia for their human rights violations. The same reason that we don't demand change in Tibet or any number of African countries with widespread genocide. It is not in America's economic interest to do so.

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:54 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
Really? You think the United States should be isolationist? We should be some rogue country that doesn't give a damn what other countries (with whom we've signed a number of treaties) think about us? We should have no international friends at all?


I'm sorry, let me be specific.

1. Obama telling the world that we are not a Christian Nation. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/obama-us-not-a-christian_n_183772.html, so I guess that's why we have been trying to rid our court systems of the 10 Commandments, our schools of saying the Pledge of Aliegence, and God from our money. Seems pretty clear to me that the founders based the entire nation on Christian beliefs and principals. I find there to be no other reason for him to broadcast this other than to try and appease Muslim nations in hopes that they would feel better about us.

Then you apparently need to brush up on your American history. Obama's right: we are NOT a Christian nation. We are a SECULAR nation; we do not have a particular religion that defines our country. Our founders strove to separate church from state. Our country was founded upon the belief that religion should have no part in the nation's governance, and government should have no part in regulating religion. It's the reason why we have the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment. If you're not convinced, I suggest you read up on Thomas Jefferson and his feelings regarding religion.

Unfortunately, our later governmental leaders have been less faithful to this principle. Hence, the injection of God into the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50's.

Piratefan13 wrote:
2. Scrapping the missle proposals promised to Poland and Czech Republic (2 smaller nations) in favor of Russia (a larger more influencial nation), I am assuming that Poland and the Czech WERE our international friends. Using your inquiry above, how do you rate this situation? Was it good to toss aside promises made to these two nations?

I don't know, as I don't know enough about the situation to develop a well-reasoned opinion. But, since you bring it up, it does seem that you are softening your stance on whether we should care about what other countries think of us.

Quote:
3. What does Obama plan to do when Iran has full Nuclear capabilities (probably will be back in Chicago then)? Plead with Iran to be "good" by using his extreme power of persuation (worked for the Olympics). Do you believe that if we just leave the Middle East alone that they will forget about us? To have that belief is to have a false sense of security in an unproven and unrealistic concept. Radical Islam will always hate us regardless of whether we claim to be a "more Muslim nation" or less of a Christian one. Radical Islam is dedicated to the belief that all infidels (Christians, etc) should be wiped from the earth, and they will continue to fight that war until the end of time. So frankly, I'd rather fight that war on their soil than ours. By the way, Bill Clinton used the "appeasement" approach for 8 full years, only to be met with the USS Cole bombing, the bombing of the WTC (first time), the bombing of 2 Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and ultimately the successful 9/11 attacks (yes they belong to him because of the lengthy planning process originated in his term). Okay, now lets list the attacks on American soil during George Bush's term... ahhh that would be none.

Actually 2688 days of terror free living. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/21/AR2009012103215.html

Terror free living, eh? Tell that to the mothers and fathers of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure they will tell you how terror-free their lives are.

I don't know what Obama's plans are for Iran's nuclear testing, but I won't presume that he'll be as ridiculous as your absurd characterization above. You're erecting straw men just to knock them down.

By the way, if you're so concerned with "Radical Islam," why don't you have the same concerns over radical Christians? There are just as many radical Bible-thumpers that would like to see Muslims eradicated from the Earth, so why haven't you decried these folks? I would encourage you to actually meet people who actually practice Islam; you'll find that many of them are a lot more reasonable than you are.

Piratefan13 wrote:
4. Using your argument that we as Americans are seen as conceited, pompous assholes, how then do you defend Obama and his wife making total asses of themselves over this Olympic situation.

I don't. I don't give a shit about the Olympics.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:15 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
I see. So what you're saying is that we should not work to try and change this country for what we perceive to be for the better. We should just let it be and instead move to a new country. Well, given how much you seem to be disgusted with so many people living in the United States, including members of Congress and the Obama administration, why haven't you taken your own advice? Why haven't you left?


Your suggestion that I utilze my advice is an oxymoron at best. I thought I was very clear in saying that I am disgusted with the Anti-American sentiment, meaning that I am in full favor of Pro-American sentiment, which in turn means that I love my country and I love the way it was BEFORE Obama took office. Sure there are some flaws that need to be reworked as with any nation, but not at the wholesale level Obama is taking it.

Anti-American sentiment from our supposed leader...
"In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world." Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy...
"The United States is still working through some of our own darker periods in our history." Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on.

So you think that recognizing the flaws of our nation, such as our sordid history regarding racism, is anti-American. I see.

By the way, those beliefs that you just rattled off: "Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy..." and "Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on," are quite possibly the most uninformed crazy talk I've heard in a while.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
Quote:
So you think that recognizing the flaws of our nation, such as our sordid history regarding racism, is anti-American. I see.


Continually bringing old problems to the surface and giving them new life is about as productive as forgiving someone but bringing it up over and over just to be sure they knew they were wrong.

Fact: We were misguided in our treatment of African-Americans
Fact: Its over... The more people like you and the President continue to bring it up, the more life you give it, negative feelings are again restored, and you take years of hard work by both sides and just toss them aside.

Advice: Let it go, move on, continue to build off the good that has come from the efforts of Martin Luther King and many others and stop taking us back to the 50's and 60's. IT IS UNPRODUCTIVE.

Just because a few people on one side and a few people on the other haven't figured out that we have moved forward it doesn't mean that the overall problem is still there. You just can't hire people to the White House that think "whitey" is the reason for all their problems. Its nieve and childish to say the least. To be frank, his(Van Jones) views on white people bought me back to a place that I had left many years ago.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits