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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:14 pm 
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By the way, those beliefs that you just rattled off: "Ahhh, we are the leaders in the world buddy..." and "Ahhh, SOME people who won't let it go are, others have grown up and moved on," are quite possibly the most uninformed crazy talk I've heard in a while.


Crazy talk? what are we a third world country (or is that what you want us to be)? We are world leaders in many categories, its just a fact of life, I'm not going to be embarrased about America. I don't hide my American heritage, I am proud to be an American, proud to have served my country(I don't care if you, Wilton, like it or not).

As far as your second point... read the above post.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:46 pm 
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Then you apparently need to brush up on your American history. Obama's right: we are NOT a Christian nation. We are a SECULAR nation; we do not have a particular religion that defines our country. Our founders strove to separate church from state. Our country was founded upon the belief that religion should have no part in the nation's governance, and government should have no part in regulating religion. It's the reason why we have the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment. If you're not convinced, I suggest you read up on Thomas Jefferson and his feelings regarding religion.

Unfortunately, our later governmental leaders have been less faithful to this principle. Hence, the injection of God into the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50's.


My friend, I don't know where the anger towards Christianity comes from but this world is not about people, its about a battle between good and evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan and there is no other teams. Muslims and Christians have been warring for centuries, each believing that they are on the right side. Humans by nature are evil, that means all of us in every nation, on every continent. The general belief that people are inherantly good is a myth. I argue with you Wilton not because I am angry with you or that I hate you, I argue with you because ultimately I have hope that when your days end, that you would find yourself on the right side. Sure you may have some angry retort that I am trying to preach to you or something, but if that makes you feel better, then by all means have at it. I argue with folks here and sometimes get heated and say things I regret later but really, I care about everybody on this board, regardless if I've never met them in person before or not. I even care about BH, because that is what true Christianity is all about.

Most of my argument stems from the importance of America protecting Isreal as a nation. Isreal and its actions are directly related to the Bible and the end times. There are certain guideposts that Christians monitor that may provide a hint of when end times are to come and Isreal is one of them. The US is one of the very few if only true aly of Isreal and the more we damage that relationship by giving in to Palistinian leadership and forcing Isreal to give up land, the closer we come to the final days. The land was given to the Jews in early Biblical times by God, its as much as stated numerous times in the Bible. Playing around with that land and the division of it is literally playing with fire (pun intended).

The conclusion here is our viewpoints are worlds apart, you and I could argue for decades without ever getting close to an agreement because you argue that America should change its ways to promote peace throughout the world and I know that there will never be peace on this earth until after Jesus Christ returns. Other than that, I wish you could see it from where I'm standing, you'd understand me a whole lot more if you could.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:58 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Humans by nature are evil

Wow, that is a pretty blanket statement. I am sorry that you have that opinion. I must respectfully disagree on that one. To feel that way paints a pretty bleak picture of the world.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:46 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Humans by nature are evil

Wow, that is a pretty blanket statement. I am sorry that you have that opinion. I must respectfully disagree on that one. To feel that way paints a pretty bleak picture of the world.

I agree, and I would go further by saying that those who have such a bleak picture of the world likely have their view painted by personal events of their past, which saddens me. In my view, humans are generally self-interested, but they are also social, and they learn quickly that life is easier and more enjoyable living in harmony than in conflict. That's why we have rules and laws, both written and unwritten, that govern how we act and react to situations and others.

When people act in ways that are considered good, in my experience, it's not because they fear divine retribution or seek a better place after death; it's because doing so makes them feel good in return. I believe that there is some part of the human brain that responds positively to altruism, and that is why some people help others for the mere sake of helping others.

I'll respond to PF13's other comments later today, assuming I feel like doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
My friend, I don't know where the anger towards Christianity comes from but this world is not about people, its about a battle between good and evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan and there is no other teams.


Piratefan13 -
I will contend that being good or being evil is not defined by whether you follow Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or even if you believe in a Divine Being. Personally, I think that I'm a pretty good person and pretty far from "evil." However . . . I am really not someone who seems to derive a benefit from organized religion. Others do and I fully respect that. Heck, my grandfather was a Lutheran minister and a truly wonderful man.

In your post above and based upon previous posts, I'm not sure that I'd ever want to meet up with you. I'd fear what you might do given that I do not practice Christianity or any other religion.

And, I'd also disagree with you that pointing out the the USA is a secular nation is not "anger towards Christianity." It simply points out that our Founding Fathers set up our country to make sure that State and Church were separate because they were fleeing, in part, religious persecution in England.

For example, if I don't want mandated prayer in public school, its not because I dislike or hate Christianity. Its because I believe that public school is not the place for prayer. Prayer is eminently private and should remain that way. Private religious schools are, of course, a wholly different matter.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:17 pm 
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Ollie wrote:
Bob, here are some of our dictator friends over the years:

Abacha, General Sani ----------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ------------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ----------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois --------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude-----------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Hassan II-------------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -------------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ---------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Pol Pot---------------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ------------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio --------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian ----------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General ---------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael ------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan

Please don't shrug off this list. Do some investigating. The history of U.S. foreign policy is very interesting. We support brutal military regimes and overthow democratically elected leaders. Shoot, I left several off of this list including Saddam Hussein and supporting apartheid in S. Africa.

The majority of the people of these nations have no say.. they live in dire poverty in lands with more than enough resources, but they get nothing. Businessmen overseas make gobs of money, give kickbacks to the leaders (and the U.S. supports/ed these tyrants.) It's the way we do things and have for many, many years.


That's quite a list. It reads like something compiled by Noam Chomsky. Brunei? Fiji?

What, no Togo? Or Belize? Or Iceland?

Most of the relationships between the US government and the people you cite had to do with the effort to stop -- or at least contain -- the spread of international communism in the first couple of decades after World War II. But I don't get what that has to do with my question about bullying. OK, so many of those guys were not nice. But human history has been dominated by the use of force.

Yes, the US government backed the overthrow of Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran and Salvador Allende in Chile. Both were, if not Communist Party members, at least fellow travelers. Communism at the time already had consolidated its hold on Eastern Europe and was on the march in North Africa, Latin America, and East Asia. (We ourselves were only a few years removed from the Army-McCarthy hearings in Congress.) You're probably too young to have had this experience, but I'm of the generation that practiced ducking under our desks in grade school when the bell sounded for a simulated Soviet nuclear attack.

Oh, and as for Chiang Kai-shek, how many noncombatants is he estimated to have slaughtered compared to Mao Zedong?

The type of bullying I'm referring to is what the Kremlin does to Ukraine, Georgia, Tajikistan, Poland, and the Czech Republic. What China does to Taiwan. North Korea to South Korea. Syria to Lebanon. Sudan to Chad. What Hussein's Iraq did to Kuwait. And what Iran tries to do to Israel and Hugo Chavez's Venezuela to Colombia.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
You're probably too young to have had this experience, but I'm of the generation that practiced ducking under our desks in grade school when the bell sounded for a simulated Soviet nuclear attack.


I was of that generation. The absurdity of that lesson to avoid dying in a nuclear war should not be discounted. It is misinformation like that that I believe made many of my age question authority.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:00 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
My friend, I don't know where the anger towards Christianity comes from but this world is not about people, its about a battle between good and evil, Heaven and Hell, God and Satan and there is no other teams.


Piratefan13 -
I will contend that being good or being evil is not defined by whether you follow Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or even if you believe in a Divine Being. Personally, I think that I'm a pretty good person and pretty far from "evil." However . . . I am really not someone who seems to derive a benefit from organized religion. Others do and I fully respect that. Heck, my grandfather was a Lutheran minister and a truly wonderful man.

In your post above and based upon previous posts, I'm not sure that I'd ever want to meet up with you. I'd fear what you might do given that I do not practice Christianity or any other religion.

And, I'd also disagree with you that pointing out the the USA is a secular nation is not "anger towards Christianity." It simply points out that our Founding Fathers set up our country to make sure that State and Church were separate because they were fleeing, in part, religious persecution in England.

For example, if I don't want mandated prayer in public school, its not because I dislike or hate Christianity. Its because I believe that public school is not the place for prayer. Prayer is eminently private and should remain that way. Private religious schools are, of course, a wholly different matter.


I was actually speaking directly to Wilton with my comment not indicating America as a whole was angry towards Christianity.

I'm sorry you feel that way... actually I am the type of Christian you'd want to meet. I have many non-Christian friends who don't have any interest in organized religion but I treat and love them the same. I am sad that you say that you would never want to meet me in person, talking through this board makes it so difficult to express oneself to another and have them understand where they are coming from. I feel like I have isolated myself as an extremist and Wilton does a great job at taking my passionate posts and ensuring that I look that way. Sure, I have some strong beliefs and moral values, I certainly have a different world view than many on this board, but that doesn't make me an extremist.

I am also against "forcing" anyone to do anything "Christian", but I believe if I want to read the Bible, pray, or hold a Bible study at school, then I should be able to do so. If I cannot, then what exactly is freedom?


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:47 pm 
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You have the freedom to choose a school where that is appropriate. Separation of church and state has been one of the cornerstones of our country since day 1. If one religion would be allowed those rights in school then all would have to be included and believe me, chaos would ensue. We deal with enough diversity in schools today and to add this aspect would be impossible deal with.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:03 pm 
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Really? You mean all that chaos BEFORE Madeline Murry O'Hare got a bug up her ass?

Sorry, separation of church and state has become something never intended by the founders, who simply did not want an official church of state such as in England, or that was currently then in Mass and CT.

( ZM steps down of soapbox and walks out of the public square)

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:14 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
( ZM steps down of soapbox and walks out of the public square)


Yer killin' me ZM. 8-) 8-)
We would have every rep of every denomination of every sect wanting their time. We would get even less done. :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:38 pm 
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Bob in Boston wrote:
Both were, if not Communist Party members,


I will be blasted forevermore here, but I have to tell you that the entire Cold War was fake.. the majority of the world's wars staged. I am not the only person in the world who believes this. Key figures of every world government belong to the (brace yourself) "secret society." Our branch is the Council on Foreign Relations.. others go by different names.

Go ahead, let me have it. Or just put me on ignore. If I don't respond please don't take it as me being unfriendly.. it's just a waste of your time. I don't want to be a weirdo here, but I see the world differently. I just can't understand how you guys can believe anything our government says.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:21 am 
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Ollie wrote:
Bob in Boston wrote:
Both were, if not Communist Party members,


I will be blasted forevermore here, but I have to tell you that the entire Cold War was fake.. the majority of the world's wars staged. I am not the only person in the world who believes this. Key figures of every world government belong to the (brace yourself) "secret society." Our branch is the Council on Foreign Relations.. others go by different names.

Go ahead, let me have it. Or just put me on ignore. If I don't respond please don't take it as me being unfriendly.. it's just a waste of your time. I don't want to be a weirdo here, but I see the world differently. I just can't understand how you guys can believe anything our government says.

I'm sure you're not the only one who believes that. But, like those other believers, you have no evidence to support such a theory.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:35 am 
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So many investigations about Free Masonry exist. The ruling elite (Rockefellers, Morgans, Rothschilds, etc..) are Masons of the highest degree. They have control over world economics, involvement in undemocratic secret WTO meetings (the press is not allowed.)

Just for a second put the conspiracy theories aside.. the "9-11, JFK, we-knew-about-Pearl Harbor stuff." The majority of Masons have no involvement with and don't even know what goes on in the higher ranks. It's these secretive "super rich" who ruin capitalism, a system which could work with compassion.

Forty million people don't have health care and others can't afford deductibles. This is insane. There should be free health care, no homeless, no one hungry in this country.

Capitalism definitely works. It works for the elite, the bankers, corporations, the top 1-5%. True, there's been a little "trickle down," though the gaps are widening and soon we'll be the desired model, a land of haves and have-nots.

Every right we have as Americans is due to brave souls who fought this system.


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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:07 am 
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You forgot the Illuminati... :o

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:26 am 
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Gordon Gekko:
Image

The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it. Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it. You've got that killer instinct. Stick around pal, I've still got a lot to teach you.

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 Post subject: Re: This just in.....
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:16 am 
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Willton wrote:
[quote="BBF
Honest answer: as trite as it may sound, I think it's because we elected Obama to the presidency. I have a German friend who is getting his Ph.D. in neuroscience at Rutgers University, and he told me in the spring that people from his hometown, as well as Germany as a whole, were watching the 2008 American election rather closely, or at least more closely than they otherwise would. When Obama won the election, apparently people from Europe were shocked that it actually happened, given the sordid history of this nation regarding race and how different Obama was to presidents of the past. They viewed that election as a sign that America was trying to change, and as a result, they thought "Well, maybe they're not all assh***s after all," and decided to soften their stance regarding their views on Americans..


Wait a sec there Wilton. Did you catch what you wrote????

A German? A German and his fellow Germans are going to take some kind of morally superior high ground on the "sordid history" of the United States, when it comes to things lke racial matters?

Anyone else see that as insanely funny and insulting at the same time?


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