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 Post subject: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:14 am 
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The discussion of politics always leaves me perplexed. I know how I feel and as much as I try, I can't see those of oppossing views to be honest about right and wrong. I'm sure there is that belief by the other side but I can't logically understand it. So, help me here if you are a Christian Conservative or graduate of the King Ronald school of 'moral majority'.

When we go to war without provacation like Iraq or Vietnam or Korea, how can it be moral? When we kill people and have our own killed for no good reason, it can't be right. Can it? I mean war is in fact the greatest of unchristain activities, isn't it? What can be worse then killing especially when the innocent are included in the carniage. Yet many American Christians proudly profess to supporting these actions. How can that be construed as morally correct?

How can it be morally correct to see our fellow citizens die early because they were denied health care? What makes the Christian Right think it is ok for us to continue this practice and even have it become worse as each year goes forward? How can that be morally correct? Can the attitude that it doesn't happen to me make it right? Is that something we should be proud of or perpetuate? Moral High Ground? These aren't even the lazy people or the unwilling to spend, it is in many cases people who have reached their cap or simply denied by insurance companies, or whose coverage doesn't include certain things, or who have lost their job and can't afford the cobra because it is most of their unemployment. Don't we have a moral oblogation to help these fellow Americans? Who cares if it makes the government bigger? Which choice is worse?

There are plenty of examples to show we have at times lost our moral rudder. I don't mean just the 60s here I mean imprisioning Americaan citizens during WWII because they were of Japanese desent, I mean allowing slavery to continue to exist for the first 75 years of our country with church approval, or recently trying to force Terry Shivo be kept from rest under some moral edict that she was alive? How can we argue that stem cell research which promises to help save lives by development of cures should be denied because it is the Christian thing to do. How can torturing people by our government ever be considered morally correct? How can good honest Americans deceive themselves into believing these activities are alright because we win if we do them? How can this be Christian?

We all look at the Salem witchcraft trials and executions as reprehensable behavior but folks it was done under the leadership of people who considered themselves to be extemely Chritian and thought they held the moral high ground. They were doing God's work?

So, you see, I have real difficulties understanding how good Americans who want to do the right thing, the Christian thing, the moral thing can give a pass to all these things becuse...? Why? I've tried to be honest here and hope that someone can explain why they think we have done the right thing in any of these things. What is morally correct?

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:21 pm 
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Print this post out and take it to your nearest church. I don't think the community here is able to answer these legitimate questions. Thought provoking but more than we can handle in my newbie opinion.

My thoughts. (Worth probably $.02)
There were slaves in the time of Jesus and the slaves owners were instructed to treat them properly. (3 hots and a cot - I don't know?) Many American slaves were worse off when they were freed after the civil war. Many opted to stay on the plantation. By no means do I endorse salvery but it was a different time culturally.

Leaders are held to a higher standard. If sent to war a soldier is supposed obey authority but if the war is not a "righteous" war then the blood is on the leaders hands. Look at the Old Testament it is loaded with wars that were considered "proper".

I can't respond to your many questions but my final response regarding health care is; why does government have to take care of the poor who can't afford health care? It is all of our duties to lend aid to them. If you give a poor neighbor $50 to get medicine $50 goes to the person in need. If you rely on the government that same $50 trickles down to $20 in aid. Let's take care of our fellow man and not abdicate our responsibilty to the government.

With all due respect,

Hebner20

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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:03 am 
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Our government has been a playground bully for too long. I don't see anything changing anytime soon.

As for American Christians, many conservatives are against abortion, but don't think twice about our military killing babies in Iraq (many the result of bombing reservoirs) and sided with sanctions which caused tens of thousands of children to die.

I am against abortion myself. I considered myself pro-choice for most of my life, but at age 37 I married a Catholic who has greatly influenced me (abortions are illegal in my wife's country.) We often see the graphic photos that anti abortion protesters carry here (fully developed decapitated babies with crushed skulls.)

A Course in Miracles is helpful for many seeking more than the King James Bible in coping with life's questions. And in many mystical traditions everything is as it should be. The Bhagavad Gita is an amazing work that shows this. It's a divinely inspired work IMO whose main character Arjuna asks the most important questions. He is off to battle and regrets that he must kill his enemies, many of which are his relatives. His charioteer is none other than Lord Krishna and He urges Arjuna to fulfill his duty.

The Sanskrit term for those who seperate God and man, good & evil, etc. is "dvaita." Seeing God and man as One is advaita. When everything is God the world becomes joyous.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:22 am 
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Ollie wrote:
Our government has been a playground bully for too long. I don't see anything changing anytime soon.

As for American Christians, many conservatives are against abortion, but don't think twice about our military killing babies in Iraq (many the result of bombing reservoirs) and sided with sanctions which caused tens of thousands of children to die.

I am against abortion myself. I considered myself pro-choice for most of my life, but at age 37 I married a Catholic who has greatly influenced me (abortions are illegal in my wife's country.) We often see the graphic photos that anti abortion protesters carry here (fully developed decapitated babies with crushed skulls.)

A Course in Miracles is helpful for many seeking more than the King James Bible in coping with life's questions. And in many mystical traditions everything is as it should be. The Bhagavad Gita is an amazing work that shows this. It's a divinely inspired work IMO whose main character Arjuna asks the most important questions. He is off to battle and regrets that he must kill his enemies, many of which are his relatives. His charioteer is none other than Lord Krishna and He urges Arjuna to fulfill his duty.

The Sanskrit term for those who seperate God and man, good & evil, etc. is "dvaita." Seeing God and man as One is advaita. When everything is God the world becomes joyous.


On the contrary Ollie, most Dems are ok with killing babies(abortion), but go out of their way to save the lives of our enemies. How sick is that?


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:40 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
The discussion of politics always leaves me perplexed. I know how I feel and as much as I try, I can't see those of oppossing views to be honest about right and wrong. I'm sure there is that belief by the other side but I can't logically understand it. So, help me here if you are a Christian Conservative or graduate of the King Ronald school of 'moral majority'.

When we go to war without provacation like Iraq or Vietnam or Korea, how can it be moral? When we kill people and have our own killed for no good reason, it can't be right. Can it? I mean war is in fact the greatest of unchristain activities, isn't it? What can be worse then killing especially when the innocent are included in the carniage. Yet many American Christians proudly profess to supporting these actions. How can that be construed as morally correct?

How can it be morally correct to see our fellow citizens die early because they were denied health care? What makes the Christian Right think it is ok for us to continue this practice and even have it become worse as each year goes forward? How can that be morally correct? Can the attitude that it doesn't happen to me make it right? Is that something we should be proud of or perpetuate? Moral High Ground? These aren't even the lazy people or the unwilling to spend, it is in many cases people who have reached their cap or simply denied by insurance companies, or whose coverage doesn't include certain things, or who have lost their job and can't afford the cobra because it is most of their unemployment. Don't we have a moral oblogation to help these fellow Americans? Who cares if it makes the government bigger? Which choice is worse?

There are plenty of examples to show we have at times lost our moral rudder. I don't mean just the 60s here I mean imprisioning Americaan citizens during WWII because they were of Japanese desent, I mean allowing slavery to continue to exist for the first 75 years of our country with church approval, or recently trying to force Terry Shivo be kept from rest under some moral edict that she was alive? How can we argue that stem cell research which promises to help save lives by development of cures should be denied because it is the Christian thing to do. How can torturing people by our government ever be considered morally correct? How can good honest Americans deceive themselves into believing these activities are alright because we win if we do them? How can this be Christian?

We all look at the Salem witchcraft trials and executions as reprehensable behavior but folks it was done under the leadership of people who considered themselves to be extemely Chritian and thought they held the moral high ground. They were doing God's work?

So, you see, I have real difficulties understanding how good Americans who want to do the right thing, the Christian thing, the moral thing can give a pass to all these things becuse...? Why? I've tried to be honest here and hope that someone can explain why they think we have done the right thing in any of these things. What is morally correct?


You have a common misunderstanding of Christianity and people in general. Just because you are a Christian, that doesn't mean we should walk around with our hands folded singing Joy to the World. Read any parts of the Bible and you will find wars, there are even wars where God destroys entire nations(women and children as well). Many churches today envison the Christian man as this docile creature, at peace with everyone, it is simply a warped and twisted approach. The New Testament portrays the believer as a warrior, and we must but on our armour each morning to do battle. Why would we need armour if God has envisioned us to be docile?

I'll tell you why... Ephesians 6:12 "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

There is a spiritual war that surrounds us everyday, many are oblivious to it, evil men in countries like Iraq, North Korea, Iran, mass murderers here in America, as well as theives, rapists, etc. are all products of wickedness that surrounds them. And when God created man, He gave man the free will to make his own choices. Its what we do with that free will that comes into question. You think us warring with Iraq is bad and immoral, its lucky for them that they didn't live during the Old Testament times when God's anger burned against nations that were evil. In some cases we cannot even find proof of their existance(Phillistines).

The bottom line is the countries you mentioned are evil in general, now everyone in those countries may not be evil, but may be oppressed by people like Saddam Hussein, America removed that obstacle, giving those people again the ability to make their own choices. I find no problem with that.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
On the contrary Ollie, most Dems are ok with killing babies(abortion), but go out of their way to save the lives of our enemies. How sick is that?


Correct answer. I'll never forget reading about Al Gore after we invaded Iraq. He kept saying we need to go into deep discussion and talks with Hussein and leaders of the Taliban. Really? Talks ended when they took the war to American soil. I'd much rather have a war fought on the enemies territory rather than wait for it to come to my hometown.

Now, I realize I'll get the same backlash like "Hussein wasn't a part of 9-11. There were no WOMD." Blah blah blah. The leaders of our country have so much more information at their fingertips than what FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC or any other network will ever realize. That my friends, is a good thing. There is a reason we have troops over there and are actually sending more troops soon. Obama said he was going to evacuate the Middle East as soon as he was elected. There is a reason we are still there. And NO, it isn't to clean up Bush's mess. It was a mess to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:20 pm 
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Religion has started more wars than any reason in all of time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:39 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Religion has started more wars than any reason in all of time.


Truthfully AZ, has there ever been a war that didn't have its roots based in religion or religious ideology?


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:12 pm 
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Good point. Does communism count in that? If not, I would contend Viet Nam and Korea. The Civil War. The Revolutionary War.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:32 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Religion has started more wars than any reason in all of time.


Truthfully AZ, has there ever been a war that didn't have its roots based in religion or religious ideology?

The American Revolution comes to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:32 am 
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We need to re-read Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's travels and think about his thoughts on war and the reasons for fighting them.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:41 am 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
The leaders of our country have so much more information at their fingertips than what FoxNews, CNN, MSNBC or any other network will ever realize. That my friends, is a good thing.


The government hiding information is a good thing? You kiddin' me? (Where's Coach Mora when you need him?)

In a sense what you are saying is true, IA. (I apologize.. the above quote looks to be Pirate13's but I think it's yours.) Clearly our government knows more, but they allow the corporations to control our media, and that's a conflict of interests to say the least. Journalists know what they can and can not say. Most of the reporters for alternative news outlets use to work for corporate owned media. I've heard them interviewed many times. They leave because their stories were constantly censored. Their former editors are in bed with the politicians and CEOs. The butt kissers (like Sam Donaldson and Cokie Roberts) stay and move up in the business.

The top men of the major networks belong to the same country clubs as Dubya and Clinton and Reagan and King Abdullah and other leaders.. like the presidents of Turkey (our ally!) who has killed more Kurds than Saddam. All that network news is garbage, IA. I know your wife is a reporter.. local news coverage is more trustworthy. But the national media? They don't tell us jack$hit of what really goes on.

What you are saying is that it's OK for our government to suppress the media. Or do you think the media is that inept? Reporters weren't so inept during the Vietnam War (back when journalists weren't forced to bunk with the military.) I'm telling you all that it's more than suppression.. it's outright manipulation.

And yes, sub, Gulliver's Travels is a good work. It's too bad he didn't get shipwrecked on one of those Tahitian islands where Gauguin relaxed, painting topless native girls all day.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:39 pm 
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The government withholding information from the public is critical to the protection of this nation. Furthermore, much of the information would be useless to Americans anyway, but devastatingin the handsof our adversaries. Even Obama has scaled back his "transparency" because too much information to the public causes kaos and fear.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:43 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
The discussion of politics always leaves me perplexed. I know how I feel and as much as I try, I can't see those of oppossing views to be honest about right and wrong. I'm sure there is that belief by the other side but I can't logically understand it. So, help me here if you are a Christian Conservative or graduate of the King Ronald school of 'moral majority'.

When we go to war without provacation like Iraq or Vietnam or Korea, how can it be moral? When we kill people and have our own killed for no good reason, it can't be right. Can it? I mean war is in fact the greatest of unchristain activities, isn't it? What can be worse then killing especially when the innocent are included in the carniage. Yet many American Christians proudly profess to supporting these actions. How can that be construed as morally correct?

How can it be morally correct to see our fellow citizens die early because they were denied health care? What makes the Christian Right think it is ok for us to continue this practice and even have it become worse as each year goes forward? How can that be morally correct? Can the attitude that it doesn't happen to me make it right? Is that something we should be proud of or perpetuate? Moral High Ground? These aren't even the lazy people or the unwilling to spend, it is in many cases people who have reached their cap or simply denied by insurance companies, or whose coverage doesn't include certain things, or who have lost their job and can't afford the cobra because it is most of their unemployment. Don't we have a moral oblogation to help these fellow Americans? Who cares if it makes the government bigger? Which choice is worse?

There are plenty of examples to show we have at times lost our moral rudder. I don't mean just the 60s here I mean imprisioning Americaan citizens during WWII because they were of Japanese desent, I mean allowing slavery to continue to exist for the first 75 years of our country with church approval, or recently trying to force Terry Shivo be kept from rest under some moral edict that she was alive? How can we argue that stem cell research which promises to help save lives by development of cures should be denied because it is the Christian thing to do. How can torturing people by our government ever be considered morally correct? How can good honest Americans deceive themselves into believing these activities are alright because we win if we do them? How can this be Christian?

We all look at the Salem witchcraft trials and executions as reprehensable behavior but folks it was done under the leadership of people who considered themselves to be extemely Chritian and thought they held the moral high ground. They were doing God's work?

So, you see, I have real difficulties understanding how good Americans who want to do the right thing, the Christian thing, the moral thing can give a pass to all these things becuse...? Why? I've tried to be honest here and hope that someone can explain why they think we have done the right thing in any of these things. What is morally correct?

Don't make the mistake of making equivalences of "moral" and "religious". One has little to do with the other.

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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:02 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Don't make the mistake of making equivalences of "moral" and "religious". One has little to do with the other.


Your remark reminded me of my favorite quote on the topic, from Ghandi:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:04 am 
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BBF wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Don't make the mistake of making equivalences of "moral" and "religious". One has little to do with the other.


Your remark reminded me of my favorite quote on the topic, from Ghandi:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."


I've not heard that Ghandi line before. It is a memorable and pointed one.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:23 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Religion has started more wars than any reason in all of time.



Incorrect and very shallow. Greed and ego start wars. Religion is only used as convinient shroud to disguise people's true motivations.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Haven't heard from you in a while Jeremy. Good to have you back.

Must respectfully disagree with you though. Greed and ego have played a part in some wars. Religion has been a catalyst throughout history though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Haven't heard from you in a while Jeremy. Good to have you back.

Must respectfully disagree with you though. Greed and ego have played a part in some wars. Religion has been a catalyst throughout history though.



Has it really? Or is it just that clever leaders have been able to use religion to mobilize the masses?


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 Post subject: Re: The Moral High Ground
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Good point. I would however refer to the many Crusades, and any other conflict involving the middle east area. Also wars to prevent the godless hoard from the east ie. communism. You make a good point though.


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