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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:25 am 
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Look, I'm not saying that the government option is the way to go, but it's better than the status quo. I'm all for the removal of terratorial (sp?) restraints on health insurance companies, and I'd further like it if individual health care policies were given equal treatment compared to employer-based policies from a tax standpoint. But if that does not get the job done, something must. I'd rather Congress pass a government option bill than pass nothing.


What I am afraid of is that a particular party is more concerned with passing a bill because they have the majority opposed to actually caring about how it will affect the citizens of this great country. The Dems have been promoting this system for many years now and it seems like they now have their best shot to get it through and that's just what they plan on doing. Who cares about what it actually says or what kinds of results it produces. Even if it does produce poor results can just spin those facts away just like the stimulus bill that hasn't really done much to help the economy.

My questions are:
Is the healthcare bill EVERYTHING we need? Or is loaded with a bunch of pork to help line the pockets of constituants on both sides of the isle.
Why can't we fix things instead of blowing the whole thing up? What happens if we blow it all up and then it doesn't work? Then what?

I am tired of both parties at this point. When will we get politicians that will actually represent our interests, let us decide on how to make it through life? This selction has produced the worst Presidency I have ever seen and long after Obama is gone, he will be viewed as the worst President this country ever elected.

1. Our status around the world is that of weakness
2. We are investigating our own intelligence network that thrives on secrecy, so now how do we get information to protect ourselves
3. We've gone into massive amounts of debt, much of which is owed to the Chinese (of all countries). Sorry I forgot, that's all Bush's fault(how long does that excuse get its play)
4. We have basically told all terrorists that if we capture you, you won't have to give us any information and we will put you up at the Waldorf Astoria to make sure you are comfortable.
5. We have a President and a Congress that ensures that race IS an issue(i.e. "Historic First Black President), hiring black militant communists to fill vital roles inside the government. We spend much of our life trying to blend the colors so we see only one, and this President ensures that those race lines are clearly marked.
6. We've elected a chearleader who plays the media markets like an instrument(except for Fox which he avoids like the plague)

I could go on and on, but don't get me wrong Dems and Republicans are BOTH to blame for these current situations that we find ourselves in.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I could go on and on, but don't get me wrong Dems and Republicans are BOTH to blame for these current situations that we find ourselves in.

Agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:58 pm 
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I actually think health insurance should be available for everyone, but I don't like the public option. I am all for helping people who can't help themselves, but I really think too many people take advantage of the current system and would do the same. The bottom line is people need to decide to be healthier and health care will become less expensive. But in our fast food world, that ain't happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:34 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
What I am afraid of is that a particular party is more concerned with passing a bill because they have the majority opposed to actually caring about how it will affect the citizens of this great country. The Dems have been promoting this system for many years now and it seems like they now have their best shot to get it through and that's just what they plan on doing. Who cares about what it actually says or what kinds of results it produces. Even if it does produce poor results can just spin those facts away just like the stimulus bill that hasn't really done much to help the economy.

Perhaps you should actually read the proposed health care bills before proclaiming anything regarding "what it actually says or what kinds of results it produces," let alone what "Dems have been promoting".

Quote:
My questions are:
Is the healthcare bill EVERYTHING we need? Or is loaded with a bunch of pork to help line the pockets of constituants on both sides of the isle.
Why can't we fix things instead of blowing the whole thing up? What happens if we blow it all up and then it doesn't work? Then what?

Perhaps those questions would be answered if you actually read the proposed bills.

Quote:
I am tired of both parties at this point. When will we get politicians that will actually represent our interests, let us decide on how to make it through life? This selction has produced the worst Presidency I have ever seen and long after Obama is gone, he will be viewed as the worst President this country ever elected.

Oh horseshit. What has President Obama done that is so objectionable as to render him "the worst President this country ever elected"?

Quote:
1. Our status around the world is that of weakness
2. We are investigating our own intelligence network that thrives on secrecy, so now how do we get information to protect ourselves
3. We've gone into massive amounts of debt, much of which is owed to the Chinese (of all countries). Sorry I forgot, that's all Bush's fault(how long does that excuse get its play)
4. We have basically told all terrorists that if we capture you, you won't have to give us any information and we will put you up at the Waldorf Astoria to make sure you are comfortable.
5. We have a President and a Congress that ensures that race IS an issue(i.e. "Historic First Black President), hiring black militant communists to fill vital roles inside the government. We spend much of our life trying to blend the colors so we see only one, and this President ensures that those race lines are clearly marked.
6. We've elected a chearleader who plays the media markets like an instrument(except for Fox which he avoids like the plague)

1. No, our status around the world is that of stupidity and self-righteousness.
2. I suppose you would have the CIA go unchecked? Should the CIA be free to run amok across the world at the whim of its director? If you want to see what happens to a sector that is given a lot of power with no one overseeing its business for a long period of time, feel free to take a look at Wall Street. The only problem is that with the CIA, the consequences can be even graver.
3. That "excuse" gets play for as long as the War in Iraq goes on, as we are continually tallying up the expense sheets of that war (which was conveniently left off of the federal budget during the Bush presidency). Going to war in a Middle Eastern country while instituting a $350 billion tax cut at home is one of the most fiscally irresponsible things a President can do, and Bush did it.
4. That is the most nonsensical thing I've heard regarding the treatment of suspected terrorists. To think that a ban on torture would lead to cushy interrogation is a leap of logic only idiots like Glenn Beck would make.
5. Hiring black people to fill government roles is not making race an issue. People who comment on such hirings are the ones that are making race an issue.
6. Wow, you are really reaching in order to criticize the President.

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:23 am 
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1. No, our status around the world is that of stupidity and self-righteousness.
2. I suppose you would have the CIA go unchecked? Should the CIA be free to run amok across the world at the whim of its director? If you want to see what happens to a sector that is given a lot of power with no one overseeing its business for a long period of time, feel free to take a look at Wall Street. The only problem is that with the CIA, the consequences can be even graver.
3. That "excuse" gets play for as long as the War in Iraq goes on, as we are continually tallying up the expense sheets of that war (which was conveniently left off of the federal budget during the Bush presidency). Going to war in a Middle Eastern country while instituting a $350 billion tax cut at home is one of the most fiscally irresponsible things a President can do, and Bush did it.
4. That is the most nonsensical thing I've heard regarding the treatment of suspected terrorists. To think that a ban on torture would lead to cushy interrogation is a leap of logic only idiots like Glenn Beck would make.
5. Hiring black people to fill government roles is not making race an issue. People who comment on such hirings are the ones that are making race an issue.
6. Wow, you are really reaching in order to criticize the President.


1. Yes, NOW it is of stupidity and self-righteousness

2. Within every government there is a necessity for an agency that works secretly and works outside the normal procedures to ensure that any information that is available for the protection of this country, is obtained. To belive that a country does not need this type of agency shows that you are just as naive as the rest that criticize the CIA. If leader of the organization is promoting his own agenda, then you get rid of him, you don't cripple our intelligence officers in the field, and you certainly don't limit their abilities to gather intel. Its obvious that you have never served your country or can even fathom the importance of intelligence to keep our troops safe, much of which is gathered by the CIA. I can't wait till we tell a mother who loses her son or daughter in war that we weren't informed enough because we weren't allowed to torture a prisoner. Screw that! When I joined the military, it was understood that if captured, we could be tortured, so I'm sure that our opposition knows this as well. Its people like you that make me so angry, you think we can sit over here in America and mind our own business and be nice to everyone. Dude half the world hates us, and its not because of Bush, Clinton, Reagan, or even Carter. They hate our freedoms, our ideals, our way of life and the more this new administration changes that and takes away our rights, the more that the half of the world that hates us, wins. Wilton, your an extremely smart individual, much more schooled and intelligent than I, that is what boggles my mind, that you just don't get it. The world is a terrible place, there will never be peace, the only peace is when we are holding down tyranny with our fist.

3. The "war" excuse is a talking point(to which you always accuse me of using in arguments), a CNN, leftist, talking point. Do you remember in your school books what was the actual reason for getting out of depression? It was WWII, that is what helped industry and put people to work again. Sure the war in Iraq costs money, but its also keeping much of America employed. It sounds sad to say but if we don't go to war or concentrate on protecting ourselves as a nation, what would you need all the defense contractors for? Furthermore, if the "war" was costing us so much and putting us in debt, then why didn't Obama stop it upon election? Like he said while running? Because he knows that we cannot leave that region unattended. The stimulus bill was a load of crap to help "pay off" all of the organizations that helped him get elected. I read some of the plan... what a load of s***.

4. Torture in the sense that we have done it as a nation is not even close to as bad as what terrorists have done. It is an essential part of gaining intel to protect our troops and our citizens, if these guys didn't want to be tortured, they should have stayed our of the terror business. Secondly, terrorists are not afforded rights under the Geneva convention because they do not claim to be of any nation.

5. Don't you try to lay me out as the racist. I SAID THAT the President hired a MILITANT black leader to a high position in the government. A MILITANT black man who blames "whitey" for holding them down. He can go screw himself.

6. The President makes it very easy. I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually felt safer under Clinton... thats a huge statement for me.

Finally, did YOU read all 1000 pages of garbage in the healthcare plan? So don't use that as an argument point if you haven't read it either. That just means that you don't really know what you believe either.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:50 pm 
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Pirtaefan-- you seem to have a lot of hate built up inside you that you don't mind sharing. Why so angry?

The point you make about torture is simply unamerican. You can try to hide behind the patriotic flag but our principles don't change. In torturing people we lose ourselves.

What do we gain? If I were being tortured, I would tell you what I thought you wanted to hear so that the pain would stop. Wouldn't matter if it were true or not. Never in our history have we accepted torture as a legitimate technique of information gathering. No, we Americans were and are above the inhuman treatment of others. It has nothing to do with service to our country, but more to living by our standards which as you properly suggest are the envy of the world. So, you want to give that up to save what? You just can't eat your cake and have it too.

Don't you realize that the (civilian) Dick Chenney way has been determined by most Americans as the wrong way. Ask General Colin Powell or any other General in our military today.

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:04 pm 
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BBF wrote:
the health care litigation issue. Gotta stop for now. :evil: :evil: :evil:


Having worked on the defense side of doctors and hospitals, I find myself somewhat amused at "lines of crap" that are being fed to us by medical malpractice insurance companies. They are great at the blame game. Look at the stats: Lawsuits actually filed/numbers are down; Verdict amounts/down; Settlement amounts/down; Medical Malpractice Premiums/Way Up. Stock value of medical malpractice carriers/way up.

Hmmmmmm. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Also . . . look at who owns or runs most of the medical malpractice insurance businesses. You might be surprised and it might make you question the credibility of their statements.

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:12 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Also . . . look at who owns or runs most of the medical malpractice insurance businesses. You might be surprised and it might make you question the credibility of their statements.


Lawyers?

:)


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:19 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
BBF wrote:
the health care litigation issue. Gotta stop for now. :evil: :evil: :evil:


Having worked on the defense side of doctors and hospitals, I find myself somewhat amused at "lines of crap" that are being fed to us by medical malpractice insurance companies. They are great at the blame game. Look at the stats: Lawsuits actually filed/numbers are down; Verdict amounts/down; Settlement amounts/down; Medical Malpractice Premiums/Way Up. Stock value of medical malpractice carriers/way up.

Hmmmmmm. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Also . . . look at who owns or runs most of the medical malpractice insurance businesses. You might be surprised and it might make you question the credibility of their statements.


I'd like to hear you speculate on the reasons for the numbers being down, if you would. Its not a trap, just asking. Because while the verdicts may be down, I can tell you the number of unnecessary tests driven by fear of lawsuits is going strong. So while insurance premiums are a burden (and I tend to agree that the Medmal insurance companies are a large part of the problem), the bigger problems are doctors over-treating patients to avoid lawsuits.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:33 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
1. Yes, NOW it is of stupidity and self-righteousness

2. Within every government there is a necessity for an agency that works secretly and works outside the normal procedures to ensure that any information that is available for the protection of this country, is obtained. To belive that a country does not need this type of agency shows that you are just as naive as the rest that criticize the CIA. If leader of the organization is promoting his own agenda, then you get rid of him, you don't cripple our intelligence officers in the field, and you certainly don't limit their abilities to gather intel. Its obvious that you have never served your country or can even fathom the importance of intelligence to keep our troops safe, much of which is gathered by the CIA. I can't wait till we tell a mother who loses her son or daughter in war that we weren't informed enough because we weren't allowed to torture a prisoner. Screw that! When I joined the military, it was understood that if captured, we could be tortured, so I'm sure that our opposition knows this as well. Its people like you that make me so angry, you think we can sit over here in America and mind our own business and be nice to everyone. Dude half the world hates us, and its not because of Bush, Clinton, Reagan, or even Carter. They hate our freedoms, our ideals, our way of life and the more this new administration changes that and takes away our rights, the more that the half of the world that hates us, wins. Wilton, your an extremely smart individual, much more schooled and intelligent than I, that is what boggles my mind, that you just don't get it. The world is a terrible place, there will never be peace, the only peace is when we are holding down tyranny with our fist.

3. The "war" excuse is a talking point(to which you always accuse me of using in arguments), a CNN, leftist, talking point. Do you remember in your school books what was the actual reason for getting out of depression? It was WWII, that is what helped industry and put people to work again. Sure the war in Iraq costs money, but its also keeping much of America employed. It sounds sad to say but if we don't go to war or concentrate on protecting ourselves as a nation, what would you need all the defense contractors for? Furthermore, if the "war" was costing us so much and putting us in debt, then why didn't Obama stop it upon election? Like he said while running? Because he knows that we cannot leave that region unattended. The stimulus bill was a load of crap to help "pay off" all of the organizations that helped him get elected. I read some of the plan... what a load of s***.

4. Torture in the sense that we have done it as a nation is not even close to as bad as what terrorists have done. It is an essential part of gaining intel to protect our troops and our citizens, if these guys didn't want to be tortured, they should have stayed our of the terror business. Secondly, terrorists are not afforded rights under the Geneva convention because they do not claim to be of any nation.

5. Don't you try to lay me out as the racist. I SAID THAT the President hired a MILITANT black leader to a high position in the government. A MILITANT black man who blames "whitey" for holding them down. He can go screw himself.

6. The President makes it very easy. I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually felt safer under Clinton... thats a huge statement for me.


1. And you can thank your good buddy George W. Bush for that.

2. Way to swing at a straw man. I never said that we did not need the CIA; what I'm saying is that the CIA should be held accountable for its actions. When you stop making shit up is when we can have a reasoned discussion about this.

As for the torture part, I concur with AZBF: torture is unethical, ineffective, and overall un-American. Just because our enemies may torture does not mean that we should stoop to their level. Otherwise you turn your back on all that you deem to be great about the U.S.A. just so that you can cause another great pain. But more to the point: the fact that torture is no longer an option does not eviscerate our ability to gather intelligence. Just because torture is the only way you know how to extract information from someone does not mean that a highly-skilled spy or CIA agent does not know of more effective ways to do so.

Oh, and by the way, stop using your military background as a way of claiming that you are better than everyone who has not served. It's conceited.

3. Justifying the War in Iraq as a way of employing people in the U.S. is quite possibly one of the more vile things I've ever heard. I'm sure the families of all the soldiers who died in Iraq will take great solace in the idea that Bush started a war of choice that risked the lives of their children so that defense contractors could get paid.

I'm well aware of how WWII brought the U.S. out of the Great Depression. However, that was a war of necessity. Countries were asking the U.S. to get involved and help out countries that were being oppressed by Hitler, and then the Japanese forced Roosevelt's hand by bombing Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. The War in Iraq is a far, FAR different situation: we were never attacked by Iraq, no one asked us to enter Iraq, and yet we went anyway. Oh, and last I checked, we were not in a horrible depression in 2003. Trying to compare the War in Iraq to WWII shows a lack of historical knowledge on your part.

I'll let you in on a little secret: the federal government makes most of the money through income taxes, and those taxes are used to fund things like a U.S. military and their ventures into the theater of war. But when the President signs a $350 billion tax cut into law, that limits the amount of money he can use to pay for such things, thereby forcing him to borrow even more money from foreign countries (read: China) to fund his whimsical war.

"If we don't go to war or concentrate on protecting ourselves as a nation, what would you need all the defense contractors for?" Indeed, what would we need them for? Why pay them at all? Why not stop contracting the Lockheed Martins of the world to make so many things that only soldiers can use, and instead drive them to create or invent things that civilians can use? Why is it a good idea for the government to start a war with another country just to justify all the money it pays to defense contractors?

4. Torture has never been an essential part of intelligence gathering. On the contrary, it has been deemed by many in the field of intelligence as being ineffective (i.e., the one being tortured will say anything to make the pain stop) and more dangerous than beneficial (i.e., it endangers our troops by encouraging reciprocity). This has nothing to do with the legal rights of terrorists, whether under the Geneva Convention or otherwise. This is merely pointing out that there are more effective ways to extract information from someone than torture. The notion that torture is an effective way of gathering intelligence is a myth, plain and simple.

And please, don't give me the nonsense of "They do it; so should we." You're basically saying that we should become just like terrorists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we fighting them because we disagree with them? Why does it make sense to emulate the people we despise?

5. The fact of the matter is that you are still focusing on the fact that the man is black. Otherwise you would just call him "a MILITANT leader" or "a MILITANT man," or something of that nature. Clearly the fact that said person is black resonates with you; if Obama had appointed a white civil rights activist to a similar position, I wonder if you would have the same feelings.

Clearly you are talking about Van Jones, but I have yet to see anything regarding him "blaming whitey" for anything while he held office or any time near then.

Piratefan13 wrote:
Finally, did YOU read all 1000 pages of garbage in the healthcare plan? So don't use that as an argument point if you haven't read it either. That just means that you don't really know what you believe either.

You're right: I haven't read any of the health care bills. But then, I'm not the one using hyperbole to proclaim what he thinks is probably in the bill. Instead of making uneducated guesses as to what is in the health care bill, why don't you read it and learn about what is actually being proposed? It would just seem to me that if you're so damn afraid of what the Dems may be proposing, then perhaps you would like to take the time to learn what they are actually proposing.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:06 am 
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1. You blame Bush, I blame Obama

2. I call it torture but America's version of torture and the terrorists version are two different things. Waterboarding is not "unethical."

Yes, there can be other ways of getting information from a detainee, but in the case of a captured terrorist who bases his whole ideology on dying to kill "infidels," getting him to "roll" on his partners by offering concessions seems highly unlikely.

3. Now your putting words in my mouth, I would never conclude that the proper way to get out of a recession is to start a war. It just so happens that it provides an increase in economy for a great number of Americans.

And again, how can you say that the war in Iraq is unneccesary? I find 3 good reasons for the war.
A. A ruthless tyrant is dead and gone
B. A people were freed from his tyranny, lives were saved.
C. Iraq supported terrorism and shortly after the 9/11 attacks, Pres. Bush stated that ANY nation that supported terrorism would be considered an enemy. Everyone in the country bought into that at the time. I guess it was faux patriotism.

4. same as earlier...

5. Now again you are trying to paint me into this box that I'm a racist. The fact that the person is black and blames white people for "their peoples'" suffering I DO have a problem with. Contrary to what you may believe about me, if a white person would stand and say the same sorts of things, I would be just as upset. There isn't any heresay, I saw the man speak and I heard him say "whitey" did this and because of "whitey" this happened. If you don't see that as a problem, then I wonder if all this crap about you believing we should be a better nation than the rest is just a load of BS.
So your stipulation is that he didn't do it in office(thankfully we didn't give him much chance), well I know from my personal life that what I believe(core values) is the same thing I believed in my teens, my 20's and now into my 30's. So we are to believe that Mr. Van Jones would just all-of-a-sudden change his beliefs in communism, racism, and ludicrous beliefs that Bush was behind 9/11. If you believe that, then I have a bridge over in San Fran to sell you. Oh, never mind, I get it, Obama the messiah said he was legit, so whe are supposed to take his word for it(same argument that anti-Bush protestors have about Bush).

As far as the Healthcare bill goes, you didn't read any of it, I didn't read any of it, so how can we argue about it? Naturally, you hear the highlightes of the bill from over at CNN or MSNBC and I hear the lowlights over at Fox. So who is right? So when you read it, I'll read it, otherwise we are going to argue this point basd on what we are hearing from our propective sides.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:19 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Pirtaefan-- you seem to have a lot of hate built up inside you that you don't mind sharing. Why so angry?

The point you make about torture is simply unamerican. You can try to hide behind the patriotic flag but our principles don't change. In torturing people we lose ourselves.

What do we gain? If I were being tortured, I would tell you what I thought you wanted to hear so that the pain would stop. Wouldn't matter if it were true or not. Never in our history have we accepted torture as a legitimate technique of information gathering. No, we Americans were and are above the inhuman treatment of others. It has nothing to do with service to our country, but more to living by our standards which as you properly suggest are the envy of the world. So, you want to give that up to save what? You just can't eat your cake and have it too.

Don't you realize that the (civilian) Dick Chenney way has been determined by most Americans as the wrong way. Ask General Colin Powell or any other General in our military today.


Why so angry? C'mon Sub, you have to ask me that? Has everyone forgotten 9/11? I certainly haven't, I also haven't forgotten about the USS Cole(where I knew someone who died), I haven't forgot about the people cheering in the streets of Iran and North Korea after the Towers crashed down. I haven't forgot the Police and Fireman sitting helpless on the ground knowing that many of their friends had died trying to do their job. I remember the gaping hole in the Pentagon, I walk through the memorial over there reading the names of people who died for their country. I remember President Bush telling the American people that we weren't going to rest until every terrorist responsible was found and put to trial, and every nation that harbored terrorists would also pay the price. I'm not resting because the job is far from done. 3000 innocent people died that day, innocent, other than those at the Pentagon, how many of those were combatants? How many were trained soldiers? Your right I have anger in my heart, maybe you should to, I have anger for cowardly men who would target a civilian to promote his religeous BS. I am also sure that you know that the war didn't start after 9/11, it wasn't started by George Bush I or II, this war has been raging for centuries and will continue till the end of time. Peace between nations and different peoples is a fantasy, many people can't even have peace within a family, and they might even love each other.


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