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 Post subject: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:29 pm 
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All right, you've all been warned . . . the link is a commentary about a political issue but I think that it has parallel relevance to message boards, including this one. And it is particularly relevant in light of the debate on what NH may or may not have said to Perry Hill about what would occur in the future.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/09/03/ ... index.html

This article struck a nerve with me because I have been preaching it for a long time. I couldn't agree with it more.

My apologies for the soap box. On with your evenings . . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:58 pm 
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Good article. Still though, as a person who leans toward the left politically I find it difficult to listen to the other side if you consider the other side to be Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and Fox News. Not to say that the right wing of the country is wrong. Just that their choice of commentators is attrocious. I'm sure if I were a republican, I'd hate Olberman, Moore, and Maddow.
I guess the challenge for both sides is to tune out all of the commentators and pundents. Actually listen to each other for a change.
Still, if listening to each other means hearing how the President is a racist and not an American, count me out.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:26 am 
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JimY wrote:
Still, if listening to each other means hearing how the President is a racist and not an American, count me out.

It appears that the point of the article went right over your head.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:28 am 
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I got the point. It's just that, so much of the opposing sides views are wrapped up in these views that it's tough to even try to listen.
Sorry, but it's true.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:35 am 
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JimY wrote:
I got the point.

No, you did not. The point of the article was that demagoguery is not discussion. You engage in demagoguery when you disparage opposing views by taking extreme examples of such views to make your point.

This method labels conservatives as Hitler, and liberals as Stalin. In other words, the very tactic that the article decries.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:52 am 
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I seriously understand. But I have friends, and family who differ with me politically and it is usually about these extreme issues.
Now if they wanted to discuss health care, abortion, gay marriage, or any other issue I'd be fine with it. But anymore at work, and with family it's usually the silly things. Sometimes I shouldn't get sucked in to these arguments but it's easy to let your guard down.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:22 am 
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In theory, I agree with the article---there is nothing wrong with compromise, in fact, it is usually the best possible solution for all.

However, if I am trying to be led to believe that changing your mind constantly is a good thing... nah. That's ridiculous.

'Flip Flopping' doesn't work when you do it constantly.

Ask the Pirates of the last 17 years. Some years they'd try to rebuild through the draft and minors, next they'd go for free agents and then back and forth until it led to 16, soon to be 17 years of losing.

At the end of the day, in order to succeed, one has to have a clear point of view and firm stance and stick to it.

That's why baseball has lineup cards and pitching rotations. And why Ichiro patrols the outfield and not infield. Or why Cal Ripken played his entire career at SS and Third. Or why Edgar Martinez was strictly a DH.

Structure, organization and stability are the fundamentals of pretty much anything. (Which is why, there could never be any political group ever claiming to be called the 'anarchy party' :lol: )

And P.S.

The very idea of 'being able to change your mind' is, in itself, a firm stance that is [virtually] 'unchangable'. So it negates the very point (argument) the article is trying to make.

Good day all and GO BUCS!

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:32 am 
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I am routinely called a commie by a fellow co worker despite the fact that I am registered indie. This same colleague commented that "it was about time Ted Kennedy died. I am having a party on Sat. during his funeral." I must say that I find it hard to fathom that even the farthest leftist would wish death on a member of the opposition. We as a district are showing the Obama speech he is giving Tuesday to encourage education and hard work. Our superintendent has received over 400 emails in opposition to this including many threatening violent action and nut case threats. Amazing....and sad. Paranioa at it's worst.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:07 pm 
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Aw, yes.. free market paradise is just around the corner. No public medical care, no public education, no consumer protections, no regulations, lower life expectancy.

Friends, we are about the see the dark side of this economic system. The goal of capitalism is Indonesia. That's our future. Our new currency should read: WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:21 pm 
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No offense, but why isn't this thread in the Water Cooler section? I know that the Bucs aren't exactly fun to talk about, but let's keep this forum somewhat organized. Good discussion, no doubt, but let's stick to the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:31 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I am routinely called a commie by a fellow co worker despite the fact that I am registered indie. This same colleague commented that "it was about time Ted Kennedy died. I am having a party on Sat. during his funeral." I must say that I find it hard to fathom that even the farthest leftist would wish death on a member of the opposition. We as a district are showing the Obama speech he is giving Tuesday to encourage education and hard work. Our superintendent has received over 400 emails in opposition to this including many threatening violent action and nut case threats. Amazing....and sad. Paranioa at it's worst.


The whole school address kerfuffle cracks me up. Here is an article about other times that presidents have addressed the nation's school children. It reveals that Democrats protested Bush 41's address calling it, among other things, the "arrogance of power" (Patricia Schroeder) and that Newt Gingrich defended the president's right to speak to the nation's children. So, as is usually the case, hypocrisy exists in almost equal measure on both sides of the aisle.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:11 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I am routinely called a commie by a fellow co worker despite the fact that I am registered indie. This same colleague commented that "it was about time Ted Kennedy died. I am having a party on Sat. during his funeral." I must say that I find it hard to fathom that even the farthest leftist would wish death on a member of the opposition. We as a district are showing the Obama speech he is giving Tuesday to encourage education and hard work. Our superintendent has received over 400 emails in opposition to this including many threatening violent action and nut case threats. Amazing....and sad. Paranioa at it's worst.



First, I say this needs to be moved. But, anyways. This move by the POTUS has to be viewed in two parts. First part - POTUS tells kids to work hard, get ahead, believe in yourself... good stuff and done by other POTUS' since ... for ever.

Second part, and now acknowledged by the Admin as wrong, very wrong... and the point that the protesters email about.. is the follow up letters request saying "what can I do for the POTUS". This, combined with the "Daily Quote from Obama" that was proposed gets awful close to the "Dear Leader" status. Further, when you add in the commercials that this POTUS has run in the past with celebs promising to "Server Obama" or "serve the POTUS" (as opposed to POTUS working for us) creates a very relevant fear in many folks. As an indie AZ, I'm surprised this approach doesn't bother you.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:23 pm 
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Just to let you know, the lesson plan for the written part that the student's will do was changed due to the "protest". It is now for the students to write what they can do for themselves to improve themselves through their education. I personally have no problem with any president speaking to the students in our schools. Any encouragement and support is welcomed. Knee jerk responses that are politically motivated are absurd no matter where they originate.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:36 pm 
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But, you still fail to address the second point. You address the first, which I point out is just fine. Yet, you have no problem with the second? You have no problem with the follow up that was proposed? You would not protest that portion of the program?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:41 pm 
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I will check, but I believe that is no longer part of the deaI. I will get back to you on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:39 pm 
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You are correct. It has been removed hence my reference the administration realizing how wrong that part was.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:35 pm 
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This thread certainly didn't go where I expected it to go.

So, to some degree, I feel compelled to explain why I posted it in the Baseball Section.

Some (if not most) of the heated dialogue this year was largely become a "black and white" name calling contest. If you write something positive about a move, you are labelled a "Nutting Apologist." If you question a particular trade, then you are labelled "Short Sighted and Ignorant."

What has been lost in today's fast-paced internet/instant message/blog dominated world is, in large part, the time to think, to ponder, to weigh matters and to reach conclusions. I posted it not as a political commentary with anti-Fox News, anti-MSNBC, anti-Hannity or anti-Olberman agenda. I posted it because it applies to much of the discussion on this Board about what the Pirates are doing or not doing.

There is nothing wrong with finding shades of grey. Don't like the sacrifice bunt? Fine. But, JR is not a "freaking idiot" because he called for one in a particular situation. Everything is taken to such an extreme. Very few seem to be interested in finding reason and would rather leap to extreme conclusions.

You like the Jack Wilson trade? Good. Doesn't make you an "Apologist." Doesn't mean that you are "worshipping Nutting." It is that kind of rhetoric that, frankly, has led to my diminished involvement on this Board. I think that it is Bertie (where have you gone?) whose quote makes reference to what conversation should be like.

Does it apply to today's political arena? Absolutely. Makes me sick to my stomach. The lengths to which some go to profit over whipping people into a frenzy over NOTHING is nauseating and, in my opinion, has as much to do with this country's inability to get anything done as anything else.

But it applies to the Baseball Board as well. I just wish (like the author of the article) that the Board could get back to debating issues and focus more on the arguments and leaving the volatile rhetoric out of it. And, before anyone jumps on me about the pot calling the kettle black, I readily admit that I've been sucked in and have participated as well. However, I must write that I have very deliberately backed away from responding or reading certain posters. I have deliberately tempered comments even when I feel like I could be caustic.

For example, Sub and my recent disagreement over whether Bixler's turn around third base was reasonable or lackadaisical was a good debate. He and I see things very differently. However, neither ended up referring to one another as an idiot or a moron. It was good "fun." The kind of debate that, if we were in a bar, I'd say "Sub . . . you're wrong. What are you drinking? Beer is on me." He'd say "Thanks. Appreciate it. And, by the way, you're wrong." We'd laugh and move on.

For me, that is more of what I am looking for here. So, once again, I'm off my soap box. And, FWIW, I still think that it was relevant to the Baseball Section. :) (Far be it for a lawyer to concede anything!)

_________________
Reflexively, obsessively and tastelessly submitted,
No. 9
Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:51 pm 
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ZM. I would observe that at least the current admin. see's it's mistake and takes action to correct it. I am afraid that I cannot imagine the previous gentlemen and lady doing the same. They did admit that there really weren't WMD's but how long did that take?


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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:03 pm 
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Oh, c'mon, you simply cannot keep playing the dubya card.

He's gone. Done. Pitueeee.

Hold the admin to the admin's actions. They are their own.

And, quite frankly, they do NOT change their venue without all those angry protesters you protested.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Soapbox Time
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:09 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Oh, c'mon, you simply cannot keep playing the dubya card.

He's gone. Done. Pitueeee.

Hold the admin to the admin's actions. They are their own.

And, quite frankly, they do NOT change their venue without all those angry protesters you protested.

ZM

Wait, so it's okay to hold Obama's feet to the fire, but the minute someone suggests that Bush was never as forthcoming as Obama, you dismiss it because it's "playing the dubya card"? That sounds like a double standard, ZM.

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