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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:36 am 
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I'm always amazed at the number of people who view coarseness, vulgarity and insults as some kind of "truth". As if "truth" is defined by taking potshots as the successful to create one's own success.

The fall of such "truth-sayers" is almost always ugly, by my observation.

But, it is just my observation. Is there a sabremetric for that kind of thing Econo???? 8-)

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:39 am 
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Struck a nerve eh? LOL
I never mentioned Howard Stern did I?
I teach school. You don't have to tell me about the decline of social mores and respect in the last 30 years. I have been cusses at (lost count) and assaulted 4 times. This just in the past 3 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:54 am 
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Freedom of speech is a canard.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:56 am 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
I teach school. You don't have to tell me about the decline of social mores and respect in the last 30 years. I have been cusses at (lost count) and assaulted 4 times. This just in the past 3 years.


You have my respect AZ. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:01 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Freedom of speech is a canard.


Really? Let me know when the FBI shows up at Madden's door and arrests him then.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:13 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Freedom of speech is a canard.


Really? Let me know when the FBI shows up at Madden's door and arrests him then.

ZM


So being arrested is the only form of punishment for those who partake in "freedom of speech"?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:31 pm 
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I think you must be arguing for the sake arguing here.

This one is easy. Freedom of speech is political speech only. It does not apply to a private company with employees under contractual terms fo employment.

No private entity should have to put up with anything below their standards. That is the purpose of a contract.

Madden violated his contract. He was employed at the leasure of Bristol. They can fire without cause, and it won't affect freedom of speech one iota.

It may only make for more sane radio.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:31 pm 
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I will admit, I like Senator Kennedy as much as a pimple on my rear-end, but there are things that should remain unsaid. So Madden doesn't like Kennedy either, but comments such as those don't generally hurt the target, they hurt the loved ones around the target. Just classless, thoughtless, and self serving.

"Freedom of speech" doesn't protect you from being a jaggoff and it doesn't protect you from losing your job, I don't think I read that anywhere in our constitution. The employer should have the right to dump an employee if they do not feel as though the employee is representing their best interests.

Being that ESPN is a "New England" based company, and Kennedy is a representative of that area, they had no choice but to fire him.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:37 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Struck a nerve eh? LOL
I never mentioned Howard Stern did I?
I teach school. You don't have to tell me about the decline of social mores and respect in the last 30 years. I have been cusses at (lost count) and assaulted 4 times. This just in the past 3 years.


No you did not mention the King of all media but did mention that Maddens ratings were maybe the climate and attitude of the town. Stern had the highest radio ratings in the country. Get it?

Well my wife teaches elementary. I have coached Hockey & Soccer from JV to Elementay ages. I also help teach Sunday School grades. 7-12 I've been lucky because I dont have to report to a school board...just the Parents and the board running the club. If a kid assaults another kid or coach, they are suspended for a game or the entire season depending on the severity of the situation. But I see what goes on in the schools. I had a cousin who quit because of what you are having to put up with. The under 25 crowd has a total lack of respect for others. Sad part is that my generation raised the lack of respect crowd.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:51 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I will admit, I like Senator Kennedy as much as a pimple on my rear-end, but there are things that should remain unsaid. So Madden doesn't like Kennedy either, but comments such as those don't generally hurt the target, they hurt the loved ones around the target. Just classless, thoughtless, and self serving.

"Freedom of speech" doesn't protect you from being a jaggoff and it doesn't protect you from losing your job, I don't think I read that anywhere in our constitution. The employer should have the right to dump an employee if they do not feel as though the employee is representing their best interests.

Being that ESPN is a "New England" based company, and Kennedy is a representative of that area, they had no choice but to fire him.

If Madden were fired for those comments, then ESPN could be sued by Madden. What he said was highly offensive, even if said in the context of a joke. However, what he said was not legally obscene, thus it is protected by the 1st Amendment. ESPN can surely fire him, but Madden would have the Bill of Rights on his side in a lawsuit.

While ESPN owns the station, the station does not own the airwaves. The people, i.e. the citizens of the USA own the airwaves. To be found legally obscene, and thus making Madden completely in the wrong, the current definition of legally obscene is as follows:

The Supreme Court must find the comments Worthless "utterly without redeeming social importance" or sexually lewd. Obviously the comments weren't sexually lewd, but it could be argued they were worthless. However, the comments were made in a joking fashion, and even as so would still possibly have a redeeming social importance.

Jay Leno, Letterman take shots all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:05 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I think you must be arguing for the sake arguing here.


Pretty much.

ZelieMike wrote:
This one is easy. Freedom of speech is political speech only. It does not apply to a private company with employees under contractual terms fo employment.


True, but as far as I know that only applies to the federal government. There are numerous cases at the state level which have been overturned at the federal one. Many involving teachers and whether or not their speech is covered under "contractual" terms or private citizen ones. I find this to be an incredibly slippery slope.

Freedom: the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints

Speech: the act of delivering a formal spoken communication to an audience

These two definitions, when viewed as a whole, do not exist, at least in the purest sense. I think many people incorrectly view it this way however. That's really the point of my initial post.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:48 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Lets see...the guy has great ratings...highest for sports talk in Pgh. For those of you who "hate" him or think they should " fire" him, who would replace him that brings in the revenue? Howard Stern had similar issues. If you dont like him, dont listen.
But thats just it.....people who hate him..still listen. Go figure.

No, I most certainly do NOT listen to him, and I haven't done so since shortly after he took to the airwaves. So go figure.

I don't give a damn who replaces him. I don't give a damn if they lose enough revenue to go out of business entirely. That station lost me forever because it took them so long to figure out what was obvious to me in his first week on the air. Or, as is more likely, they figured it out right away, but chose to pursue the vulgar jackass audience and whatever advertising dollars it would bring. Either way, it was their choice, just as firing him was their choice. I congratulate them for making the right decision. Too bad they waited too long to make it.

By the way, even in his own wet dreams, Madden is no Howard Stern.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:52 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Ralphie wrote:
Madden is trashy but entertaining, but Kennedy is a sacred cow that he should have known not to mess with.

It's kind of interesting that Smizik got Madden fired.


A media soap opera. Madden ripped Smizik all the time. I'm sure Smizik was just waiting for the chance to do what he did. It was not untill after Smizik's media article about how the station manager seemed to tolerate what Madden said that any action was taken

Madden may be out in Pgh. 104.7, 105.9, 102.5 and 970AM are all Clear Channel owned. The Steelers have a big influence and only if Madden was toned down(doubt he'd do that)would they offer him a spot. KDKA dumped sports talk except for weekends. Unless a non clearchannel station wants to add a shock jock sports talk show as part of their programming, Madden may be history in Pgh.

So let him go back to wrestling. It's where he really belongs, anyhow.

Oh, I forgot, he got fired from that gig, too. Too vulgar for wrestling. So vulgar that he was fired in spite of high ratings. Should make for a nice resume.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:57 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Maybe this guy IS the climate and attitude of the town. His ratings would indicate that.


And Howard Stern the climate and attitude of the country?
There has been a lack of respect climate in general for the last 15-20 years. The line of free speech seems to keep being lowered and lowered. I'm not sure where the line needs to be. All I know is when a kid pops off, you better think twice about what you say or do. I've seen too many cases where a kid can be a be a complete jerk and if you say or do something as an adult, you're the one in trouble.

The line of free speech? This has nothing to do with free speech. It is a corporation making a decision from which it hopes to benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:00 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Freedom of speech is a canard.

No it isn't. It simply does not apply in this case. He was fired by a private corporation, not jailed by the government.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:05 pm 
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I find it EXTREMELY hypocritical that ESPN fired Madden for his comments. It wasn't too long ago that ESPN's own Dana Jacobson said, "F*** Touchdown Jesus and F*** Notre Dame" at the Mike & Mike roast. She got suspended but not fired, and I was fine with that punishment.

I've lived in Pittsburgh for almost a year now, and I really enjoyed listening to Madden. I am not a Steeler or Penguin fan, but I loved the fact that Madden did not drop to his knees and worship all things Hines Ward/Big Ben like the majority of the community does.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:07 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
I will admit, I like Senator Kennedy as much as a pimple on my rear-end, but there are things that should remain unsaid. So Madden doesn't like Kennedy either, but comments such as those don't generally hurt the target, they hurt the loved ones around the target. Just classless, thoughtless, and self serving.

"Freedom of speech" doesn't protect you from being a jaggoff and it doesn't protect you from losing your job, I don't think I read that anywhere in our constitution. The employer should have the right to dump an employee if they do not feel as though the employee is representing their best interests.

Being that ESPN is a "New England" based company, and Kennedy is a representative of that area, they had no choice but to fire him.

If Madden were fired for those comments, then ESPN could be sued by Madden. What he said was highly offensive, even if said in the context of a joke. However, what he said was not legally obscene, thus it is protected by the 1st Amendment. ESPN can surely fire him, but Madden would have the Bill of Rights on his side in a lawsuit.


I would suggest that you leave the law to the lawyers, because you're making yourself look awful foolish here. The Bill of Rights protects citizens from the government. It has nothing to do with contracts between individuals and their employers.

Quote:
While ESPN owns the station, the station does not own the airwaves. The people, i.e. the citizens of the USA own the airwaves. To be found legally obscene, and thus making Madden completely in the wrong, the current definition of legally obscene is as follows:

The Supreme Court must find the comments Worthless "utterly without redeeming social importance" or sexually lewd. Obviously the comments weren't sexually lewd, but it could be argued they were worthless. However, the comments were made in a joking fashion, and even as so would still possibly have a redeeming social importance.

Jay Leno, Letterman take shots all the time.

You might have a point if the FCC had ordered Madden off the air. That isn't what happened. He was fired by his employer.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:56 pm 
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All those saying that "freedom of speech" has nothing to do with this are correct. The 1st Amendment protects individuals from being punished by the government for the things they say. It does not protect employees of private companies from getting fired by their employers based upon the things they say. The FCC did not push ESPN to fire Madden, and ESPN is not a government entity. This was a private company deciding that it did not want someone who says distasteful things about Massachussetts senators to represent the company in the Pittsburgh locale. It's no different from a sales company firing a sales agent for wearing inappropriate clothing (and by inappropriate, I mean jeans and a T-shirt), even though that clothing can be seen as a form of expression protected under the 1st Amendment.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:56 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Freedom of speech is a canard.

No it isn't. It simply does not apply in this case. He was fired by a private corporation, not jailed by the government.



Why do you assume my comment was directed at the government and the 1st Amendment? Maybe, just maybe it was directed at those who think "freedom of speech" is a free pass to say whatever they want?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden is suspended...
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:08 am 
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Argentum wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Freedom of speech is a canard.

No it isn't. It simply does not apply in this case. He was fired by a private corporation, not jailed by the government.



Why do you assume my comment was directed at the government and the 1st Amendment? Maybe, just maybe it was directed at those who think "freedom of speech" is a free pass to say whatever they want?

If so, then we agree.

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