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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:48 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
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Most economists agree that the most effective way to stimulate the economy is to spend money and that the most effective tax cuts are those that go to people who will spend money right away.


Most economists? Which ones? Liberal Democrat economists. Your numbers are a bit skewed, its actually a little more closer to 50/50 on the economists... not "most." The only "most" part is the ones that CNN interviews.

Really? Are my numbers skewed? Can you show me without making unintelligent jabs at whoever you deem to be a liberal democrat?

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People that will spend money right away? Who is that? The people that are poor, or the people who don't pay taxes? And if they are to take a poll of this class of folks, what would the percentage of purchases be of alcohol,cigarettes, and drugs? Wow, our beer distributors will be able to keep their employees, and the tobacco companies are going to be set.

Right, because you never buy alcohol, cigarettes or drugs. :roll: Perhaps you should talk to your doctor before you make any claims regarding this.

People who are poor are people who don't pay income taxes, which means that they aren't getting any tax cuts. You can't cut the taxes for someone who has no tax liability. If you're afraid that money is going to go to people who don't pay taxes but should, then you clearly don't know the IRS very well.

I suggest you actually look at the Making Work Pay tax credit before spouting off about who it does and does not benefit.

Quote:
Wouldn't you think giving money to the middle to upper class would help stimulate the economy more and faster, since these are the classes that tend to spread out their spending?

No, because those people are already making enough money without getting a handout from the federal government. People like me already have well-paying jobs (or, in my case, will in September), and any extra money that we get will only go into a bank that's going to be super shy about lending it out. Giving upper-middle-class citizens extra money will only cause them to save it, not spend it. Stimulus money does not stimulate anything if it does not enter the stream of commerce.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:07 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
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Upper-income taxpayers (like me) are more likely to save extra money for a rainy day. Money sitting in banks that have already become super-lending-shy doesn't stimulate the economy, and money salted away in offshore tax havens or other offshore investments doesn't stimulate the economy. Trickle-down does not trickle down in a recession.


Talk about me sticking to a party line approach... This would hold maybe a little water if much of the stimulus bill wasn't going to liberal business and agencies that contributed to the Obama for god... oh I'm sorry, President campaign.

Who do you think keeps people employed? Who do you think hires more people? Not the lower-class out-of-work deadbeat! Its the business owner. So you need to go and review your trickle down theory notes and come back with a more realistic answer. If you give the businesses more money to work with, then employees can be retained and more could possibly be hired.

If businesses are getting more money for no other reason than because the federal government says so, then no, they are not going to retain or hire more employees because they do not see those employees as a direct cause of their windfall. If a business owner gets a big chunk of money that is not directly related to the fruits of his employees' labor, why would that cause him to hire more people? The senior partner at my firm will pay me next year because I am valuable to him: I will work my ass off and likely bill over 2000 hours of legal work, and that will earn him cash. He's not employing me because he has some extra money to throw around in his personal bank account, and he's certainly not going to give me any extra money because he has some due to a tax cut.

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No, you'd rather give money to the lower class so they can spend money on alcohol and cigarettes. Doesn't anyone else think that this is the dumbest idea?

First of all, you are making a huge assumption that low-income families will only buy alcohol and tobacco with extra money. I know some low-income families from my hometown, and I know that's not the case. Secondly, it's a stimulus package, not a moral directive. If the alcohol and tobacco industries are the ones that get stimulated the most, then so be it. They are still legal businesses.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:11 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
These... are my own observations... free and clear from the ONLY unbiased network

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I forgot to mention that Obama gave himself an out by saying that we as Americans shouldn't expect the stimulus bill to help immediately


Quote:
Isn't that what his rhetoric was at all his town meetings? We need this bill now!! We need it signed right now!!! America needs it now!!! Oh, its signed, ok, I look at it Tuesday, no really, just put it on my desk, I'll get to it.


Quote:
I also find this statement interesting, "this stimulus will help create or save 3 million jobs..." wow, try not to go out on a limb there buddy. So what you are saying is that the stimulus bill may not even create 1 new job? Its a win-win for him because America bought into it not realizing that if not 1 job is created it is still a success because these "3 million jobs" will be saved. Which ones are they in particular? Again, no litmus test, no matrix, no way of qualifying the effect of the stimulus bill.


Until you can garner your own ideas and stop spewing the same maniacal bullcrap I just can't give any of your arguments to credibility.

So "the ONLY unbiased network" is your own head? Because those are your own quotes.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:16 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
And finally,

I (firmly planted in the middle class) DO NOT want to be paying for some lazy loser who refuses to work, collects food stamps, and doesn't pay taxes. Sorry, I might be a little selfish, but I get up every morning at 4:30am to exercise and then go to my JOB, just so I can make ends meet. I actually work on weekends on side jobs so that I can have just a few more dollars in my pocket, WHY should I pay for someone who is unwilling to do the same? People in this country have fallen into this self-centered sense of security that the government will subsidize their needs and wants. Unfortunately, we have politicians and Americans that give into this weakend state of mind, and glorify themselves by thinking that they are being charitable when in actuality, you are crippling these people.

I found this article by a 5th year Poli-sci major named Bill Thomas, How after 5 years at a University he still retains Conservative values is beyond me. Pay particular attention to the last sentence. I've actually bolded it for you. Did I mention it was written in 2004?

Full article - http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=equal_results_not_guaranteed97

Quote:
If someone is not motivated enough to succeed without a dangling carrot, why should society care to continue to dangle it? Some may say that it is not a lack of ambition, but a lack of tolerance by society for certain minorities. Come on! The idea that in 2004 the establishment is still so infested with racism that it systematically oppresses entire minority groups is absurd!

I take exception to the idea that it is somehow my fault that whites seem to have more money. Nothing is stopping each and every minority from being successful if they are willing to work hard to achieve that success. I am not part of this white wealth that has fared so well during the recession. It is a very cynical perception to view this country as whites and minorities.

America is not a conglomeration of minorities; she is a collection of individuals. We have worked hard in our short history to make sure that each of these individuals has the same rights afforded to him or her. Beyond that, the rest is up to each of us because for the most part, the money follows those who earn it.

This is not to imply that whites work the hardest and that is why they are currently at the top of the heap. Rather, my intention is to suggest that while at one point in our nation's history there was a systematic scheme for excluding minorities from access to avenues of success, that is no longer the case. It may be more difficult for some than for others to achieve success, but that's life.

Heaven knows we all have been acquainted with someone who doesn't deserve the royal flush that life has dealt them. But after all, America was founded on liberty, the idea that we all have equal rights under the law, not equal results.


This is what I believe in...

Well I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised that you take cues from a guy who took 5 years to graduate from a fake university.

Oh, and apparently his name is Bill Peterson, not Bill Thomas.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:02 pm 
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13, there's no use arguing with someone who quotes a known anti-Semite in his signature.

Way to go Wilton.


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Wilton, I just knew you were going to skim over the entire basis of my argument and beliefs and focus on the 5 years it for Bill Thomas or Peterson or whatever. I left that in just to see what you would do, and you proved me right.

Simply put, when a viable argument or point is brought to your attention, you deflect and hurl an insult. You are no better than any of those guys over at CIA. No better...


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:44 pm 
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Right, because you never buy alcohol, cigarettes or drugs. Perhaps you should talk to your doctor before you make any claims regarding this.


Actually this is the only statement that you made that is correct, I DO NOT buy alcohol, cigarettes or drugs.

Additionally, the point wasn't a moral one, but again, you take a viable argument and spin it to make it work for your rebuttle. I don't condemn folks for buying alcohol and cigarettes(drugs are another story), but what kind of stimulus is that going to create?

Quote:
One-third of lower-income adults smoke versus one-fifth of middle- and high-income earners, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.


Quote:
The portion of income spent on alcoholic beverages by the lowest fifth of earners is double that of middle earners and more than three times that of the highest earners, on the average.


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:47 pm 
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If a business owner gets a big chunk of money that is not directly related to the fruits of his employees' labor, why would that cause him to hire more people?


So apply this to an out-of-work deadbeat who enjoys living off of what the government provides him.

If a deadbeat gets a big chunk of money that is not directly related to the fruits of his labor, why would that cause him to seek a proper job to help bring him out of poverty?


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:55 pm 
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First of all, you are making a huge assumption that low-income families will only buy alcohol and tobacco with extra money. I know some low-income families from my hometown, and I know that's not the case. Secondly, it's a stimulus package, not a moral directive. If the alcohol and tobacco industries are the ones that get stimulated the most, then so be it. They are still legal businesses.


How outrageous of an assumption is it? So what DO YOU think they will spend their money on? If they are a hard working, hard luck low income family, they are going to do the right thing and apply their extra money to bills that have fallen behind. According to Obama, he doesn't want Americans to use this money for bills, he is encouraging "spending."

Are you getting all this? Or are you still hung up on the 5 year Poli-Sci student?

Another note, tobacco and alcohol companies according to studies actually profit from a recession...

Quote:
Philip Morris International (PM) said its earnings rose 23% in the second quarter and it raised its earnings forecast for this year, saying it had not been affected by inflationary pressures like other consumer products companies.


Quote:
"Cigarettes in general can withstand such an environment better than many consumer products," Chief Financial Officer Hermann Waldemer said at the time.

According to a USA Today article outlining the correlation to spending on habits during a recession.


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Really? Are my numbers skewed? Can you show me without making unintelligent jabs at whoever you deem to be a liberal democrat?


You mean you aren't? That's such a waste because I have you pegged as a card carrying member...


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:51 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Wilton, I just knew you were going to skim over the entire basis of my argument and beliefs and focus on the 5 years it for Bill Thomas or Peterson or whatever. I left that in just to see what you would do, and you proved me right.

Did you? You wanted me to shoot down the credibility of the author who wrote the basis of what you believe in? That's odd, because most people tend to not want the credibility of their authorities tarnished and usually preempt such an argumentative device.

Quote:
Simply put, when a viable argument or point is brought to your attention, you deflect and hurl an insult. You are no better than any of those guys over at CIA. No better...

What basis? You quoted a guy that talked about his belief that socio-economic divides do not exist in this country, especially regarding race. How does that have anything to do with the stimulus bill?

Not only was Mr. Peterson's article ignorant, but it was also wholly irrelevant to the conversation. It deserved to be lampooned.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Additionally, the point wasn't a moral one, but again, you take a viable argument and spin it to make it work for your rebuttle. I don't condemn folks for buying alcohol and cigarettes(drugs are another story), but what kind of stimulus is that going to create?

One where people are spending money to support local businesses, like drug stores, pharmacies, liquor stores, convenient stores, grocery stores, restaurants, bars, night clubs, and other establishments that sell alcohol, tobacco, and drugs. For better or worse, our economy is significantly invested in those types of establishments.

And again, you are assuming that low-income families will ONLY spend on those items. While lower-income folks may be more likely to buy those items, that does not mean that those items are the ONLY things these people will buy. Some may use that money to pay for bills, food, children's school items, or other discretionary things that they could not afford.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:06 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
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If a business owner gets a big chunk of money that is not directly related to the fruits of his employees' labor, why would that cause him to hire more people?


So apply this to an out-of-work deadbeat who enjoys living off of what the government provides him.

If a deadbeat gets a big chunk of money that is not directly related to the fruits of his labor, why would that cause him to seek a proper job to help bring him out of poverty?

I don't think it would. But then, I don't think that the stimulus bill does that. The Making Work Pay tax credit appears to be conditioned on having a job, so the problem you present does not appear to be involved. But if you think that the stimulus bill is giving a free handout to deadbeats, feel free to show me.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
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Really? Are my numbers skewed? Can you show me without making unintelligent jabs at whoever you deem to be a liberal democrat?


You mean you aren't? That's such a waste because I have you pegged as a card carrying member...

The only organization of which I am a card-carrying member is the American Intellectual Property Law Association. I am a GDI, or God-Damned Independent, and I have been for the past 3 years. The fact that I don't agree with your extremist views does not mean that I am a shill for the Democratic Party.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:25 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
Really? Are my numbers skewed? Can you show me without making unintelligent jabs at whoever you deem to be a liberal democrat?


You mean you aren't? That's such a waste because I have you pegged as a card carrying member...

The only organization of which I am a card-carrying member is the American Intellectual Property Law Association. I am a GDI, or God-Damned Independent, and I have been for the past 3 years. The fact that I don't agree with your extremist views does not mean that I am a shill for the Democratic Party.



Now I've heard everything. I have yet to see you take a position that was anything but ultra liberal.


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:41 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
The only organization of which I am a card-carrying member is the American Intellectual Property Law Association. I am a GDI, or God-Damned Independent, and I have been for the past 3 years. The fact that I don't agree with your extremist views does not mean that I am a shill for the Democratic Party.


Now I've heard everything. I have yet to see you take a position that was anything but ultra liberal.

That's because everything is binary to you: either somebody's position is conservative or ultra liberal. You've apparently never heard of a moderate; otherwise you would have understood why Obama won the election.

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:04 am 
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Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
The only organization of which I am a card-carrying member is the American Intellectual Property Law Association. I am a GDI, or God-Damned Independent, and I have been for the past 3 years. The fact that I don't agree with your extremist views does not mean that I am a shill for the Democratic Party.


Now I've heard everything. I have yet to see you take a position that was anything but ultra liberal.

That's because everything is binary to you: either somebody's position is conservative or ultra liberal. You've apparently never heard of a moderate; otherwise you would have understood why Obama won the election.



YOU'RE NOT A MODERATE!


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:09 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
YOU'RE NOT A MODERATE!

How would you know?

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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:21 am 
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Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
YOU'RE NOT A MODERATE!

How would you know?



Because you have never once taken a position on this board that's even close to being moderate. As far as this board is concerned, you're a far left liberal pretending to be something else. It would be sad if it weren't for the fact that you're in training to be a professional liar.


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 Post subject: Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:59 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
YOU'RE NOT A MODERATE!

How would you know?


Because you have never once taken a position on this board that's even close to being moderate. As far as this board is concerned, you're a far left liberal pretending to be something else. It would be sad if it weren't for the fact that you're in training to be a professional liar.

Ah, let's take a dig at my profession; always a favorite. I suppose I could call you a professional killer in the same token.

On a board that appears to be dominated by conservative minds, the most outspoken of which (you and PF13) appear to be extremists, I suppose I'm not surprised that I'm labeled a crazy, far-left, America-hating, socialist liberal. But again, I don't live in the binary world that you do. And I'm pretty sure we have not spoken exhaustively about every political issue on this board, so I believe that your perception of my political views is suffering from a small-sample size.

But if you want to call me ultra-liberal, that's fine. I'm sure that it will help you sleep at night.

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