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Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits
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Author:  Jeremy [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29210196


The power of the poor once again shows itself in Latin America. I bet Wilton is thrilled this morning.

Author:  ZelieMike [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Well, someone had to take on Castro's mantal. Love how MSNBC talks about Chavez as using Venezuala's oil wealth to address the "gaping differances" in the social order, as opposed to the two-bit dictator that is destroying fundemental societal freedom's in that country.

They'll get what they deserve in the long run.

ZM

Author:  Jeremy [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

ZelieMike wrote:
Well, someone had to take on Castro's mantal. Love how MSNBC talks about Chavez as using Venezuala's oil wealth to address the "gaping differances" in the social order, as opposed to the two-bit dictator that is destroying fundemental societal freedom's in that country.

They'll get what they deserve in the long run.

ZM


Will they Mike? There's a school of thought out there that says that Chavez is just furthering the experiment started in Russia and Cuba.

In fact, there are a lot of people who believe we should stop being so adversarial towards Venezuela and accept that fact that this is a society that's deciding it's own fate of it's own free will. Even the leaders of the opposition aren't protesting the vote. Latin America needs leadership right now. For better or worse, that leader right now is Hugo Chavez. The US can make a dozen enemies in Latin America by openly opposing him, or we can create some much needed good will by dropping our adversarial stance against him and allow his government to run it's course.

I guess it comes down to what you are at heart.....are you a pragmatist or are you an idealist?

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Quote:
Love how MSNBC talks about Chavez as using Venezuala's oil wealth to address the "gaping differances" in the social order, as opposed to the two-bit dictator that is destroying fundemental societal freedom's in that country.

They'll get what they deserve in the long run.



Oh How easily a few words could be replaced and it would be a bit more personal.
Love how MSNBC talks about Obama as using America's Economic Crisis to address the "gaping differances" in the social order, as opposed to the two-bit dictator that is destroying fundemental societal freedom's in this country.

We'll get what we deserve in the long run.

Author:  Willton [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Jeremy wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29210196


The power of the poor once again shows itself in Latin America. I bet Wilton is thrilled this morning.

I could give a rat's ass.

Author:  Substitute2 [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

I'm not sure but some of you guys sound like you really are against America. The same people who screamed that opposing the Iraq War were unpatriotic, now seem to be rooting for America's financial destruction. I little unpatriotic don't you hipocrits think?

problems like this one need everyone at least wanting success.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Substitute2 wrote:
I'm not sure but some of you guys sound like you really are against America. The same people who screamed that opposing the Iraq War were unpatriotic, now seem to be rooting for America's financial destruction. I little unpatriotic don't you hipocrits think?

problems like this one need everyone at least wanting success.


Wanting success and actually trying to obtain success are supposed to be coupled together. The Stimulus bill does verry little to ensure financial success in America. Furthermore, there is virtually no litmus test to see if the stimulus bail actually succeeds or fails. My mama always told me never to buy more stuff when 1st, I am already in debt, and 2nd, when I don't have the money.

Who is going to pay the government the 1 trillion dollars after all of the spending is done? We can't even get public officials to pay their taxes. You, me, and my grandchildren will be paying this back. This spending bill sets us up for a horrendous crash in 4-6 years, but hey who cares, Republicans will be back in office, we can blame it on them by then.

Nobody is rooting for America to fail, we are just rooting for America to wake up out of their acid induced trip that caused them to vote Obama into office. By no means is this a one party rant, the Republicans got fat and lazy and lost their conservative morals, fell into a quasi-liberal state of mind and got their a$$es handed to them in the election. Time to circle the wagons, restore the conservative base, remove all of the Republican fatheads out of Washington.

Author:  BBF [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Substitute2 wrote:
problems like this one need everyone at least wanting success.


It isn't about "wanting" success, its about whether we can reasonably EXPECT success. I "want" the Pirates to win 150 games this year, and I "want" the economy to rebound. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is more likely to occur.

In the case of the stimulus package, I see it as a case of the cure being worse than the disease. That doesn't mean I want it to fail, it means I don't want it done, and I want other options explored instead. So much for that, though.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

I forgot to mention that Obama gave himself an out by saying that we as Americans shouldn't expect the stimulus bill to help immediately.

Isn't that what his rhetoric was at all his town meetings? We need this bill now!! We need it signed right now!!! America needs it now!!! Oh, its signed, ok, I look at it Tuesday, no really, just put it on my desk, I'll get to it.

I also find this statement interesting, "this stimulus will help create or save 3 million jobs..." wow, try not to go out on a limb there buddy. So what you are saying is that the stimulus bill may not even create 1 new job? Its a win-win for him because America bought into it not realizing that if not 1 job is created it is still a success because these "3 million jobs" will be saved. Which ones are they in particular? Again, no litmus test, no matrix, no way of qualifying the effect of the stimulus bill.

Oh and thanks for the cool $400... what's that going to get me? A gallon of milk? I can hear the printing presses going now...

Anybody actually thought about just cutting my taxes? Giving me an extra hundred or two a month? Don't you think that may have stimulated the economy much faster? No, I guess not, give me $400 and then you'll raise my taxes later so you can pay for all the other crap you bought with the spending plan. Oh and let's not forget the people who DON'T pay taxes are actually getting $400 too.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

And just in case Arlen Specter frequents this site as a poster... or not...

Your one of the fatcat Republicans that are going to be voted out! Thanks for all the... never mind, nobody will ever remember you anyway.

Author:  Willton [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Piratefan13 wrote:
I forgot to mention that Obama gave himself an out by saying that we as Americans shouldn't expect the stimulus bill to help immediately.

Isn't that what his rhetoric was at all his town meetings? We need this bill now!! We need it signed right now!!! America needs it now!!! Oh, its signed, ok, I look at it Tuesday, no really, just put it on my desk, I'll get to it.

I also find this statement interesting, "this stimulus will help create or save 3 million jobs..." wow, try not to go out on a limb there buddy. So what you are saying is that the stimulus bill may not even create 1 new job? Its a win-win for him because America bought into it not realizing that if not 1 job is created it is still a success because these "3 million jobs" will be saved. Which ones are they in particular? Again, no litmus test, no matrix, no way of qualifying the effect of the stimulus bill.

Oh and thanks for the cool $400... what's that going to get me? A gallon of milk? I can hear the printing presses going now...

Anybody actually thought about just cutting my taxes? Giving me an extra hundred or two a month? Don't you think that may have stimulated the economy much faster? No, I guess not, give me $400 and then you'll raise my taxes later so you can pay for all the other crap you bought with the spending plan. Oh and let's not forget the people who DON'T pay taxes are actually getting $400 too.

Apparently you didn't pay too much attention to what is actually in the stimulus bill. The bill contains $300 billion in tax cuts.

Most economists agree that the most effective way to stimulate the economy is to spend money and that the most effective tax cuts are those that go to people who will spend money right away. Since the lower-income taxpayers are those who have less income and thus greater marginal utility of the dollar, they are the ones most likely to spend the tax cut and stimulate the economy. Upper-income taxpayers (like me) are more likely to save extra money for a rainy day. Money sitting in banks that have already become super-lending-shy doesn't stimulate the economy, and money salted away in offshore tax havens or other offshore investments doesn't stimulate the economy. Trickle-down does not trickle down in a recession.

As for your criticism of the timing of Obama signing the bill, give it a rest. In case you weren't paying attention, Monday was a federal holiday. The bill would not have been implemented any sooner than Tuesday. If you want to criticize the stimulus bill, then criticize that. Acting like some Faux News Channel talk-show host just makes you look like a hack.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Quote:
As for your criticism of the timing of Obama signing the bill, give it a rest. In case you weren't paying attention, Monday was a federal holiday. The bill would not have been implemented any sooner than Tuesday. If you want to criticize the stimulus bill, then criticize that. Acting like some Faux News Channel talk-show host just makes you look like a hack.


I'm not acting like anyone, like you, I am taking the information and making a judgment upon the facts as I see them. If he wasn't going to sign the bill until Tuesday, don't you think it would make sense to give the Senate the extra days to view the bill. Regardless of which party Obama is a part of, it looks awfully fishy.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Quote:
As for your criticism of the timing of Obama signing the bill, give it a rest. In case you weren't paying attention, Monday was a federal holiday. The bill would not have been implemented any sooner than Tuesday. If you want to criticize the stimulus bill, then criticize that. Acting like some Faux News Channel talk-show host just makes you look like a hack.


And you have so much more credibility getting your information from the Communist News Network. Please!!

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Quote:
Apparently you didn't pay too much attention to what is actually in the stimulus bill. The bill contains $300 billion in tax cuts.


So who exactly is getting these "tax cuts?" And how can they physically reduce taxes when the stimulus/spending bill is going to have to be paid for? Is there an actual percentage that my taxes are going to go down? Do I have to be a left wing liberal to qualify for these tax cuts? You have no idea either, you are virtually going on what you are being told by the Liberal media and a President that needs to save his ass. I hope you aren't getting your information from that stimulus propaganda site, because if you are, we need to stop this conversation right here because it's going to be a waste of my time to argue with someone so gullible.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Quote:
Most economists agree that the most effective way to stimulate the economy is to spend money and that the most effective tax cuts are those that go to people who will spend money right away.


Most economists? Which ones? Liberal Democrat economists. Your numbers are a bit skewed, its actually a little more closer to 50/50 on the economists... not "most." The only "most" part is the ones that CNN interviews.

People that will spend money right away? Who is that? The people that are poor, or the people who don't pay taxes? And if they are to take a poll of this class of folks, what would the percentage of purchases be of alcohol,cigarettes, and drugs? Wow, our beer distributors will be able to keep their employees, and the tobacco companies are going to be set.

Wouldn't you think giving money to the middle to upper class would help stimulate the economy more and faster, since these are the classes that tend to spread out their spending?

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Quote:
Since the lower-income taxpayers are those who have less income and thus greater marginal utility of the dollar, they are the ones most likely to spend the tax cut and stimulate the economy.


Yep... on beer and cigarettes...

Quote:
Upper-income taxpayers (like me) are more likely to save extra money for a rainy day. Money sitting in banks that have already become super-lending-shy doesn't stimulate the economy, and money salted away in offshore tax havens or other offshore investments doesn't stimulate the economy. Trickle-down does not trickle down in a recession.


Talk about me sticking to a party line approach... This would hold maybe a little water if much of the stimulus bill wasn't going to liberal business and agencies that contributed to the Obama for god... oh I'm sorry, President campaign.

Who do you think keeps people employed? Who do you think hires more people? Not the lower-class out-of-work deadbeat! Its the business owner. So you need to go and review your trickle down theory notes and come back with a more realistic answer. If you give the businesses more money to work with, then employees can be retained and more could possibly be hired.

No, you'd rather give money to the lower class so they can spend money on alcohol and cigarettes. Doesn't anyone else think that this is the dumbest idea?

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

These... are my own observations... free and clear from the ONLY unbiased network

Quote:
I forgot to mention that Obama gave himself an out by saying that we as Americans shouldn't expect the stimulus bill to help immediately


Quote:
Isn't that what his rhetoric was at all his town meetings? We need this bill now!! We need it signed right now!!! America needs it now!!! Oh, its signed, ok, I look at it Tuesday, no really, just put it on my desk, I'll get to it.


Quote:
I also find this statement interesting, "this stimulus will help create or save 3 million jobs..." wow, try not to go out on a limb there buddy. So what you are saying is that the stimulus bill may not even create 1 new job? Its a win-win for him because America bought into it not realizing that if not 1 job is created it is still a success because these "3 million jobs" will be saved. Which ones are they in particular? Again, no litmus test, no matrix, no way of qualifying the effect of the stimulus bill.


Until you can garner your own ideas and stop spewing the same maniacal bullcrap I just can't give any of your arguments to credibility.

Author:  Piratefan13 [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

And finally,

I (firmly planted in the middle class) DO NOT want to be paying for some lazy loser who refuses to work, collects food stamps, and doesn't pay taxes. Sorry, I might be a little selfish, but I get up every morning at 4:30am to exercise and then go to my JOB, just so I can make ends meet. I actually work on weekends on side jobs so that I can have just a few more dollars in my pocket, WHY should I pay for someone who is unwilling to do the same? People in this country have fallen into this self-centered sense of security that the government will subsidize their needs and wants. Unfortunately, we have politicians and Americans that give into this weakend state of mind, and glorify themselves by thinking that they are being charitable when in actuality, you are crippling these people.

I found this article by a 5th year Poli-sci major named Bill Thomas, How after 5 years at a University he still retains Conservative values is beyond me. Pay particular attention to the last sentence. I've actually bolded it for you. Did I mention it was written in 2004?

Full article - http://www.newuniversity.org/main/article?slug=equal_results_not_guaranteed97

Quote:
If someone is not motivated enough to succeed without a dangling carrot, why should society care to continue to dangle it? Some may say that it is not a lack of ambition, but a lack of tolerance by society for certain minorities. Come on! The idea that in 2004 the establishment is still so infested with racism that it systematically oppresses entire minority groups is absurd!

I take exception to the idea that it is somehow my fault that whites seem to have more money. Nothing is stopping each and every minority from being successful if they are willing to work hard to achieve that success. I am not part of this white wealth that has fared so well during the recession. It is a very cynical perception to view this country as whites and minorities.

America is not a conglomeration of minorities; she is a collection of individuals. We have worked hard in our short history to make sure that each of these individuals has the same rights afforded to him or her. Beyond that, the rest is up to each of us because for the most part, the money follows those who earn it.

This is not to imply that whites work the hardest and that is why they are currently at the top of the heap. Rather, my intention is to suggest that while at one point in our nation's history there was a systematic scheme for excluding minorities from access to avenues of success, that is no longer the case. It may be more difficult for some than for others to achieve success, but that's life.

Heaven knows we all have been acquainted with someone who doesn't deserve the royal flush that life has dealt them. But after all, America was founded on liberty, the idea that we all have equal rights under the law, not equal results.


This is what I believe in...

Author:  Jeremy [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Willton wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
I forgot to mention that Obama gave himself an out by saying that we as Americans shouldn't expect the stimulus bill to help immediately.

Isn't that what his rhetoric was at all his town meetings? We need this bill now!! We need it signed right now!!! America needs it now!!! Oh, its signed, ok, I look at it Tuesday, no really, just put it on my desk, I'll get to it.

I also find this statement interesting, "this stimulus will help create or save 3 million jobs..." wow, try not to go out on a limb there buddy. So what you are saying is that the stimulus bill may not even create 1 new job? Its a win-win for him because America bought into it not realizing that if not 1 job is created it is still a success because these "3 million jobs" will be saved. Which ones are they in particular? Again, no litmus test, no matrix, no way of qualifying the effect of the stimulus bill.

Oh and thanks for the cool $400... what's that going to get me? A gallon of milk? I can hear the printing presses going now...

Anybody actually thought about just cutting my taxes? Giving me an extra hundred or two a month? Don't you think that may have stimulated the economy much faster? No, I guess not, give me $400 and then you'll raise my taxes later so you can pay for all the other crap you bought with the spending plan. Oh and let's not forget the people who DON'T pay taxes are actually getting $400 too.

Apparently you didn't pay too much attention to what is actually in the stimulus bill. The bill contains $300 billion in tax cuts.

Most economists agree that the most effective way to stimulate the economy is to spend money and that the most effective tax cuts are those that go to people who will spend money right away. Since the lower-income taxpayers are those who have less income and thus greater marginal utility of the dollar, they are the ones most likely to spend the tax cut and stimulate the economy. Upper-income taxpayers (like me) are more likely to save extra money for a rainy day. Money sitting in banks that have already become super-lending-shy doesn't stimulate the economy, and money salted away in offshore tax havens or other offshore investments doesn't stimulate the economy. Trickle-down does not trickle down in a recession.

As for your criticism of the timing of Obama signing the bill, give it a rest. In case you weren't paying attention, Monday was a federal holiday. The bill would not have been implemented any sooner than Tuesday. If you want to criticize the stimulus bill, then criticize that. Acting like some Faux News Channel talk-show host just makes you look like a hack.



Steve Forbes thinks you're an idiot, but you probably already knew that.

Author:  Willton [ Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chavez wins vote to scrap term limits

Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
Apparently you didn't pay too much attention to what is actually in the stimulus bill. The bill contains $300 billion in tax cuts.


So who exactly is getting these "tax cuts?" And how can they physically reduce taxes when the stimulus/spending bill is going to have to be paid for? Is there an actual percentage that my taxes are going to go down? Do I have to be a left wing liberal to qualify for these tax cuts? You have no idea either, you are virtually going on what you are being told by the Liberal media and a President that needs to save his ass. I hope you aren't getting your information from that stimulus propaganda site, because if you are, we need to stop this conversation right here because it's going to be a waste of my time to argue with someone so gullible.

No, I'm getting my information from tax professionals that have read the actual bill that was passed. In case you didn't know, legislative bills are public documents. If you're so afraid of getting a biased view of the stimulus bill, then you can read it yourself. Otherwise, you can get your information from people who actually know more about tax policy than you apparently do. I encourage you to educate yourself on tax policy if you want to have an intelligent discussion about what should go in a proper stimulus package.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... onal_news/
http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/blog/ ... 96234.html
http://ataxingmatter.blogs.com/tax/2009 ... -deal.html
http://dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com/do ... -card.html
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopic ... imulus.cfm

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