Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:59 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:25 am 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6283
I don't know how schools are being effected in other parts of the country but we (PE teachers) were called in Monday as soon as we walked in the door and were told that a PE position was being cut at all of our middle schools. This is the 3rd time in 5 years PE has been cut. The sacred cow, music, has not yet been touched. My question is how many kids are still playing the trombone when they are 40? How many kids will be involved in lifetime sports when they are 40? think about it. Az is 49th in per/pupil funding just ahead of Mississippi. The 4 teachers, including myself were called in to the principal's office yesterday and asked why we should not be the teacher let go. No warning. Isn't life grand?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Az Bucco fan wrote:
I don't know how schools are being effected in other parts of the country but we (PE teachers) were called in Monday as soon as we walked in the door and were told that a PE position was being cut at all of our middle schools. This is the 3rd time in 5 years PE has been cut. The sacred cow, music, has not yet been touched. My question is how many kids are still playing the trombone when they are 40? How many kids will be involved in lifetime sports when they are 40? think about it. Az is 49th in per/pupil funding just ahead of Mississippi. The 4 teachers, including myself were called in to the principal's office yesterday and asked why we should not be the teacher let go. No warning. Isn't life grand?

I encourage you to check this out:
http://www.classicsforkids.com/teachers ... nefits.asp

Something to ponder: How long did John Elway's football career last? How long did Cal Ripken play pro sports? 15 years? Maybe 20?
How long have Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana been playing music professionally? How long did Luciano Pavarotti's vocalist career last?

What is the likelihood that an athlete will still be a good athlete in his 60's? What's the likelihood that a musician will be so in his 60's?

I played trumpet from 4th grade 'til 12th grade, and as you might expect, I don't play it anymore. But the things that I learned (reading music, harmonization, music theory, octaves, counting in bases other than 10, etc.) and the basic skills that were enhanced (timing, coordination, creative thinking, etc.) from music education have helped me in math, science, logical reasoning, electrical engineering, and the law. I understand the importance of physical education and fitness, and I'm very sorry about your school's plight. But don't knock music education.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:11 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6283
Can you justify a guitar class with 10 students or a drama class that has never put on a play?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Can you justify a guitar class with 10 students or a drama class that has never put on a play?

No, I can't. But there's two problems here: (1) I'm not the music teacher there, so I don't have the best information, and (2) just because the music program appears to have failed at your school does not mean that it's a poor investment and not as deserving as physical education.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:01 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6283
In our district the music department is the tail that wags the dog. They have the most powerful parent group when it comes to influence. Administrators don't have the stones to stand up to them.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:54 pm
Posts: 941
Az Bucco fan wrote:
In our district the music department is the tail that wags the dog. They have the most powerful parent group when it comes to influence. Administrators don't have the stones to stand up to them.

That strikes me as an anomaly, albiet an unfortunate one for you, AZ. I have many friends and family members who teach in Maryland and Virginia, and over the years they've been pretty much unanimous in voicing their concerns about music and arts education being the first on the chopping block when budgets are tight.

_________________
I woke up with a clown's hand in my pants. That's what I did today.

Small ball is the hobgoblin of small minds.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:08 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Boston, MA
Just because the drama class hasn't put on a play yet, and perhaps is failing as a class, isn't it just as important to have an outlet for the children interested in acting to learn? As it is to have the children interested in guitar to have a place to play?

I'm not knocking the need to have to PE--While in high school my best times were playing in PE, as well as my theatre work in drama.

I think the biggest problem here is that education is getting cut at all.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:01 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6283
We have been led to believe that numbers would dictate cuts. Didn't happen. We have lost 6 PE positions in the last 4 years at the middle school level. Electives have also lost an art teacher, shop teacher and home ec teacher during the same period. Music ed has lost none. I have nothing against the music ed program but the numbers tell the story. I agree that cuts in education should be the last resort. Unfortunately, our legislature doesn't feel the same way. They have also pulled funding for all day kindergarten. The universities here have been hammered too. All ASU employees will be required to take a 3 week unpaid furlough due to funding cuts and ASU will also be laying off over 1000 employees. The legislators won't raise taxes because they fear the reaction of the electorate. I just don't see how these deficits can be made up without raising taxes. I am no economic genius but I have no problem paying taxes for services. I also don't want to beat a dead horse but the money pit that is Iraq has to enter into the equation.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
Arizona is in the crapper because the liberals idiots you kept elected to office allowed growth to go unchecked in the state. Anyone with a 10th grade education could see that the housing/service sector in Arizona was headed for a huge fall as long ago as 2003. I personally knew 20 year old kids getting loans for 1200 and 1500 sqft homes for 150000 to 200000. While the housing market was booming away, the good people in the Grand Canyon State refused to nurture future technologies like medicine and energy.

To sit here now and blame Iraq for the cuts in your school is outrageous! Your school and your state are in trouble because the people who run your state are morons and you people kept electing them.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:16 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6283
You might want to check your facts about all the liberals in Az. Let's see, John McCain, John Kyl, a republican majority legislature since forever, Rick Renzi, Rep. Flake. The governor was a Dem along with a couple of guys in the house of rep. No? We live in a state dominated by republicans who refuse to raise taxes to pay the bills. I can't remember the last time a politician approved a mortgage loan. Maybe you can enlighten me on that one. It is the republicans who are against any type of regulation, see GW and his cronies. We aren't in the medical research field? HMMM.... ASU has one of the largest biotech facilities in the US. The Mayo Clinic is here. Heck my wife works for Caris Diagnostics with one of the worlds foremost pathologists. Let's see what else there is......Allied Signal, Boeing and the Apache helicopter is made here. U of A med school. Palo Verde nuclear power facility is here and solar power is being developed across the state and home solar power systems are being marketed heavily. And.....the amount of money being spent on this war in Iraq has caused the national deficit to grow to nearly obscene levels. If you don't believe that you must be part ostrich. Of course you are military so you love the spending in that regard. You obviously have a big basket of sour grapes resulting from your stay in our fine state. However, before you start slinging mud you need to get your facts straight. If i didn't know better i would think you and DK must be related. LOL


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
I was going to reply to Jeremy, but I'll just sign on to AZBF's comment. I will say one thing: allowing housing growth to go unchecked sounds like an old saw of conservatives, not liberals. You know, that whole laissez-faire thing...

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:26 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:11 pm
Posts: 3364
Location: Wheeling, WV
Az's plight should not become a political football guys. I have been a teacher for 39 years. First 34 in the classroom and now what my user name says because I voluntarily retired at 57.

Couple of questions for Az: Don't you guys have seniority? Aren't people hired and fired based on something other then the wim of a principal? Shame on you guys for allowing that to happen to the good teachers in AZ.

I've seen many principals and know that many of them have no ability to know who's a good teacher and who is not. They tend to think the one who bothers them least is the best. Both the Fine Arts and Physical Education and Health are important and kids need both. Looks like your system doesn't value PE very much.

It probably surprises people to hear the music is so highly regarded. You are exactly right. They have the most active parents who raise a lot of money for the band. They make sure that their kids don't get short changed, and they are there immediately to complain if another program gets something that they don't. Good people but like a little paranoid in this area.

I fill in for over 100 teachers every year and can testify that like everything else there are good and bad. Just like there are good and bad administrators. The important issue for education is how to determine the best or in this case the worst teacher. Test scores of kids are not at all fair. The teacher with the more gifted students will look better consistantly. No way test scores can determine who is the best.

Good luck AZ

You need to develop a fair system for cutbacks that treats everyone fairly. If all things are equal or close, there has to be a criteria for making these important decisions. Sorry to hear you are in this predicament and wish you luck. For reading your posts I am confident that you are a competent teacher, and I feel for you.

_________________
2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
AZ can kiss my ass.

It's good to know you hate the military.....at least you have the stones to admit it. And I didn't know you hated the military Wilton, but it comes as little surprise to me.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:26 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:30 pm
Posts: 6283
Jeremy you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that I hate the military. A strong military is crucial to the defense and safety of our country. I hate the war that we are involved in. The military is simply a pawn of the government. They have a mission and when assigned ;they do it. It is not for them to determine the validity or the value of the mission but to simply carry out the mission. I see that you haven't disputed anything I said about the political make up of Az. That said, I would never lower myself to the level of personal attack that you have made. Amazing how easy it is to make statements like you have towards me behind the veil of the internet. Take a chill pill man. Life is too short to stroke out over something like this. Besides in the big picture we are nearly powerless to make a real difference in what the government does. By the way, I am a registered independent and no apologist for either party.

Sub, Arizona is a right to work state. Our union is powerless in any dispute such as the one you speak of. Our school board could come to us and say take a 20% pay cut and it is basically a take it or leave it proposition. There is no policy for who gets moved when the position is eliminated. It does allow for the administrator to get rid of an incompetent employee if need be. I am fortunate in that I do work for a good boss who came in and cleaned this inner city school up. Retired Marine major who is a good guy but no nonsense. He tells good stories too.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:36 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Jeremy wrote:
AZ can kiss my ass.

It's good to know you hate the military.....at least you have the stones to admit it. And I didn't know you hated the military Wilton, but it comes as little surprise to me.

Go ahead, take another swing at your straw man, Jeremy! It must be fun to argue when you manufacture the other side's position from whole cloth.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:02 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
Quote:
And.....the amount of money being spent on this war in Iraq has caused the national deficit to grow to nearly obscene levels. If you don't believe that you must be part ostrich. Of course you are military so you love the spending in that regard.


Yeah.......I'm the one putting words in people's mouths.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:17 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Jeremy wrote:
Quote:
And.....the amount of money being spent on this war in Iraq has caused the national deficit to grow to nearly obscene levels. If you don't believe that you must be part ostrich. Of course you are military so you love the spending in that regard.


Yeah.......I'm the one putting words in people's mouths.

Calling out your bias does not equal hating the military. Claiming that the Iraq war is bankrupting the economy does not equal hating the military. You claiming otherwise is outlandish and wholly unreasonable. Stop erecting strawmen.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:19 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Quote:
And.....the amount of money being spent on this war in Iraq has caused the national deficit to grow to nearly obscene levels. If you don't believe that you must be part ostrich. Of course you are military so you love the spending in that regard.


Yeah.......I'm the one putting words in people's mouths.

Calling out your bias does not equal hating the military. Claiming that the Iraq war is bankrupting the economy does not equal hating the military. You claiming otherwise is outlandish and wholly unreasonable. Stop erecting strawmen.



Get back to me when you understand what you're talking about.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Calling out your bias does not equal hating the military. Claiming that the Iraq war is bankrupting the economy does not equal hating the military. You claiming otherwise is outlandish and wholly unreasonable. Stop erecting strawmen.



Get back to me when you understand what you're talking about.

The above is more evidence that no one can have a reasoned conversation or argument with Jeremy. He makes strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks whenever he can.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: It's hitting the fan........
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 1163
Maybe someday you'll understand what a strawman argument is.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits