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 Post subject: Nauseating
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:06 pm 
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You want to know why African-Americans/blacks reacted in the way they did when Obama won?

Here's an example:
http://www.record-eagle.com/local/local ... 95335.html

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:13 pm 
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Some will always hate and want to divide America.

This is Saturday and I feel great still from the election. I have a difficult time expressing the joy in my heart for the America I knew was there. This is truly a turning point in our history. By electing a black man we have moved past an ugly part of our past. There are many other reasons as well that makes this a turning point in our history.

If you read the Washington Post or the NY Times, you can see the feeling I have expressed much better then I can say it, but I agree. For those who disagree, I would ask that you are open to what it takes to improve our country. What changes need to take place so that we can be a more perfect union? Let us for once try to look at the general welfare and not just our self-interest. It seems like we have allowed ourselves get divided up into seeing everything in the light of only our own interest and if that is at the expense of what's right, well that's ok with me. Let's take some time to do what benefits us all.

I won't live to see it but by 2042, according to the census department, whites will amount to 46% of the population. I hope minority rights will be protected in that America. And I hope people will be there fighting for the promise of America.

I believe that we have entered a new era in American history. The Reagan era has had it's day with much good but plenty of wrong direction as well. Now, we enter an era of progressive change. It is like the early 1900's when there was great need to improve the lot of the average guy who had been held down but the robber barons of post civil war, industrial America. I don't see drastic change, but slow, moderate movement to a better country. Obama is no radical, he will move us gradually in the right direction if we are able to work together for a more perfect union.

I am anxious for the future and feel good about the chances of a better America.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:38 pm 
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I neither share your sentiment or enthusiasm. I spent most of Tuesday with a feeling of dread, a feeling that the country that we once called free would be shackled by a "historical feeling" as opposed to a righteous event. I honestly didn't feel as though McCain represented my party well at all, as I found myself wishing that the ticket was inverted, with Palin leading the charge. But to have Sen Obama elected President made my stomach turn, his radical ideas coupled with the Democrat majority House and Senate makes Obama's first 2 years at least similar to a dictatorship. The history we as an American people witnessed was not the fact that a black President was elected, but the first time media swayed the balance of public opinion largely in one direction. Race, creed, or gender mean nothing to me, but the idea that America will seek to pull back from all that was accomplished in Iraq, makes me angry. I feel as though Obama will be virtually handing the country back to the evil that once dominated its society. As a historian, Vietnam immediately comes to mind, and as a veteran, I would not like to see the stain of a loss on my generation of soldiers like the one so unfairly placed upon my fathers’ generation. Those times showed a kind of America that fought a war intermingled with politics, which in turn forced us to tuck tail and run. I fear the new administration will adopt the quitters’ sickness, an infection that rages already throughout our generation, where it’s just easier to quit when things get difficult.

I know most of you are excited about what "changes" may be coming, but two quotes immediately come to mind in this situation. They are actually two different versions of a more readily used expression, "be careful for what you wish for because you may just get it." Mother Teresa says, “More tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones” and Edward Dahlberg gives this account, "Ambition is a Dead Sea fruit and the greatest peril to the soul is that one is likely to get precisely what he is seeking." This country starved for any kind of change from George Bush, and surely Bush did some things wrong, but he did many things right. Unfortunately, you would never hear them from the unbalanced media outlets bent upon securing the way for the Democratic Party to regain control of this great nation. The most frightening thing I've heard is the willingness for this media to liken Obama to a "savior" or "Christ" by liberally using a term like "what would Obama do (WWOD)?" The only thing I can do as a staunch conservative is to continue to uphold what is moral and just in this country, continue to fight for our freedoms and the health of capitalism, the two most attractive qualities of this great nation. I believe I shall see the time when Christianity will have to go on the defensive, peacemakers will become rebels, and we will have to fight for our very own freedom to worship and to serve the Lord. Unfortunately, the changes themselves have already begun to take place.

Racism or discrimination will never fade in this country, as long as there are differences in race, religion, gender, or status, peoples will be at odds with each other. The election of a "black" president will do nothing to stem the tide of racism in this country, only education can bring about such change. The sentiment that electing a "black" president to somehow repay or to restore the African-American population is insulting and it will prove to be an empty one at best. I believe the more that is made of an issue of difference; the more the gap between the two grows. Media has gone overboard with the excitement of introducing a "black president", which in turn has isolated and infuriated the white America that is ignorant to or has less interaction with an African-American population that so deeply enriches this country. As for the gentleman gun shop owner using racial slurs to describe his anger, I can understand, but I cannot tolerate.


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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:22 pm 
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Get used to it. Conservatives will never get back the Republican Party so you better form your own party. Most of America woke up from Bush's fear tactics and Conservatives righteousness. The only way the Republicans get their power back is if they go back to Ronald Reagan's Republican party. And they know it.

You had your eight years and blew it. Americans woke up. Now, that philosophy will continue to be rejected unless there is another event where fear can be created again.

Don't forget, minorities will be the majority very soon. The white, right-wing Christian's numbers are dwindling and so is their power.

Hopefully, Barack Obama will unite this country and do what's best for the people of this country. I don't know if he will or he won't. Of course, people like you won't give him a chance. In your eyes, he has already failed.

And by the way, Sarah Palin is a joke. She lost more votes for McCain then she gained. Hopefull, the only place we will see her again is on some reality show on A&E.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:24 pm 
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I'll give him as much a chance as the media gave Bush... Fair enough?


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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Race, creed, or gender mean nothing to me, but the idea that America will seek to pull back from all that was accomplished in Iraq, makes me angry. I feel as though Obama will be virtually handing the country back to the evil that once dominated its society. As a historian, Vietnam immediately comes to mind, and as a veteran, I would not like to see the stain of a loss on my generation of soldiers like the one so unfairly placed upon my fathers’ generation. Those times showed a kind of America that fought a war intermingled with politics, which in turn forced us to tuck tail and run. I fear the new administration will adopt the quitters’ sickness, an infection that rages already throughout our generation, where it’s just easier to quit when things get difficult.

This is one of the more ignorant things I've read regarding politics and war. The push to get our troops out of Iraq is not out of concern that things will get difficult; it is out of concern that (1) we should not have been in it in the first place, and (2) this idea that we have to "win" a war with no perceived goal will only perpetuate our troops' presence in Iraq.

The idea that you appear to be holding up is that we should not question the actions of our government when it enters the U.S. into a war of choice. This is what I infer from your disdain for "a war intermingled with politics." Guess what? The decision to go to war is almost always a decision based upon policy. War is an extralegal remedy that a country may choose to seek in order to resolve a dispute with another country, and in our country, our elected officials are the ones that make that decision. In my view, to say that war should be divorced from politics is to say that the American people should not have a voice when it comes to making the decision of whether to go to war. That is antithetical to democracy.

Believe me when I say this: those of us who denigrate the war in Iraq do NOT denigrate those who fight in the war in Iraq. We denigrate the people who chose to make our soldiers fight in the war in Iraq, and we question the judgment of those who would continue to leave those soldiers in harm's way. I don't know if you have friends or relatives in Iraq right now, but I do, and I see no reason for them to risk their lives while the U.S. goes into bankruptcy over a fruitless cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:15 pm 
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Quote:
This is one of the more ignorant things I've read regarding politics and war. The push to get our troops out of Iraq is not out of concern that things will get difficult; it is out of concern that (1) we should not have been in it in the first place, and (2) this idea that we have to "win" a war with no perceived goal will only perpetuate our troops' presence in Iraq.


What do you know about the war in Iraq? What do you know other than what CNN or Fox News tells you? Are you in the government and privy to secure military information? Or do you get your statistics and opinions from what you watch on TV? The only thing that is ignorant is your dillusion that you are informed. I hold a clearance and I'm not even informed. But what I do see is:

1. A vicious tyrant in Saddam Hussein is dead and gone
2. We haven't had an attack on in the US for 7 years
3. We have an apparent stronghold deep in the middle of the hotbed of terrorism(the Middle East)
4. We have instilled a democracy in the country of Iraq, providing freedom for its people
5. Terror cells are fighting us there, against our soldiers, instead of here, against our civilians
6. Iraq gives us a great launch point for our inevitable confrontation with Iran

Seems to me that things are in good shape. So in a way, we are both ignorant to the details of the war in Iraq so as we are left to our perceptions. Mine look much brighter than yours.

Quote:
Guess what? The decision to go to war is almost always a decision based upon policy. War is an extralegal remedy that a country may choose to seek in order to resolve a dispute with another country, and in our country, our elected officials are the ones that make that decision. In my view, to say that war should be divorced from politics is to say that the American people should not have a voice when it comes to making the decision of whether to go to war. That is antithetical to democracy.


Policy and politics are how we establish war, but once it is declared, the military should be given every resource to complete the mission swiftly. The war in Iraq and the war in Vietnam are similiar in retrospect based upon the concern to "appease" everyone instead of get the job done.


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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:37 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I'll give him as much a chance as the media gave Bush... Fair enough?


So it's the media's fault Bush failed? I don't think so.

Piratefan13 wrote:
1. A vicious tyrant in Saddam Hussein is dead and gone
2. We haven't had an attack on in the US for 7 years
3. We have an apparent stronghold deep in the middle of the hotbed of terrorism(the Middle East)
4. We have instilled a democracy in the country of Iraq, providing freedom for its people
5. Terror cells are fighting us there, against our soldiers, instead of here, against our civilians
6. Iraq gives us a great launch point for our inevitable confrontation with Iran


1. And now have you religious clerics running the county in the name of Allah.
2. And the same thing could have happened if we didn't go to Iraq.
3. No, the hotbed of terrorism is in Afghanistan, the ignored war. There were no terrorists in Iraq before we got there.
4. Democracy? You really think that government is going to hold up? Democracy has no chance of survival in Iraq. If we leave tommorrow or 20 years from now, the religious sects will have a civil war and whoever comes out on top, their religion will run the country.
5. If we spent the 20 billion a month on actually securing our borders, intelligence agencies and making our homeland secure, we wouldn't have to worry about it anyway.
6. If we need to go into a war with Iran, then so be it because there might actually be a reason to go to war with them. But we will go under the UN Flag with worldwide support, not as the big bully who does what they want because they deem themselves the saviors of the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:38 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Get used to it. Conservatives will never get back the Republican Party so you better form your own party. Most of America woke up from Bush's fear tactics and Conservatives righteousness...

You had your eight years and blew it. Americans woke up. Now, that philosophy will continue to be rejected unless there is another event where fear can be created again.

Don't forget, minorities will be the majority very soon. The white, right-wing Christian's numbers are dwindling and so is their power.

Hopefully, Barack Obama will unite this country and do what's best for the people of this country. I don't know if he will or he won't. Of course, people like you won't give him a chance. In your eyes, he has already failed.

And by the way, Sarah Palin is a joke. She lost more votes for McCain then she gained. Hopefull, the only place we will see her again is on some reality show on A&E.


This attitude is one of seen before, in the 1970's, and again in the early '90's. In short, its the type of short sighted and vindictive attitude that gets one thrown out of office in the mid-terms.

Dem's would do well to curb this approach, if they want to hold power. Their landslide was electoral, not popular vote, and was driven by independants running away from financial collapse. That is easily turned if BHO doesn't fix up the economy.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:01 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
I'll give him as much a chance as the media gave Bush... Fair enough?


So it's the media's fault Bush failed? I don't think so.

Piratefan13 wrote:
1. A vicious tyrant in Saddam Hussein is dead and gone
2. We haven't had an attack on in the US for 7 years
3. We have an apparent stronghold deep in the middle of the hotbed of terrorism(the Middle East)
4. We have instilled a democracy in the country of Iraq, providing freedom for its people
5. Terror cells are fighting us there, against our soldiers, instead of here, against our civilians
6. Iraq gives us a great launch point for our inevitable confrontation with Iran


1. And now have you religious clerics running the county in the name of Allah.
2. And the same thing could have happened if we didn't go to Iraq.
3. No, the hotbed of terrorism is in Afghanistan, the ignored war. There were no terrorists in Iraq before we got there.
4. Democracy? You really think that government is going to hold up? Democracy has no chance of survival in Iraq. If we leave tommorrow or 20 years from now, the religious sects will have a civil war and whoever comes out on top, their religion will run the country.
5. If we spent the 20 billion a month on actually securing our borders, intelligence agencies and making our homeland secure, we wouldn't have to worry about it anyway.
6. If we need to go into a war with Iran, then so be it because there might actually be a reason to go to war with them. But we will go under the UN Flag with worldwide support, not as the big bully who does what they want because they deem themselves the saviors of the world.



Come on, that is a pretty poor effort in trying to spin things in your views. My wife works in the media. Their bosses tell them that fear sells. Being upset sells. The viewership will agree with a news station if they say it's freezing cold even though the thermometer reads 95 degrees and 99% humidity.

Afghanistan is the ignored war? Why? Because we haven't had as many troops killed there lately? It isn't news if they lead off a telecast saying "Two schools open in Afghanistan...women allowed to vote for first time."

I could go on and on about the media. It isn't there to inform...it's there to get ratings and money.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:09 pm 
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IA Pirate wrote:
Come on, that is a pretty poor effort in trying to spin things in your views. My wife works in the media. Their bosses tell them that fear sells. Being upset sells. The viewership will agree with a news station if they say it's freezing cold even though the thermometer reads 95 degrees and 99% humidity.

Afghanistan is the ignored war? Why? Because we haven't had as many troops killed there lately? It isn't news if they lead off a telecast saying "Two schools open in Afghanistan...women allowed to vote for first time."

I could go on and on about the media. It isn't there to inform...it's there to get ratings and money.


What does the media have to do with my points? You can't fight religion, IA. It's stronger than any government.

As for Afghanistan, my point is that is where the war on terrorism should have been fought. We have not put the same resources in that battle that we have in Iraq. This is coming from our military leaders, not the media.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/lo ... 75795.aspx

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:35 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
What do you know about the war in Iraq? What do you know other than what CNN or Fox News tells you? Are you in the government and privy to secure military information? Or do you get your statistics and opinions from what you watch on TV? The only thing that is ignorant is your dillusion that you are informed. I hold a clearance and I'm not even informed.

Given your apparent definition of informed, you're right: I'm not informed. The Administration has not informed me or the rest of the public of the true reasons for the war, the goals the administration hopes to achieve in going to war, whether we've made any progress to those purported goals, or whether there is any hope that we're going to end this war. There's no transparency regarding the war. Instead, we have to do our own investigation through the media, and I see this as a problem.

You don't see this lack of information as a problem? Shouldn't we know of the reasons for going to war? Shouldn't we know of the progress and pitfalls that have occurred during the war? Why should it be permissible for the Administration to operate in a completely black box when it comes to the lives of our soldiers and the money in our nation's coffers? I can understand some confidentiality, but in my view, the people that choose to give these administrators the powers they exercise should receive in return good information on why and how the administrators choose to exercise their powers. The Government is supposed to be responsive to the people, not the other way around.

Quote:
1. A vicious tyrant in Saddam Hussein is dead and gone
2. We haven't had an attack on in the US for 7 years
3. We have an apparent stronghold deep in the middle of the hotbed of terrorism(the Middle East)
4. We have instilled a democracy in the country of Iraq, providing freedom for its people
5. Terror cells are fighting us there, against our soldiers, instead of here, against our civilians
6. Iraq gives us a great launch point for our inevitable confrontation with Iran

1. Fair enough, but I don't think that was our choice to make. It should be up to the Iraqi people if they want tyranny overthrown; then they can seek out our help. See the American Revolution.
2. That's like saying I haven't had a broken bone in 7 years because I started taking asprin regularly 5 years ago. Correlation does not equal causation, and there's a conspicuous lack of evidence tying Iraq to 9/11.
3. A "stronghold" that's costing hundreds of American lives to maintain for no apparent meritorious purpose. Whatever cognizable benefit this "stronghold" provides does not outweigh the human cost to maintain it. Furthermore, last I checked, it was Afghanistan that was the "hotbed of terrorism" with which we were concerned, not the Middle East.
4. A democracy that apparently nobody in Iraq wants.
5. Terror cells were not coming from there to fight us here, so I don't see how this fighting is a good thing.
6. So the logic is that, in order to be best prepared for a conflict in Iran, we should enter a conflict with Iraq? Whatever fortuitous position we may be in with regard to Iran does not justify the initial decision to enter Iraq. It is possible that a conflict with Iran would not be so inevitable if we had not chosen to create a conflict with Iraq.

Quote:
Seems to me that things are in good shape. So in a way, we are both ignorant to the details of the war in Iraq so as we are left to our perceptions. Mine look much brighter than yours.

Yeah, apparently. This is what leads me to question the breadth and quality of your perception.

PirateFan13 wrote:
Policy and politics are how we establish war, but once it is declared, the military should be given every resource to complete the mission swiftly. The war in Iraq and the war in Vietnam are similiar in retrospect based upon the concern to "appease" everyone instead of get the job done.

But what if we don't know what the mission is? Shouldn't we know what the damn mission is?

And, assuming we actually know what the mission is, what if we decide later that the mission is not a good one to complete? What if we think that the war we started is unjustified? Are we not allowed to change our minds? And should government not be responsive to the people if we do change our minds? Must we complete a task that we know would be a mistake to complete?

You're basically saying that the military should be given a blank check to pursue whatever goals it deems worthy. I don't agree with that assertion at all, especially when we think that those goals are poor ones to pursue.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:15 pm 
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For those who believe in Palin or the Republican Party as it exists today, I suggest you read George Will, David Broder, David Brooks, Peggy Noonan, and others who are all conservative republicans. To a person they believe that we have entered a new era and the future of the Republican Party is a dire need of adjustment. It has in their opinions become the party of yesterday.
Read, don't read, you choose. The Washington Post, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal all can be read on-line for free.These and many other writers are featured in these papers.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
For those who believe in Palin or the Republican Party as it exists today, I suggest you read George Will, David Broder, David Brooks, Peggy Noonan, and others who are all conservative republicans...


If you want to understand the conservative part of the Republican party, you don't read those at all. These represent the Blue Blood, Upper West Side of NY and the dinner party crowd of K street.

They do not represent the conservative movement to any great degree. If you want to see what Palin means to the conservative wing, just go to one of her campaign stops, and see the crowds, and how they react.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:43 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Substitute2 wrote:
For those who believe in Palin or the Republican Party as it exists today, I suggest you read George Will, David Broder, David Brooks, Peggy Noonan, and others who are all conservative republicans...


If you want to understand the conservative part of the Republican party, you don't read those at all. These represent the Blue Blood, Upper West Side of NY and the dinner party crowd of K street.

They do not represent the conservative movement to any great degree. If you want to see what Palin means to the conservative wing, just go to one of her campaign stops, and see the crowds, and how they react.

I've seen the people at one of these campaign stops. It reminds me that bigotry and fear are alive and well in this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:50 pm 
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Read Kathleen Parker another conservative writer in the Washington Post today.

These writers that I have referenced are all highly respected and very well paid writers who have all written several books. They are not a small group of radical right wingers. They are the most respected of the conservative movement. They are the Republican Party. PLease don't indicate that the the haters who scream 'U S A' as if they are the only Americans who love their country are the torch barrers of the Republicans. The 'you batchas' aren't the real people they proport to be. At least they are not the majority as shown on election day.

If the Republican Party stays where they are now, they will never win another presidency because they are becoming a regional not national party. That region as indicated in the last election is most of the south and some low populated western states. Not enough to win.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Nauseating
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:03 am 
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Substitute2 wrote:
Read Kathleen Parker another conservative writer in the Washington Post today.

These writers that I have referenced are all highly respected and very well paid writers who have all written several books. They are not a small group of radical right wingers...


No, they are not, as Palin is not.

ZM

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