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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:00 pm 
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There should be no question that Sarah Palin got white male votes because of her plumimg. At the same time she clearly lost votes of white women because she was seen as the dumb but sexy broad, and because her views were clearly not the views of most women. If you want Hilary's votes, you need to have Hilary's views.

By the way, I meant no rubbing in of Republicans. If I came off that way, I apologize. I meant to try to indicate the need to work together for the betterment of all of us. My disgust with the hate spreaders brought out the worst in my writing. I see no benefit in listening to people who are getting rich by working on people's fears and hating.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:17 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Even during McCain's speech lastnight his supporters were still booing and yelling negative things after the election was called.


That bugged me last night too. What bush league supporters. How can you boo at that moment in time?

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:22 pm 
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One of the best things about ending the campaigning is the abortion issue will now go away for two years when the next election approaches. It's become the bi-annual issue. The GOP trots it out for votes every election.

Note that they have done nothing about it except to claim that they oppose it. Why? If it goes away, they lose a large number of one issue voters who if they look at Republicans in the light of non-abortion, they would see clearly that the GOP really offers them nothing of what they really want. Where are they on Christian issues like poverty? immagrants? the death penalty? unjust war? The answer is that they are not very Christian are they?

So, they will always bring it up and tell the religious right that they oppose it. When will we ever see through this facade?

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:28 am 
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Willton wrote:
Feel free to point out the last terrorist activity Bill Ayers has conducted in the last 30 years.


My lord, what kind of defense is that? Oh, I know you blew up some people a few years ago. I know you don't apologize for it. I know you wish you could do more, and I know that you publically state today that you would still do such a deed. But, hey it was thirty years ago.

Not a high point for you Wilton. A real kool aid moment there.


Quote:
Please, the larger group should gain some perspective. Obama's history with a "known terrorist" deals with an education reform movement in the 1990's and a campaign contribution in 2001. There is very little evidence that Ayers and Obama had a close relationship. Further, whatever violent acts Ayers conducted while a radical activist occured in the 60's and early 70's while Obama was a mere child. Obama has publicly denounced Ayers's past violent conduct on more than one occasion.


Bullcrap. He's unrepentant. And, please explain his good buddy from the PLO?

Quote:
It is absolutely absurd to say that Obama's relationship with Ayers = Obama is a terrorist. Those that think so are indeed "nutballs."


Oo. Oo. Strawman alert. Even when told that is not the case, you still try to go there. Incredible.

We are debating his governance and whom is apologetic toward. Not that BHO is a terrorist.

Continuing with Wilton's worst defense ever.


Quote:
Given the downward spiral this country has traveled over the last 8 years and the great approval Bill Clinton had during his presidency, I have a little less cynicism than that. The Democratic party has its problems, but that doesn't mean it has no solutions.
[/quote][/quote]

Really Ok, so polls make your day. I see.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:27 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
My lord, what kind of defense is that? Oh, I know you blew up some people a few years ago. I know you don't apologize for it. I know you wish you could do more, and I know that you publically state today that you would still do such a deed. But, hey it was thirty years ago.

Not a high point for you Wilton. A real kool aid moment there.

ZM, the point is that during the time Obama knew Ayers, Ayers was not conducting violent activities - he was working to reform education. Obama did not know Ayers as a terrorist, so it is not fair to say that Obama would be apologetic to terrorists based on that.

Further, calling Ayers "a known terrorist" is like calling George W. Bush "a known cocaine user." While these people may have done these things in the past, labels such as these suggest that they are currently conducting these activities (destroying public buildings or snorting cocaine) or will do so in the future. That is not the case with either person.

ZelieMike wrote:
Quote:
Please, the larger group should gain some perspective. Obama's history with a "known terrorist" deals with an education reform movement in the 1990's and a campaign contribution in 2001. There is very little evidence that Ayers and Obama had a close relationship. Further, whatever violent acts Ayers conducted while a radical activist occured in the 60's and early 70's while Obama was a mere child. Obama has publicly denounced Ayers's past violent conduct on more than one occasion.

Bullcrap. He's unrepentant. And, please explain his good buddy from the PLO?

Bullcrap? What's bullcrap?

Unrepentent? Why should Obama repent for acts he did not commit?

And who the f*** is the PLO, and who is this "buddy?"

ZelieMike wrote:
Quote:
Given the downward spiral this country has traveled over the last 8 years and the great approval Bill Clinton had during his presidency, I have a little less cynicism than that. The Democratic party has its problems, but that doesn't mean it has no solutions.


Really Ok, so polls make your day. I see.

ZM

I take it you think this country has been on the up-and-up over the past 8 years?

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:51 am 
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Wow. ZelieMike has a taste for red herring. Imagine that.

Perhaps he'd like to comment on John McCain's "unrepentant" association with convicted Omega 7 serial bomber Eduardo Arocena, or Sarah Palin's "pallin' around" with the staunchly anti-American Mark Chryson and his Alaskan Independence Party.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Polls mean absolutely nothing! On a day to day basis my life has flourished in the past eight years. I'm not easily influenced by the media that says the country is doom and gloom. Does it suck that gas went up? Yep. Does the war suck? Yep. Does the market suck? Yep. Did one man do all this all by himself? Some of you think that's the case. People fail to realize that the ball is rolling for the next four years. If the world were to somehow turn around and all was great on February 9, 2009, you know who would get all the credit? Obama.

If it were 80 degrees and sunny outside right now and the news stations told everyone how cold it is, people would be bundling up and lighting their fireplaces.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:15 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Wow. ZelieMike has a taste for red herring. Imagine that.

Perhaps he'd like to comment on John McCain's "unrepentant" association with convicted Omega 7 serial bomber Eduardo Arocena, or Sarah Palin's "pallin' around" with the staunchly anti-American Mark Chryson and his Alaskan Independence Party.


Not red herring, and not the same.

First, the simply wrong. Palin and hte AIP has been shown to be simply false. You can open any publication and read it. Palin's "association" was a one-time speech to the party that virtually all politicians in Alaska make. That is not 20 years of working together, or starting your political career in there offices.

I am not at all happy that McCain hangs with La Raza and I question some of his decisions regarding immigration that stems from such. Much like I question Obama's decisions related to Ayers.

Ragarding Obama

Quote:
Unrepentent? Why should Obama repent for acts he did not commit?

And who the f*** is the PLO, and who is this "buddy?"


Not Obama. I have said again and again that I don't consider him a terrorist, an Islamist or a commie pinko. I question his judgement for hang'n with them and wonder what ideology stems from that, and where it would lead his decisions. Like I question McCain for hanging with La Raza, an organization that still believes Texas, NM, AZ, NV and Cali all belong to Mexico.

Ayers is unrepentant. Dorn is unrepentant and Dorn is guilty of murder by setting the bombs at the police station that killed officers. That makes Ayers an accomplish as best I know. No statute of limitations on that, now is there.

The PLO. Rashid Kalili (sp?). Spokesman for Yassir Arafat in the US when the PLO was labeled a terrorist org, and was blowing up women and kids willy nilly. He was/is a professor at Columbia and his rantings about Jews and the west can easily be googled.

You can go and read this yourself in the LA Times. A nice full article, and balanced. And, Kalili is no "guy in the neighborhood". He's a long time friend.

Its not that Obama was a kid when some of this stuff went on. It's that he feels just fine being buddies with them NOW, as an adult. Even knowing their background and current politics.

You say Ayers is just an educator in Chicago. What is he teaching?

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Willton wrote:
And who the f*** is the PLO, and who is this "buddy?"


The PLO is the Palestinian Liberation Organization. Probably the most recognized leader of that organization during its existence was Yassar Arafat. Mahmoud Abbas is the current leader. And the alleged "buddy" is a former law school teacher colleague of Obama's who is allegedly a PLO sympathizer and alleged spokesperson for the PLO in America. During the last few weeks of the campaign there were a lot of stories about Obama attending this "buddy's" going away party - he was headed to Columbia to be a law professor and the LA Times reportedly has a videotape of Obama speaking at the going away party and there is speculation that the tape may have Obama making positive comments about his "buddy's" efforts as spokesperson for the PLO. The LA Times would not release the tape claiming that the "source" demanded that it not be produced.

Clearly, the implication of this "friendship," "professional relationship" is that Obama will be sympathetic to the Palestinians in their fight with Israel and that Obama is supportive of the PLO's terroristic activities in the past. During the last week of the campaign, Palin was particularly vocal about "how nice it must be to have a paper of the size of the LA Times protecting Obama."

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:33 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You say Ayers is just an educator in Chicago. What is he teaching? ZM


Ask and ye shall receive: http://education.uic.edu/directory/facu ... tid=bayers

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:44 pm 
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Re: Rashid Khalidi - Here is the April 2008 story in the LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 5251.story

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:09 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
First, the simply wrong. Palin and hte AIP has been shown to be simply false. You can open any publication and read it. Palin's "association" was a one-time speech to the party that virtually all politicians in Alaska make. That is not 20 years of working together, or starting your political career in there offices.

Sez you. Todd Palin was a card-carryin', gun-runnin', fire-breathin' AIP member for 7 years. Chrysom himself claims that Ms. Palin was present and accounted for at their 1994 convention. This was hardly community organizing in someone's living room in Oak Park.

Somehow I can't imagine you being so blithely dismissive if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in its cause, and if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago ("God bless ya and keep up the good work!").

Sorry, but if you want to play the guilt-by-association game, McCain-Palin loses worse than they did Tuesday night.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:51 pm 
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LtCol Kojak Slaphead wrote:
Sez you. Todd Palin was a card-carryin', gun-runnin', fire-breathin' AIP member for 7 years. Chrysom himself claims that Ms. Palin was present and accounted for at their 1994 convention. This was hardly community organizing in someone's living room in Oak Park.


No, sez any number of publications. Main stream or not. I acknowledged that Palin, like virtually every Alaskan poiltician had addressed them. Todd Palin wasn't running for anything that I know of.

There was no community organizing in the living room. It was the introduction to politics. Not a one time association, but a culmination of years of working together.

Quote:
Somehow I can't imagine you being so blithely dismissive if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in its cause, and if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago ("God bless ya and keep up the good work!").


I am not dismissive of it. It has been shown to be nothing but what you can try to equivicate.

Quote:
Sorry, but if you want to play the guilt-by-association game, McCain-Palin loses worse than they did Tuesday night.


Not even close. Try as you might, you can't take one speech and translate that to years of close association and funnelling millions of dollars to programs.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:02 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
The PLO is the Palestinian Liberation Organization. Probably the most recognized leader of that organization during its existence was Yassar Arafat. Mahmoud Abbas is the current leader. And the alleged "buddy" is a former law school teacher colleague of Obama's who is allegedly a PLO sympathizer and alleged spokesperson for the PLO in America..."


thanks for the post. I would posit only that "alleged" is not the case. He is/was Arafats mouthpiece and is more than an "alleged" buddy, as shown in the article posted.

What does it mean, if anything? We'll see. What Obama's backers rely on, lacking any substantial political record beyond who he has associated and aligned himself with over the years, is his word.

I'm ok with that. He is the POTUS and he will lead as he sees fit. If I disagree with what he is proposing, I'll call my representative and tell him/her how I think they should vote.

I just feel that I, and even his supporters across the country, simply do not know much about him at all and still don't beyond what he has said in a campaign for office. Most of which contradicts what little we do know of his past actions.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Fair questions to ask?

What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, following the debate, including a three month-old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?

What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his college
graduating class?

What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?

What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?

What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?

What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?

What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?

What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter?

What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?

What if Obama was the one who was known to publicly display a serious anger management problem?

What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution?

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:55 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Fair questions to ask?


Yes. If they tell you something about the candidate in the absence of any kind of record. Looking over this, most have been asked, and many are addressed in substantial NYT pieces and such.

Quote:
What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, following the debate, including a three month-old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?


What pol doesn't? Its second only to kissing babies on the trail. In point of fact, the only pol I notice that DOESN'T want the family or VP in the spotlight is Obama. I have never seen an empty POTUS podium for an acceptance speech like that, ever.

Quote:
What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?


Then I'd like to see something he authored.

Quote:
What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his college
graduating class?


Just ask dubya how this one is handled.

Quote:
What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?


Chapter and verse written on this, including by McCain himself.

Quote:
What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?


See above.

Quote:
What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?


See NYT article for how this is dealt with in the press.

Quote:
What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?


Then Harvard would have lowered their standards? I jest, I jest!

Quote:
What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?


Then he would have gone to public trial, and been rebuked and censured by congress after a lengthy congressional ethics probe?

Quote:
What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter?


What's the differance between a bulldog and a community organizer? The community organizer has a jump shot!

Quote:
What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?


He would be parroted endlessly in brilliant comedic skits on the Jon Stewart show.

Quote:
What if Obama was the one who was known to publicly display a serious anger management problem?


That would have hurt his campaign by playing into stereotype. Much like the incessent drumbeat of "unstable" that eminated from the BHO campaign this fall.

Quote:
What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution?


Then we would have heard a lot about the Kennedy, er Heinz, er Obama compound or the numerous houses McC... er Obama owned.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:19 am 
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ZelieMike wrote:
No, sez any number of publications. Main stream or not. I acknowledged that Palin, like virtually every Alaskan poiltician had addressed them. Todd Palin wasn't running for anything that I know of.

Thanks, Mike. I checked out any number of publications, and prettily easily found this article

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/ ... n_chryson/

at salon.com (mainstream to me; perhaps not to you) that not only makes the case that Ms. Palin and the AIP were on fairly cozy terms, but that — if ranking AIP members are to be believed — they orchestrated her winning mayoral run in Wasilla in 1996, including teaching her how to run a racially-charged smear campaign.

Quote:
Indeed, Chryson boasted that he and his allies urged Palin to focus her campaign on slashing character-based attacks. For instance, Chryson advised Palin to paint Stein as a sexist who had told her "to just sit there and look pretty" while she served on Wasilla's City Council. Though Palin never made this accusation, her 1996 campaign for mayor was the most negative Wasilla residents had ever witnessed.

While Palin played up her total opposition to the sales tax and gun control -- the two hobgoblins of the AIP -- mailers spread throughout the town portraying her as "the Christian candidate," a subtle suggestion that Stein, who is Lutheran, might be Jewish. "I watched that campaign unfold, bringing a level of slime our community hadn't seen until then," recalled Phil Munger, a local music teacher who counts himself as a close friend of Stein.

"This same group [Stoll and Chryson] also [publicly] challenged me on whether my wife and I were married because she had kept her maiden name," Stein bitterly recalled. "So we literally had to produce a marriage certificate. And as I recall, they said, 'Well, you could have forged that.'"


Quote:
There was no community organizing in the living room. It was the introduction to politics. Not a one time association, but a culmination of years of working together.

Kind of like Palin and the AIP?

Quote:
I am not dismissive of it. It has been shown to be nothing but what you can try to equivicate.

I'm not equivocating anything. If you can't, or choose not to see the parallel, then I really can't help you.

Quote:
Not even close. Try as you might, you can't take one speech and translate that to years of close association and funnelling millions of dollars to programs.

A) It was substantially more than just "one speech."
B) You forgot to factor in McCain's unsavory relationships with the NCLR, WACL, Rev. John Hagee, the Keating 5 and various right-wing paramilitary Cuban exile groups, including Omega 7. But thanks for the misrepresentation anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:50 pm 
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Quote:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/ ... n_chryson/

at salon.com (mainstream to me; perhaps not to you) that not only makes the case that Ms. Palin and the AIP were on fairly cozy terms, but that — if ranking AIP members are to be believed — they orchestrated her winning mayoral run in Wasilla in 1996, including teaching her how to run a racially-charged smear campaign.


Quote:
Indeed, Chryson boasted that he and his allies urged Palin to focus her campaign on slashing character-based attacks. For instance, Chryson advised Palin to paint Stein as a sexist who had told her "to just sit there and look pretty" while she served on Wasilla's City Council. Though Palin never made this accusation, her 1996 campaign for mayor was the most negative Wasilla residents had ever witnessed.

While Palin played up her total opposition to the sales tax and gun control -- the two hobgoblins of the AIP -- mailers spread throughout the town portraying her as "the Christian candidate," a subtle suggestion that Stein, who is Lutheran, might be Jewish. "I watched that campaign unfold, bringing a level of slime our community hadn't seen until then," recalled Phil Munger, a local music teacher who counts himself as a close friend of Stein.

"This same group [Stoll and Chryson] also [publicly] challenged me on whether my wife and I were married because she had kept her maiden name," Stein bitterly recalled. "So we literally had to produce a marriage certificate. And as I recall, they said, 'Well, you could have forged that.'"



In a Salon article entitled "Palin's Un-American Activities". I suppose that passes as mainstream in this election cycle.

Let's try more mainstream places like ABC, CNN and others, all that investigated and found out that she was never a member of the AIP, lending the lye to Chrysom and elminating any credibilty he has in "boasting" about anything. The other piece of "evidence" comes from disgruntled friends of the losing mayor. I'm sure they love Palin.

These outlets show that Palins' "speech" was a video sent to the AIP, and a visit when they held their convention in Wasilla when she was mayor.

AIP may be a hard ass right wing group of ultra-independants that want to get away from everyone, but they are a registered party and the third largest in the state. In short, if you are in politics in AK you have to deal with them. Just like I'm sure that if you are a South Chicago Pol, you have to deal with groups like ACORN and Wright's church.

I'm also pretty sure that AIP hasn't blown up police stations and the Pentagon.

I'll also be glad if Obama consents to the scrutiny, ethics committee investigation, criminal investigation, and congressional censure that McCain did for the Keating 5. Investigations that found him innocent of crime, BTW. How many millions has McCain funneled to those other guys?

In summary, you have a record with McCain. Its 20 years long. You know he has always pissed off his own party, and others. He has always tried to reform institutions (badly in a couple instances, IMO). With the POTUS-elect, we don't know anything other than who he says he is, and who he has associated with over his political career.

At least now he can show us by action.

I hope he suceeds in leading this country to a better place.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:14 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
I'm also pretty sure that AIP hasn't blown up police stations and the Pentagon.

Surely not. But people with beliefs similar/sympathetic to the AIP's have blown up federal buildings, abortion clinics and gay nightclubs, and in general are responsible for far more bloodshed and mayhem on American soil than the Weather Underground or any other boogeyman of the New Left.

Show me one shred of evidence that Mr. Obama has ever advocated or praised any of the above actions, and I'll start to question his relationship with Bill Ayers, too.

ZelieMike wrote:
I hope he suceeds in leading this country to a better place.

Well, at least here we're in agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: Republican Party
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:40 pm 
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It doesn't surprise that we are concerned with character issues in our President. What bothers me most is that both candidates are pretty decent people and there are so many lies and wild claims that take on a life of there own. Why are we so obsessed with trying to rip the other guy so much that by the time the we elect, we have a wounded leader that half of us don't trust at all.

It is a flaw that has been here in this thread. Boys, let's remember that we are each of us Americans and want our country to do well.

I'm not a fan of Palin but it is not because of character. It is that she doesn't have the basic knowledge of national and world affairs. She simply couldn't be entrusted with the power of the Presidency.

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