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 Post subject: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Shame, shame, shame on the whole administration. Some egos (mainly the President) are taking a hit here. Clean house from the Prez all the way down to Joe Pa and his staff.

This article on SI says it all.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/11/07/pennst.scandal/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:03 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Shame, shame, shame on the whole administration. Some egos (mainly the President) are taking a hit here. Clean house from the Prez all the way down to Joe Pa and his staff.

This article on SI says it all.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/11/07/pennst.scandal/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2


Shame indeed, but lets be careful to not redirect all the anger and disgust away from the person who deserves it: Jerry Sandusky. PSU did not commit any crime here (nor is there much evidence of any coverup), their guilt lies on a moral level. There are always complex circumstances regarding the witnessing/reporting of a crime by family and friends, its never black and white. Of course something should have been done back in 2002 and that decision will likely cost Spanier, Joe, and others their jobs, but lets not demonize the wrong people. Its tempting for society to point the finger in many directions when a heinous crime is committed, but the pereptrator is solely responsible for his actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Shame, shame, shame on the whole administration. Some egos (mainly the President) are taking a hit here. Clean house from the Prez all the way down to Joe Pa and his staff.

This article on SI says it all.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/11/07/pennst.scandal/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2


Shame indeed, but lets be careful to not redirect all the anger and disgust away from the person who deserves it: Jerry Sandusky. PSU did not commit any crime here (nor is there much evidence of any coverup), their guilt lies on a moral level. There are always complex circumstances regarding the witnessing/reporting of a crime by family and friends, its never black and white. Of course something should have been done back in 2002 and that decision will likely cost Spanier, Joe, and others their jobs, but lets not demonize the wrong people. Its tempting for society to point the finger in many directions when a heinous crime is committed, but the pereptrator is solely responsible for his actions.


That's a given. Nobody is defending what he is accused of. But the others to turn the other cheek when they could have prevented it is not defensible.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:35 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Shame, shame, shame on the whole administration. Some egos (mainly the President) are taking a hit here. Clean house from the Prez all the way down to Joe Pa and his staff.

This article on SI says it all.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/11/07/pennst.scandal/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2


Shame indeed, but lets be careful to not redirect all the anger and disgust away from the person who deserves it: Jerry Sandusky. PSU did not commit any crime here (nor is there much evidence of any coverup), their guilt lies on a moral level. There are always complex circumstances regarding the witnessing/reporting of a crime by family and friends, its never black and white. Of course something should have been done back in 2002 and that decision will likely cost Spanier, Joe, and others their jobs, but lets not demonize the wrong people. Its tempting for society to point the finger in many directions when a heinous crime is committed, but the pereptrator is solely responsible for his actions.


That's a given. Nobody is defending what he is accused of. But the others to turn the other cheek when they could have prevented it is not defensible.


True, but its also not nearly the same type of offense. Many people are guilty of crimes of omission.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:20 pm 
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I've read the same thing about the Catholic Church for years and my reaction to PSU's "inaction" is the same: disgust. I do not buy - for a single minute - that administrators at PSU bear no level of culpability.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:44 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I've read the same thing about the Catholic Church for years and my reaction to PSU's "inaction" is the same: disgust. I do not buy - for a single minute - that administrators at PSU bear no level of culpability.


PSU is no more culpable than the victims of the crime. The crime was committed by Jerry Sandusky, not PSU and nearly all of the assults occured away from campus in no association to PSU.

Don't get me wrong, the whistle shoudl have been blown in 2002 and the cops should have been alerted. The nature of the PSU admins job dictates that student safety at the college and the non-profit that they supported is the number one priority. These guys deserve to lose jobs over this, but their behavior is far removed from the actual crime.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Seriously? PSU conducts an investigation of Sandusky in 1998 and, in a phone conversation, Sandusky admits to engaging in inappropriate conduct with a child in a shower. Yet, PSU allows Sandusky to conduct activities on-campus with children for years after that? After Sandusky was forced to resign because of this conduct? Explain to me how PSU administrators is no more culpable than the 10 year old who was anally raped. Portraying PSU as nothing other than a victim here is nauseating.

For years after 1998 when Sandusky admitted to engaging in improper conduct with children, PSU's administration allowed a freaking pedophile to use their campus and to interact with children. As of 2007, Sandusky continued to bring children on campus to football practices. As of last week, Sandusky was still allowed to use on campus facilities - after McCreary observed Sandusky anally raping a 10 year old.

If I offer my house to a known pedophile to host Cub Scout meetings . . . I'm providing a means to have that person engage in heinous acts. I simply do not buy the argument that "I didn't rape; therefore I am without blame" argument. It is absolutely disgusting to me that anyone would attempt to portray PSU's administrators as having zero level of culpability here.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:32 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Seriously? PSU conducts an investigation of Sandusky in 1998 and, in a phone conversation, Sandusky admits to engaging in inappropriate conduct with a child in a shower. Yet, PSU allows Sandusky to conduct activities on-campus with children for years after that? After Sandusky was forced to resign because of this conduct? Explain to me how PSU administrators is no more culpable than the 10 year old who was anally raped. Portraying PSU as nothing other than a victim here is nauseating.

For years after 1998 when Sandusky admitted to engaging in improper conduct with children, PSU's administration allowed a freaking pedophile to use their campus and to interact with children. As of 2007, Sandusky continued to bring children on campus to football practices. As of last week, Sandusky was still allowed to use on campus facilities - after McCreary observed Sandusky anally raping a 10 year old.

If I offer my house to a known pedophile to host Cub Scout meetings . . . I'm providing a means to have that person engage in heinous acts. I simply do not buy the argument that "I didn't rape; therefore I am without blame" argument. It is absolutely disgusting to me that anyone would attempt to portray PSU's administrators as having zero level of culpability here.


This is the classic "its everyone else's fault excpet the perpetrator" that is so common in the US legal system. You really think that Jerry Sandusky stops raping kids if PSU locks him off campus in 1998? He simply finds another way to go about his business. Sandusky was not raping PSU students, your analogy doesn't hold. Sandusky simply chose to use the campus facility for his acts, the acts were not related to PSU business.

I am not making PSU to be a victim, my statement is that they are no more culbable. You could argue that Sandusky would have been caught years ago if a victim had come forward to police, the same argument that PSU could have come forward.

I have no issue with the disgust towards PSU, they should have come forward, but the villain here is clearly distinguishable from the PSU administrators.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:35 pm 
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I bring a perspective to this discussion that may be different from the others here, in that I was in the same graduating class (1963) with Sandusky, later worked with the football program at Penn State's TV station (where I helped to produce Paterno's weekly show in '68 and '69), and finally occasionally covered football there as a newspaper reporter. While I didn't know Sandusky personally, I was in a fraternity full of scholarship football players and would see him once in a while at our parties. I've also received solicitations in the mail from him to contribute to the Second Mile Foundation that he started while still an assistant coach.

My wife and I even took a Penn State Alumni Association trip to Europe a few years ago that was led by the vice-president who's involved in this, Gary Schultz.

These allegations are sickening -- just horrifying. I'm deeply saddened for the victims, and if a jury finds Sandusky guilty, he should die in prison. But let no one think that this scandal came out of the blue. What I find hardest to believe is that Joe could have built up total control over the program over the years and not known what Sandusky was up to.

Well, that, and the fact that no one in law-enforcement apparently was involved until comparatively recently. Suspicions about him have been lurking in the weeds for a long time despite the fact that he's a husband and father in his own right. In fact, his son, E.J., was the starting center on the Penn State football team in the early '90s and now is offensive line coach at West Chester Univ.

I don't see how the fallout can result in anything other than a clean sweep at University Park. I predict the board of trustees will remove Graham Spanier as president, Schultz as vice-president, Tim Curley as AD, and Joe as head football coach. (I think this was going to be his last year anyway.) I also don't know how Mike McQueary can survive as an assistant coach. And if Joe goes, so does his son, Jay, the QB coach. No new head coach, especially one hired from outside the university, is going to want to be saddled with that legacy. Other assistant coaches will be finished there as well, such as Dick Anderson and Galen Hall (both of whom are contemporaries of Sandusky).

Overcoming this is going to take a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Seriously? PSU conducts an investigation of Sandusky in 1998 and, in a phone conversation, Sandusky admits to engaging in inappropriate conduct with a child in a shower. Yet, PSU allows Sandusky to conduct activities on-campus with children for years after that? After Sandusky was forced to resign because of this conduct? Explain to me how PSU administrators is no more culpable than the 10 year old who was anally raped. Portraying PSU as nothing other than a victim here is nauseating.

For years after 1998 when Sandusky admitted to engaging in improper conduct with children, PSU's administration allowed a freaking pedophile to use their campus and to interact with children. As of 2007, Sandusky continued to bring children on campus to football practices. As of last week, Sandusky was still allowed to use on campus facilities - after McCreary observed Sandusky anally raping a 10 year old.

If I offer my house to a known pedophile to host Cub Scout meetings . . . I'm providing a means to have that person engage in heinous acts. I simply do not buy the argument that "I didn't rape; therefore I am without blame" argument. It is absolutely disgusting to me that anyone would attempt to portray PSU's administrators as having zero level of culpability here.


This is the classic "its everyone else's fault excpet the perpetrator" that is so common in the US legal system. You really think that Jerry Sandusky stops raping kids if PSU locks him off campus in 1998? He simply finds another way to go about his business. Sandusky was not raping PSU students, your analogy doesn't hold. Sandusky simply chose to use the campus facility for his acts, the acts were not related to PSU business.

I am not making PSU to be a victim, my statement is that they are no more culbable. You could argue that Sandusky would have been caught years ago if a victim had come forward to police, the same argument that PSU could have come forward.

I have no issue with the disgust towards PSU, they should have come forward, but the villain here is clearly distinguishable from the PSU administrators.


First of all, a victim did come forward back in '98 but nothing seemed to come of that police investigation. Second, do you realize how hard it is for a kid to come to grips with what is happening to him? Coming forward is not easy.

Penn St and it's officials and coaches lack of action is deplorable. Anyone with a moral compass and a brain reports these offenses. And you don't think there is a cover up? They kept their mouths shut to protect the almighty football program and its legendary coach. Heck they even threw McQueary a bone by giving him a job to keep his mouth shut. To hell with the victims...gotta keep the program in the same light it's always been held.

Sure Sandusky should fry. And nobody is trying to say he isn't the villain. But the only thing Penn St did was to tell him not to bring kids on campus. In other words go rape them at your house, in the park, wherever...just don't do it here. Disgusting and disgraceful. They will all go down, and rightfully so.


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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:28 pm 
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Penn State officials put the football program ahead of the victims. End of story. If they reported Sandusky when this happened back in 1998, he might have been in jail back then and victims might have been spared.

But they didn't want the program tarnished.

Yes, Sandusky committed the actual crimes, but whoever knew about it and didn't do anything about it (McQueary, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, Spanier) are morally bankrupt.

And they all keep passing the buck. I reported it to my superior. Well, guess what? Spanier can't use that excuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:30 am 
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Yes Sandusky committed the crimes but how many could have been prevented if Joe Pa or others had gone to the police? The problem was and is that they put Penn State Football ahead of those kids. Shame on them all.

When the Catholic Church had the same problem, it took years to get the higher ups to be resigned. Same deal here. It should not take even a week to get the enablers out now!

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
Seriously? PSU conducts an investigation of Sandusky in 1998 and, in a phone conversation, Sandusky admits to engaging in inappropriate conduct with a child in a shower. Yet, PSU allows Sandusky to conduct activities on-campus with children for years after that? After Sandusky was forced to resign because of this conduct? Explain to me how PSU administrators is no more culpable than the 10 year old who was anally raped. Portraying PSU as nothing other than a victim here is nauseating.

For years after 1998 when Sandusky admitted to engaging in improper conduct with children, PSU's administration allowed a freaking pedophile to use their campus and to interact with children. As of 2007, Sandusky continued to bring children on campus to football practices. As of last week, Sandusky was still allowed to use on campus facilities - after McCreary observed Sandusky anally raping a 10 year old.

If I offer my house to a known pedophile to host Cub Scout meetings . . . I'm providing a means to have that person engage in heinous acts. I simply do not buy the argument that "I didn't rape; therefore I am without blame" argument. It is absolutely disgusting to me that anyone would attempt to portray PSU's administrators as having zero level of culpability here.


This is the classic "its everyone else's fault excpet the perpetrator" that is so common in the US legal system. You really think that Jerry Sandusky stops raping kids if PSU locks him off campus in 1998? He simply finds another way to go about his business. Sandusky was not raping PSU students, your analogy doesn't hold. Sandusky simply chose to use the campus facility for his acts, the acts were not related to PSU business.

I am not making PSU to be a victim, my statement is that they are no more culbable. You could argue that Sandusky would have been caught years ago if a victim had come forward to police, the same argument that PSU could have come forward.

I have no issue with the disgust towards PSU, they should have come forward, but the villain here is clearly distinguishable from the PSU administrators.


I call "bullshit."

You can't find a single sentence that I (or anyone else) have written that suggests that "its everyone else's fault except the perpetrator." Not even close. I have yet to read one solitary sentence from any writer who suggests anything remotely close to arguing that Sandusky isn't an evil doer.

You fall back on a very tired theme . . . blame the legal system. Damning PSU officials for their actions has nothing to do with what is "legal" or "not legal." Its about doing the right thing; its about being a decent human being. Its about not running away from Jerry Sandusky when he is anally raping a 10 year old simply because Sandusky is affiliated with the PSU football program. What if McQuery found a janitor raping a 10 year old? You think that he would have hesitated for a second to intervene and beat the crap out of the janitor? Its about knowingly providing access to PSU facilities for years to Sandusky who has admitted to inappropriate contact with children when you know that he'll be in contact with children - after forcing Sandusky to retire when he admitted to fondling a kid in the showers. This isn't about the law. This isn't about lawyers. This isn't about absolving Sandusky. This is about decency. This is about common sense. This is about protecting children.

Plain and simple, it appears that numerous PSU officials chose to turn a blind eye because of (1) Sandusky's history with PSU; (2) potential embarassment to the program; (3) potential embarassment to JoePa. They chose to protect a pedophile and knowingly allowed a pedophile to use their facilities for years. They may not be criminally culpable but they are certainly morally culpable and I'm willing to bet that a settlement fund has been created because PSU's lawyers know damn well that they will be civilly culpable as well. My practice is primary devoted to defending manufacturers and employers and I preach the "personal responsibility" theme all the time. But, frankly, in light of what was known by PSU's officials in 1998, Jerry Sandusky shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the PSU's campus. The fact that PSU not only allowed it but seemed to encourage it is incredibly stupid and damning.

And . . . no . . . Jerry Sandusky wouldn't magically stop being a deviant if PSU banned him from campus but that is not a license to stick your head in the sand and essentially conclude "we know that you are sexually attracted to children, you're going to rape them one way or the other, so you might as well do it here on campus with young children who are attending football camps."

Finally, any suggestion that places the same level of culpability on the failure of a 10 year old to come forward to report that he has been forcefully sodomized by an adult as adults who (1) knew Sandusky was a sexual predator and (2) saw him sodomize a 10 year old is patently ridiculous. I'll be waiting for JoePa to use that one . . . "if only other victims had come forward before 2002, we would have never been in a situation where we kept our mouths shot about the forceful raping of a 10 year old."

Sorry . . . but I have kids and there is no excuse for this type of conduct. None. If it was my daughter involved in one of these situations, I'd been on a plane to PSU and personally beaten the living crap out of these moral-less pieces of crap. Honestly . . . a program built on the notion that it is trying to develop young men . . . it is the ultimate hypocrisy. They deserve every bit of harsh scrutiny.

And, yes, there will be a special place in hell for Sandusky.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:07 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Penn State officials put the football program ahead of the victims. End of story. If they reported Sandusky when this happened back in 1998, he might have been in jail back then and victims might have been spared.

But they didn't want the program tarnished.

Yes, Sandusky committed the actual crimes, but whoever knew about it and didn't do anything about it (McQueary, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, Spanier) are morally bankrupt.

And they all keep passing the buck. I reported it to my superior. Well, guess what? Spanier can't use that excuse.

Here's my question: at what point do you stop saying "I'm reporting it to my superior" and instead say "I'm reporting it to the police"? Why must the reporting of a crime go up the chain of command before the proper authorities are involved?

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Willton wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Penn State officials put the football program ahead of the victims. End of story. If they reported Sandusky when this happened back in 1998, he might have been in jail back then and victims might have been spared.

But they didn't want the program tarnished.

Yes, Sandusky committed the actual crimes, but whoever knew about it and didn't do anything about it (McQueary, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, Spanier) are morally bankrupt.

And they all keep passing the buck. I reported it to my superior. Well, guess what? Spanier can't use that excuse.

Here's my question: at what point do you stop saying "I'm reporting it to my superior" and instead say "I'm reporting it to the police"? Why must the reporting of a crime go up the chain of command before the proper authorities are involved?


If the perpetrator would have been Johnny Janitor, the phone call would have gone to police immediately after McQuery beat the crap out of the guy and he would have been basking in the limelight for lambasting a deviant.

But . . . since the perpetrator was a "friend of the program," those in the chain of command chose to engage in ambiguity and subterfuge to protect their "friend."

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:49 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Penn State officials put the football program ahead of the victims. End of story. If they reported Sandusky when this happened back in 1998, he might have been in jail back then and victims might have been spared.

But they didn't want the program tarnished.

Yes, Sandusky committed the actual crimes, but whoever knew about it and didn't do anything about it (McQueary, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, Spanier) are morally bankrupt.

And they all keep passing the buck. I reported it to my superior. Well, guess what? Spanier can't use that excuse.

Here's my question: at what point do you stop saying "I'm reporting it to my superior" and instead say "I'm reporting it to the police"? Why must the reporting of a crime go up the chain of command before the proper authorities are involved?


If the perpetrator would have been Johnny Janitor, the phone call would have gone to police immediately after McQuery beat the crap out of the guy and he would have been basking in the limelight for lambasting a deviant.

But . . . since the perpetrator was a "friend of the program," those in the chain of command chose to engage in ambiguity and subterfuge to protect their "friend."


One thing I disagree with is they were protecting a friend. I think the bottom line here is they were protecting the program. End of story. In fact, it wasn't even about Penn State University. It was about Penn State football.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
Shame, shame, shame on the whole administration. Some egos (mainly the President) are taking a hit here. Clean house from the Prez all the way down to Joe Pa and his staff.

This article on SI says it all.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/11/07/pennst.scandal/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2


Shame indeed, but lets be careful to not redirect all the anger and disgust away from the person who deserves it: Jerry Sandusky. PSU did not commit any crime here (nor is there much evidence of any coverup), their guilt lies on a moral level. There are always complex circumstances regarding the witnessing/reporting of a crime by family and friends, its never black and white. Of course something should have been done back in 2002 and that decision will likely cost Spanier, Joe, and others their jobs, but lets not demonize the wrong people. Its tempting for society to point the finger in many directions when a heinous crime is committed, but the pereptrator is solely responsible for his actions.

No crime. Why then are two administrators facing charges?

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:20 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
One thing I disagree with is they were protecting a friend. I think the bottom line here is they were protecting the program. End of story. In fact, it wasn't even about Penn State University. It was about Penn State football.


BINGO!!!! That's exactly what it was about...always has been over there and especially with Paterno.


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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:14 pm 
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Watching the hundreds of Penn Staters rally to JoePa's defense at his house last night, I have never been prouder to be a Pitt student.

PSU = Pedophilia Subterfuge Unlimited

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:56 am 
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Sad. I am getting more and more turned off by sports.

I think Jim Tressel and others may have done the same thing in such a situation. Wins are more imporatant than morals. I remember Billy Martin saying that he would start Hitler if
he could field and hit.


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