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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:08 pm 
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3 of the 4 losses last year were to pass-heavy teams, and it wasn't like the secondary put up a good fight. They were destroyed in each game (Brady 350, 3; Brees 305, 2; Rodgers 304, 3).

It's one thing to say, "These are some of the best passing teams in the league and they're going get their yards", it's another to be completely embarrassed each time. If they're going to win the Super Bowl, they can't be allowing the upper tier of passing offense to throw all day on them with the kind of success they had last season.


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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:17 am 
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RTJR wrote:
3 of the 4 losses last year were to pass-heavy teams, and it wasn't like the secondary put up a good fight. They were destroyed in each game (Brady 350, 3; Brees 305, 2; Rodgers 304, 3).

It's one thing to say, "These are some of the best passing teams in the league and they're going get their yards", it's another to be completely embarrassed each time. If they're going to win the Super Bowl, they can't be allowing the upper tier of passing offense to throw all day on them with the kind of success they had last season.


Except that they do win the Super Bowl if they don't turn it over on offense (same with the NO game). You're just not going to stop those teams, you may slow them down a bit. The Brady voodoo is a different story. Its a new league, you have to score to win.

Of course the new kickoff rule helps defenses quite a bit by making teams go 80 yards instead of 65-70.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:14 pm 
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I don't want excuses. The top ranked defense in the league that the Steelers have should be able to stop the best offenses. They do, unless those teams have a quality QB. That's the problem.

The secondary is a problem and it needs to be fixed. That's all there is to it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Timmons re-ups!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/68872 ... d-new-deal

Nice.

Also, not sure when, but... apparently the Ravens traded a mid-round pick for Lee Evans?!

Definitely thinking the Ravens have juice now.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:45 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
I don't want excuses. The top ranked defense in the league that the Steelers have should be able to stop the best offenses. They do, unless those teams have a quality QB. That's the problem.

The secondary is a problem and it needs to be fixed. That's all there is to it.


True. However, as Gregg Easterbrook pointed out in his latest TMQ, the other major problem which plagues the Steelers is their 4th Q Defense.

They allow as many or nearly as many opposing points in the 4th Q than they do in the previous 3 combined. Perhaps LeBeau backs off too much or the D is too tired to maintain intensity for all 4 Q's? Either way, the D has been 90% up to snuff compared to 08, but that 10% difference is what cost them a playoff spot in 09 and the SB last year.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:42 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
I don't want excuses. The top ranked defense in the league that the Steelers have should be able to stop the best offenses. They do, unless those teams have a quality QB. That's the problem.

The secondary is a problem and it needs to be fixed. That's all there is to it.


Isn't that the whole point, the top ranked defense in the league can't stop the best pass offenses, no one can.

Would I like an upgrade, sure. Is it possible, not in the salary cap era. Every team is going to have a weakness by design.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:16 pm 
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No. It's not a foregone conclusion that top ranked passing offenses are going to get their yards, even against the best defenses. The flip side of that logic is top ranked defenses should be equally capable of shutting down those top passing offenses. The Steelers' defense is only as good as the QB it's trying to stop, given the evidence.

I would believe the whole "the NFL is designed to make elite passing offenses impossible to stop" stuff if there weren't teams that have had better success stopping those types of offenses.

I wouldn't at all be surprised to learn that the Steelers give up more points in the 4th quarter simply because teams are passing more in an effort to make a comeback.


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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:16 pm 
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That is pretty much BS. No one really stops those offenses, and no one really stops the QB's with the quick release on a consistent basis. Steeler's included.

I can't believe the bitching and moaning about a defense that gets you to the SB 3 of last 6 years.

The issue with the NO's, NE's, and current Pack set up is not the corners, it is schematic. Each of those teams attack the weak spot in the Steeler 2-deep where they ask the safety's and linebackers to cover the mid center portion of the field. This leaves a really good TE or slot guy open all day when you have quick read, quick release guys like Brady, Brees and Rogers. Unless Troy or Timmons is making unreal plays all game long, that slot is simply... open... against this defense. It is their Achilles Heel.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:49 am 
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Burying your head in the sand doesn't make the problem go away.

Firstly, the Steelers would have gotten blasted a second time if the Jets hadn't managed to beat the Patriots. The Steelers just cannot beat the Patriots with Tom Brady.

Secondly, the Steelers have made to these SBs despite the obvious lack of quality in the secondary. The Steelers rely on one thing and one thing only on defense against the pass, and that's obviously blitzing/pass rush. When they meet a team with the ability to keep the front 7 from getting a lot of pressure on the QB, whether it be a QB with a quick release or a very good offensive line/blocking scheme, the Steelers lose. Why? Because then the defense is forced to rely on the CBs, who simply are not good enough to be relied upon in that manner.

I'm not one to let a positive end result wipe clean any glitches that may yet exist. The Steelers' main glitch is the secondary. Other defenses DO stop these passing offenses. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from that it can't be done. No offense is unstoppable, but in order to stop the pass-heavy offenses, you have to have the right personnel. The Steelers do not have that personnel, so we'll continue to see top level QBs go for over 300 yards and multiple TDs every time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:44 pm 
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Umm....

Its called "Scheme".

They only ask their corners to do certain things in the defense because the key IS the pass rush at the LB spot. That is where the defense is focused.

They draft corners for their SCHEME. They don't draft cover guys who won't hit a thing or support run. They draft big guys who can keep plays in front and keep one shut down corner on the team (Ike, and if you don't acknowledge Ike as a shutdown, I'll know where you stand on knowledge), and the others to keep in front and support.

Quick release guys like Brady will hurt that defense.

And, to say they got to 3 SB in 6 years "despite" the secondary is... just ridiculous.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:44 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Umm....

Its called "Scheme".

They only ask their corners to do certain things in the defense because the key IS the pass rush at the LB spot. That is where the defense is focused.

They draft corners for their SCHEME. They don't draft cover guys who won't hit a thing or support run. They draft big guys who can keep plays in front and keep one shut down corner on the team (Ike, and if you don't acknowledge Ike as a shutdown, I'll know where you stand on knowledge), and the others to keep in front and support.

Quick release guys like Brady will hurt that defense.


I would say they need to modify their scheme to allow them to beat teams like the Patriots, you know the team that annually kicks their tail? What good is it to have a scheme that put them at a disadvantage against the better QBs in the league?

ZelieMike wrote:
And, to say they got to 3 SB in 6 years "despite" the secondary is... just ridiculous.

ZM


No it's not. Winning does not make everything fine and dandy. They have won, win, and will win because of the pass rush, not the secondary. When they will need to rely on the secondary, they have lost, lose, and will lose. The only way to fix that is to bring in guys that can actually cover. There are players out there that can cover well and bring up support against the run, the Steelers only have one when they need 2 or 3.


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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:34 am 
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RTJR wrote:

The only way to fix that is to bring in guys that can actually cover. There are players out there that can cover well and bring up support against the run, the Steelers only have one when they need 2 or 3.


There are about 10 guys who fit your description in the whole NFL. They don't have cap room to pay Nnamdi $10 million a year. If they commit to pay a top corner that means losing a top LB, you can't have everything. The fact that they have 1 guy is better than most NFL teams.

This is like complaining about Megan Fox because she doesn't have a big enough chest.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
This is like complaining about Megan Fox because she doesn't have a big enough chest.


Actually, her toe-thumbs are more offputting. And the Skankyness.

---

I think RTJR's point is fair.

The Steelers escaped defeat vs. Warner's Cards thanks to a magnificent play by Harrison and a clutch last offensive drive. The secondary nearly blew that game just like they blow every game vs. the Pats, blew a slew of games in 09 and helped blow the SB last year.

Granted, yes, the Steelers usually only have trouble vs. the best QB's/pass offenses in the league (as do most other teams), but it doesn't mean it's not a problem or that the 'scheme' couldn't be tweaked to attempt to rectify the obvious problem.

Not trying to knock the obvious genius which is Dick LeBeau, but it's the definition of insane to do the same things over and over and expect different results.

The Steelers secondary has trouble vs. elite teams. Perhaps LeBeau should take a page out of the book of Belichick and (no, not spygate, but...) change schemes if/when neccessary.

Arians is more guilty of sticking to failed schemes/plans than Dick, but it is still worth noting obvious shortcomings.

If we all can figure out the Steelers massive weakness, imagine what the likes of Belichick, McCarthy, Payton and others can do.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:39 pm 
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They wouldn't need to pay $10 million if they would do better in the draft at CB. They have a terrible record when it comes to drafting CBs. I doubt there are very many teams who do worse.


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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:57 pm 
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RTJR wrote:
They wouldn't need to pay $10 million if they would do better in the draft at CB.


Honestly, if they hadn't traded up to land Polamalu (still amazes me that 10+ teams passed on him!), the D wouldn't have been good enough to make ONE SB (forget three!) and the team would still be stuck in the 'bridesmaid' Cowher era of 'close, but no cigar'.

While the CB's are lacking, so long as Troy and Clark are healthy the Secondary is capable... they just need to figure out a new scheme vs. elite passing teams.

RTJR wrote:
[The Steelers] have a terrible record when it comes to drafting CBs. I doubt there are very many teams who do worse.


Detroit and Houston spring to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:38 pm 
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You know, football is a team game. Yeah, we may be weak at a couple positions, but we are also great at a couple positions. Such is life in the NFL!

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Steelers inked Polamalu through 2014 today.

One less worry for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: The Secondary
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:57 am 
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Perception - Jets are much better against the pass than we are

Reality - we are just as good with a healthy Troy

2010 games with 2 or more passing TD's allowed - Steelers 3 Jets 7

2010 games with 300yards passing allowed - Steelers 2 Jets 2

2010 games with 100 yards by a WR - Steelers 4 Jets 4

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