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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:37 pm 
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Actually, this weekend is probably the whole season, so I think most of us are holding back in anticipation. The Ravens still struggle against the pass, something we couldn't exploit in the 1st meeting, and Ben has a great record against them in his career. A win puts us in the 2 seed driver seat, get a bye, then play the #3 in round 1 (either SD or Indy most likely) in Pittsburgh. It also potentially puts the Jets and the Pats on the same side of the bracket as the 1 and the 5 seeds. I don't see SD or Indy winning here in January, so in my book a Chapionship game appearance would look strong with a win Sunday night. Of course a loss means wild card and a tough road playoff game.

The officiating is getting tough to overcome, particularly when we play a better team like this week.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
The officiating is getting tough to overcome, particularly when we play a better team like this week.


Please, to blame this on referees is bordering on ludicrous. James Harrison has shown an inability to adjust his game and adapt to the latest interpretation of the rules. He continues to lead with his head and then go waah waah when called for it. It seems the rest of the league has figured it out. Quit crying James. :shock: :shock: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
The officiating is getting tough to overcome, particularly when we play a better team like this week.


Please, to blame this on referees is bordering on ludicrous. James Harrison has shown an inability to adjust his game and adapt to the latest interpretation of the rules. He continues to lead with his head and then go waah waah when called for it. It seems the rest of the league has figured it out. Quit crying James. :shock: :shock: :shock:


Sorry AZ. You are wrong on this one. I am not a conspiracy theorist but there is too much evidence supporting the fact that Harrison is being targeted by the league. On the hit on Fitzpatrick, that is how you are taught to tackle at all levels of football. Face mask in the chest. The official called helmet to helmet and then the league called it helmet to chest. If you watch the replay, he clearly has the crown of his face mask right in the QBs chest. The hit not only is legal, but it is fundamental. I am a son of a football coach. I have been around football since I was born. I have been to camps, clinics and been taught by some of the best football coaches in America. That is how I was taught to tackle.

Also on the replay, and this has been reported in the media as well, the official already is reaching for the flag before contact is made. That tells me that it is in the official's mind already that Harrison is a target. Whether that came down from the league or reputation, I don't know but it's not fair or football.

There is no doubt Harrison is brutal and violent. But that is the football we all grew up with. If you are saying the league has changed and so should Harrison, I agree with you from the standpoint that Harrison needs to change. But change into what? Where is the line now? When is a player defenseless? The league is playing a dangerous game here. And the hypocrisy that has been there for years is now being called out by guys like Hines Ward. The NFL needs to make a decision who they are or the league's integrity and future could be at stake.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Ditto.

Harrison has a very valid complaint.

'course this week with the Ravens it is 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:30 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
All teams in the league have warts. All of them.

Who will be hot down the stretch? Stillers have just as much a shot as any because they play such good defense.

ZM


Not against the pass. 240.5 allowed per game, 22nd in the league.

Flacco figured this out during the game winning drive @ Heinz Field. If the Ravens go with a pass-first gameplan (like the Pats), the Steelers shot could be a small very target.

bucco boy wrote:
Sorry AZ. You are wrong on this one. I am not a conspiracy theorist but there is too much evidence supporting the fact that Harrison is being targeted by the league. On the hit on Fitzpatrick, that is how you are taught to tackle at all levels of football. Face mask in the chest. The official called helmet to helmet and then the league called it helmet to chest. If you watch the replay, he clearly has the crown of his face mask right in the QBs chest. The hit not only is legal, but it is fundamental. I am a son of a football coach. I have been around football since I was born. I have been to camps, clinics and been taught by some of the best football coaches in America. That is how I was taught to tackle.
...
There is no doubt Harrison is brutal and violent. But that is the football we all grew up with. If you are saying the league has changed and so should Harrison, I agree with you from the standpoint that Harrison needs to change. But change into what? Where is the line now? When is a player defenseless? The league is playing a dangerous game here. And the hypocrisy that has been there for years is now being called out by guys like Hines Ward. The NFL needs to make a decision who they are or the league's integrity and future could be at stake.


"They don't care about the safety of the game. If the league was so concerned about the safety, why are you adding two more games on? You talk about you don't want players to drink ... and all you see is beer commercials. You don't want us to gamble, but then there are [NFL-endorsed lottery scratch-off games]."
-Hines Ward

I think Hines nailed it.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:48 pm 
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You are wrong, NM, to equate good defense with a pass efficiency rating.

Let's make this simple.

You can't run on them. No one can. They don't give up points. They don't give up points, especially touchdowns, better than anyone.

So, teams pass to catch up or win. D-backs in LeBeau's world, keep stuff in front of them. They give up yards.

So what. You don't score on them.

And, please don't give me one Flacco drive in which a nickel got caught without top coverage help.

Their defense is very, very good.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:52 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You are wrong, NM, to equate good defense with a pass efficiency rating.

Let's make this simple.

You can't run on them. No one can. They don't give up points. They don't give up points, especially touchdowns, better than anyone.

So, teams pass to catch up or win. D-backs in LeBeau's world, keep stuff in front of them. They give up yards.

So what. You don't score on them.

And, please don't give me one Flacco drive in which a nickel got caught without top coverage help.

Their defense is very, very good.

ZM


I agree with most of this except for the last line. Without Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel, they are just good. Get rid of the verys.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:27 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
Az Bucco fan wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
The officiating is getting tough to overcome, particularly when we play a better team like this week.


Please, to blame this on referees is bordering on ludicrous. James Harrison has shown an inability to adjust his game and adapt to the latest interpretation of the rules. He continues to lead with his head and then go waah waah when called for it. It seems the rest of the league has figured it out. Quit crying James. :shock: :shock: :shock:


Sorry AZ. You are wrong on this one. I am not a conspiracy theorist but there is too much evidence supporting the fact that Harrison is being targeted by the league. On the hit on Fitzpatrick, that is how you are taught to tackle at all levels of football. Face mask in the chest. The official called helmet to helmet and then the league called it helmet to chest. If you watch the replay, he clearly has the crown of his face mask right in the QBs chest. The hit not only is legal, but it is fundamental. I am a son of a football coach. I have been around football since I was born. I have been to camps, clinics and been taught by some of the best football coaches in America. That is how I was taught to tackle.

Also on the replay, and this has been reported in the media as well, the official already is reaching for the flag before contact is made. That tells me that it is in the official's mind already that Harrison is a target. Whether that came down from the league or reputation, I don't know but it's not fair or football.

There is no doubt Harrison is brutal and violent. But that is the football we all grew up with. If you are saying the league has changed and so should Harrison, I agree with you from the standpoint that Harrison needs to change. But change into what? Where is the line now? When is a player defenseless? The league is playing a dangerous game here. And the hypocrisy that has been there for years is now being called out by guys like Hines Ward. The NFL needs to make a decision who they are or the league's integrity and future could be at stake.


Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:33 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
You are wrong, NM, to equate good defense with a pass efficiency rating.

Let's make this simple.

You can't run on them. No one can. They don't give up points. They don't give up points, especially touchdowns, better than anyone.

So, teams pass to catch up or win. D-backs in LeBeau's world, keep stuff in front of them. They give up yards.

So what. You don't score on them.

And, please don't give me one Flacco drive in which a nickel got caught without top coverage help.

Their defense is very, very good.

ZM


The run defense is best in the league, but the pass defense is bottom 10/11 (and has been most of the season). That is fact at the moment.

Nearly 249 yards given up to the Fins in a game that should have been a loss (thanks refs!). 288 given up against the Saints in a road loss. 350 given up to the Pats in a blowout loss. 255 yards allowed against the Bills that should have been another loss (thanks Steve Johnson!).

As a unit and based on stats, the D is top-5. But the Bears, Jets, Ravens, Packers, Chargers or Falcons are just as good at the moment (and more balanced overall as a D).

ZelieMike wrote:
So, teams pass to catch up or win.


Win being the key word in that sentence.

Ravens passed to a W their final drive. Bengals came back from 20 down, almost won. Bills from 13 down and should have won. Don't know how the Fins didn't win (again, the refs). Pats never trailed.

Once teams pass first and abandon the run against the Steelers, then we'll know how legit they are on D. Because other than the always smarter than everyone else Belichick, nobody else has abandoned the run early against the Steelers.

It will be interesting to see what Harbaugh and Flacco's gameplans are on SNF. If they're conventional and want to brawl, the Steelers can win. If they air it out... I'm more skeptical.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:45 pm 
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I am not saying right or wrong. My point is that he is not making the adjustments required and to say it is a conspiracy against the Steelers carries no validity. Why is there not others being fined as often? Are others making the adjustment? Just asking. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:47 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:

Once teams pass first and abandon the run against the Steelers, then we'll know how legit they are on D. Because other than the always smarter than everyone else Belichick, nobody else has abandoned the run early against the Steelers.

.


That would be Saints, Bills, Pats... oh, and virtually everyone except the Titans.

I also notice you point to Bengals and Bills "almost" winning, and ignore how the Steelers by same said definition, "almost beat" the Saints and "should have" beat the Ravens.

At 8-3, you are finding an awful lot to moan about.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:10 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
NSMaster56 wrote:

Once teams pass first and abandon the run against the Steelers, then we'll know how legit they are on D. Because other than the always smarter than everyone else Belichick, nobody else has abandoned the run early against the Steelers.

.


That would be Saints, Bills, Pats... oh, and virtually everyone except the Titans.

I also notice you point to Bengals and Bills "almost" winning, and ignore how the Steelers by same said definition, "almost beat" the Saints and "should have" beat the Ravens.

At 8-3, you are finding an awful lot to moan about.

ZM


Because 12 weeks into the season and with few exceptions (against the Bucs and Browns, two teams that were a combined 8-24 last year) the Steelers have shown an inability to stop the pass & keep leads secure/kill clock when ahead/keep D off field when ahead/score when needed to put a game away.

Realistically this team is behind at least five (and perhaps even seven) other teams in terms of being a as good as you say they are.

IMO, weeks 10-15 are when teams should be in full swing, doing what they do best and putting things together. It's when good teams lose not because of stupid mistakes and miscues, but because their (equally good) opponent outplays them.

I see the Pats, Jets, Ravens, Chargers, Bears, Falcons, Saints, Pack and Eagles getting their acts together and losing close games and I see the Steelers still trying to put things together and making mistakes.

Since the return of Big Ben, I think the Steelers have done more to fall back in with the rest of the herd than to separate themselves from it.

Perhaps it is a case of me 'being too hard on [what's as good as] my own flesh and blood', but I call it like I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Oops, Why are there........ :? :? :? :? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:06 pm 
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NSMaster56 wrote:

Because 12 weeks into the season and with few exceptions (against the Bucs and Browns, two teams that were a combined 8-24 last year)


Ummm, what are their records THIS year, when the Steel beat them?


Quote:
Realistically this team is behind at least five (and perhaps even seven) other teams in terms of being a as good as you say they are.


Then why to those teams give up more points?

Quote:
IMO, weeks 10-15 are when teams should be in full swing, doing what they do best and putting things together. It's when good teams lose not because of stupid mistakes and miscues, but because their (equally good) opponent outplays them.

I see the Pats, Jets, Ravens, Chargers, Bears, Falcons, Saints, Pack and Eagles getting their acts together and losing close games and I see the Steelers still trying to put things together and making mistakes.


Ummm, closing games in the Steeler system, is not a function of the defense per se. It is a function of an offense that can kill the clock. In the Arian's era that won't happen because of his genetic disposition to avoid a fullback and commit to a running game as his predecessors did.

Quote:
Since the return of Big Ben, I think the Steelers have done more to fall back in with the rest of the herd than to separate themselves from it.


Can't tell it by the record, which is what counts. But, if you mean they still manage to win despite losing two of the better/best Defensive ends in the game, most of your offensive line, and giving away a pro-bowl receiver... well, OK, I'm with you.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
The officiating is getting tough to overcome, particularly when we play a better team like this week.


Please, to blame this on referees is bordering on ludicrous. James Harrison has shown an inability to adjust his game and adapt to the latest interpretation of the rules. He continues to lead with his head and then go waah waah when called for it. It seems the rest of the league has figured it out. Quit crying James. :shock: :shock: :shock:


I'm not just referring to the two Harrison BS calls the last two weeks. They called Ryan Clark for a helmet to helmet when he hit the reciever in the number on his back. They called Ike for interference for running down the field with a WR that ran himself out of bounds. They called a lineman for diving after a presumed fumble for a personal foul for piling on. They called holding on Mendy's 40 yarder that was phantom. 26 or 27 penalties in two weeks on a team that has been among the least penalized in the sport over the last few years, come on. The Raiders game was a joke those officials should have been fined, last week was only an example of poor officiating.

I'm not a ref blamer normally, heck we won both games, but I can see that target on our jersey's plain as day. It has become the Steelers vs. the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:38 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Ummm, what are their records THIS year, when the Steel beat them?


11-11 or .500. Wow, amazing.

The Steelers three biggest wins are against teams with a combined 16-17 record and their losses are against teams with a 25-8 record... hmm...

ZelieMike wrote:
Then why to those teams give up more points?


Two teams give up fewer points than the Steelers (Pack and Bears) and two are within a TD of the Steelers (Jets and Ravens). And regardless of points allowed, the Falcons, Jets and Pats have better records while the Ravens, Saints and Bears have equal records (and the Ravens and Saints have beaten the Steelers head to head).

Also, only THREE teams with winning records give up as many passing yards (or more) than the Steelers: The Pats, Falcons and Chiefs. Two of those teams still have better records than the Steelers (probably because their offense is more cohesive) and I would consider both of those teams better.

ZelieMike wrote:
Ummm, closing games in the Steeler system, is not a function of the defense per se. It is a function of an offense that can kill the clock. In the Arian's era that won't happen because of his genetic disposition to avoid a fullback and commit to a running game as his predecessors did.


I know the Steelers system and it looks almost broken (due to Arians and injuries). And just because it's the system being used does not make it the right one.

Since injuries are part of the game and since the offense has been erratic since Whisenhunt left, it's clear that Arians is the problem. The running game has done well despite a bad OL, but the passing game is hot and cold. Simply put: the offense should be better.

ZelieMike wrote:
Can't tell it by the record, which is what counts. But, if you mean they still manage to win despite losing two of the better/best Defensive ends in the game, most of your offensive line, and giving away a pro-bowl receiver... well, OK, I'm with you.

ZM


I mean they do not look better than somewhere between five and seven other teams thus far---five to seven other teams who they will have to beat to win the Super Bowl.

If they beat the Ravens on SNF, no matter how, I will finally have reason to believe otherwise. If they do not... it will be the same old story.

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:32 am 
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I'm shocked.

Thrilled, but shocked.

'Balboa' Roethlisberger somehow got it done and for all the grief I give the (pass) D, they are the the only reason why this team is so good. I honestly love them, specifically Troy; if there's a football team in heaven he's on God's shortlist for SS.

This W will certainly be added to my 'Top 10 Steelers: How in the HELL did they win that game' pantheon list (behind the 2005 AFC Divisional game vs. the Colts and somewhere beside last year's GB game and 08's Dallas-Baltimore back-to-back heart stoppers).

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:30 am 
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How did they win?

Simple.

Their defense is the best.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:32 am 
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Those 2 defenses last night were impressive. Really impressive. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Stiller nation so quiet?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:02 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
How did they win?

Simple.

Their defense is the best.

ZM


Yup, the D absolutely won the game last night.

I was shocked when the D did something I hadn't seen it do since the 2008 AFC Championship game:

It got BETTER in the 4th Quarter and put MORE pressure on the QB.

Maybe it was because Keisel was back, maybe it was because they were playing the Ravens and maybe because the team finally got that 'edge' back (more reps in the gym???).

All I know is that I'm excited and I want to see it again.

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