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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:03 pm 
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NDL wrote:
I think that the Big 10 will expand. I'm not sure who they're going to take, but ND will say no, Texas seems out of the question to me, and then you're basically left with Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, and Missouri.

If the Chicago newspaper article is accurate, and Rutgers is the team that the Big 10 thinks will work out the best, I think they are going to be under a lot of heat for that selection. Although the Big 10 is more than an athletic conference, it is still an athletic conference. Rutgers football is on the upswing but couldn't compete in the Big East the last two years. Their basketball program is a disgrace. In terms of athletic competition they deliver nothing.

What I continue to hear about Rutgers is that they are going to deliver the NYC market. I don't think that this can be further from the truth. In order to deliver that market, they need to have people who care about them in that market who are willing to tell their cable provider that they want the Big 10 network. The cable providers aren't going to carry the Big 10 network at the higher price they will have to pay per subscriber in that area unless there is going to be demand for it. Since nobody cares about Rutgers, there won't be any demand. I also think if the Big 10 thinks that just joining the Big 10 will increase the amount of people who care about Rutgers, they are incorrect. The football program is likely to be at the same level of competitiveness in the Big 10 as the Big East if not worse and still nobody will care about their pathetic hoops program.

Missouri is a school I could see being the total package for them: delivering a new TV market and providing competitive sports programs without sacrificing too much on academic prestige. Syracuse would be interesting for them because more people care about their sports programs, they have good academic programs, and they stand a better chance than Rutgers at delivering the NYC market. On the other hand, they can't get their football program in order to save their life and they are pretty far out geographically (and Rutgers is the worst geographical fit).

Pitt fits for everything but a new TV market. It would be nice if they would get the invitation because it would make more sense from the other aspects but we all know this decision is being made based on green. I still don't think that Pitt is out of the discussion, though, because of the aforementioned issues with some of the other schools.

Pitt delivers something more than half a TV market. I know Penn State grads who wouldn't watch a basketball game for money, and there are plenty of Pittsburghers (such as myself) who won't watch a Penn State football game until Paterno is roasting in the Hell of the Self Righteous.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:14 pm 
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We already get the Big 10 network here and we already pay in market prices because of Penn State, from what I understand. Because of this, Pitt doesn't really deliver the market. It's already delivered.


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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:07 am 
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NDL wrote:
I think that the Big 10 will expand. I'm not sure who they're going to take, but ND will say no, Texas seems out of the question to me, and then you're basically left with Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, and Missouri.

If the Chicago newspaper article is accurate, and Rutgers is the team that the Big 10 thinks will work out the best, I think they are going to be under a lot of heat for that selection. Although the Big 10 is more than an athletic conference, it is still an athletic conference. Rutgers football is on the upswing but couldn't compete in the Big East the last two years. Their basketball program is a disgrace. In terms of athletic competition they deliver nothing.

What I continue to hear about Rutgers is that they are going to deliver the NYC market. I don't think that this can be further from the truth. In order to deliver that market, they need to have people who care about them in that market who are willing to tell their cable provider that they want the Big 10 network. The cable providers aren't going to carry the Big 10 network at the higher price they will have to pay per subscriber in that area unless there is going to be demand for it. Since nobody cares about Rutgers, there won't be any demand. I also think if the Big 10 thinks that just joining the Big 10 will increase the amount of people who care about Rutgers, they are incorrect. The football program is likely to be at the same level of competitiveness in the Big 10 as the Big East if not worse and still nobody will care about their pathetic hoops program.

Missouri is a school I could see being the total package for them: delivering a new TV market and providing competitive sports programs without sacrificing too much on academic prestige. Syracuse would be interesting for them because more people care about their sports programs, they have good academic programs, and they stand a better chance than Rutgers at delivering the NYC market. On the other hand, they can't get their football program in order to save their life and they are pretty far out geographically (and Rutgers is the worst geographical fit).

Pitt fits for everything but a new TV market. It would be nice if they would get the invitation because it would make more sense from the other aspects but we all know this decision is being made based on green. I still don't think that Pitt is out of the discussion, though, because of the aforementioned issues with some of the other schools.

Yep I believe the TV market theory is why we may see Rutgers joining the Big Ten. There are two reasons I ultimately don't think Rutgers will be added: One is that I agree that geographically they're not a great fit. I think you would have to fly from U of Minn (for example) to Rutgers, and that's unrealistic for the non-revenue sports teams. The other reason is I really don't think anyone in Big Ten country would care about Rutgers, just as I am not sure anyone from New Jersey would care about the Big Ten. NJ is considered the east coast, I don't think that will translate in Illinois or Indiana or Wisconsin, etc.

Missouri is interesting. They are the U of Illinois' biggest rival. They also have some competitive athletic teams and I believe would be embraced by the Big Ten states. Of the Big 12 schools, they are the most realistic. Texas has no chance to join, the only schools with worse proximity to their conference would be La Tech and Hawaii (Hawaii for obvious reasons). Iowa State has been mentioned but without knowing a ton about Iowa State, I couldn't comment. I believe their flaw is they're too small but I am not 100%.

The reason I would prefer Pitt to join above the other current possibilities is because they excite me the most in terms of on-field excitement. In the limited number of Pitt basketball games I have seen, they strike me as a hard-nosed, lunch-pale type team. That is what the Big Ten is all about. For their football team, Wanny is a former Chicago Bears coach. We know him pretty well here. They have a lot better name recognition than some of the other choices, not to mention Dion Lewis in the Big Ten would be a blast to watch (since typically big PJ Hill, Shonn Greene, Marion Barber and TJ Duckett type backs thrive). I know it's a meatheaded reason, but I really don't care haha.

This is honestly the sports story I am most interested in right now. I've lived my entire life in Big Ten country as well as I walked onto the MSU wrestling team. I would prefer the Big Ten to pass on everyone until ND finally accepts that they belong in the Big Ten. I think they're still stuck in a different era and at some point, they will understand OSU and the rest of the Big Ten are also fairly well covered teams (with the exception of Indiana haha). They're not the only national team anymore. They could still play UWash, USC and Navy while playing a Big Ten schedule (they already see MSU, UM and Purdue every year).

My humble two cents. Sorry if I babbled hahaha.


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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:41 am 
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I don't think ND will join the Big 10 no-matter what happens. The only thing that would make them join a conference, in my mind, would be a requirement that they cannot get into the BCS unless they decide to join one. I doubt that's happening.

As for Iowa State, I don't think their academics stack up. Also, I would imagine Iowa is much more popular in state than Iowa State. I admittedly don't know much about them.

I am also following this story closely as I am a Pitt student.


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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:00 pm 
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NDL wrote:
We already get the Big 10 network here and we already pay in market prices because of Penn State, from what I understand. Because of this, Pitt doesn't really deliver the market. It's already delivered.

Not the case at all. There are many, many folks who do not watch the Big 10 network in the Pittsburgh area because they detest Penn State and, as I said, even Penn State fans can't really be bothered to watch their basketball team. Adding Pitt gives them a whole new basketball market and part of the local college football market.

Adding Rutgers gets them Tony Soprano. Nobody else will give a damn.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:05 pm 
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They get the NJ market - huge compared to Pitt in terms of TV exposure.

They get a prestigious university (Rutgers is considered the equivalent of Big 10 schools, acedemically)

They get to recruit NJ. More good for PSU and Rutgers, possibly tOSU and Michigan.

Pitt gives them a market of less than 2M viewers - divided between PSU, Pitt and WVU.

Oh, and a fan base that won't show up and won't travel for football, no matter how good the team.

Pitt loses the hard fought to acquire NYC BB recruiting market. Big blow to program.

BE needs to be proactive and poach two more football programs with respectable BB.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:34 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
NDL wrote:
We already get the Big 10 network here and we already pay in market prices because of Penn State, from what I understand. Because of this, Pitt doesn't really deliver the market. It's already delivered.

Not the case at all. There are many, many folks who do not watch the Big 10 network in the Pittsburgh area because they detest Penn State and, as I said, even Penn State fans can't really be bothered to watch their basketball team. Adding Pitt gives them a whole new basketball market and part of the local college football market.

Adding Rutgers gets them Tony Soprano. Nobody else will give a damn.


We're not on the same page. To be honest, I don't know enough about how TV works.

Is it TV sets or people who actually watch that makes the difference?

I am working off of the assumption that the Big 10 wants the NYC market because it gives them more TV sets in their market which means they can justify asking a higher price per set for a subscription to the Big 10 network. Isn't this the setup they are looking for? The other answer is ratings which I am not sure matters to them. I don't know how much extra money that brings in for them.

I just don't know enough about how TV networks make their money. If somebody knows that, please, enlighten us.


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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:11 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
They get the NJ market - huge compared to Pitt in terms of TV exposure.

The problem is that nobody in NJ gives a damn about Rutgers.

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They get a prestigious university (Rutgers is considered the equivalent of Big 10 schools, acedemically)

They get to recruit NJ. More good for PSU and Rutgers, possibly tOSU and Michigan.

Pitt gives them a market of less than 2M viewers - divided between PSU, Pitt and WVU.

Oh, and a fan base that won't show up and won't travel for football, no matter how good the team.

And the Rutgers fan base will? Please. Besides, taking Rutgers means that they're looking for a punching bag, not a competitor.

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Pitt loses the hard fought to acquire NYC BB recruiting market. Big blow to program.

I don't want Pitt to go to the Big 10, but I have nothing to worry about. Paterno will never let it happen.

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BE needs to be proactive and poach two more football programs with respectable BB.

ZM

I agree, but who? Do you have any suggestions?

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:14 pm 
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NDL wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
NDL wrote:
We already get the Big 10 network here and we already pay in market prices because of Penn State, from what I understand. Because of this, Pitt doesn't really deliver the market. It's already delivered.

Not the case at all. There are many, many folks who do not watch the Big 10 network in the Pittsburgh area because they detest Penn State and, as I said, even Penn State fans can't really be bothered to watch their basketball team. Adding Pitt gives them a whole new basketball market and part of the local college football market.

Adding Rutgers gets them Tony Soprano. Nobody else will give a damn.


We're not on the same page. To be honest, I don't know enough about how TV works.

Is it TV sets or people who actually watch that makes the difference?

I am working off of the assumption that the Big 10 wants the NYC market because it gives them more TV sets in their market which means they can justify asking a higher price per set for a subscription to the Big 10 network. Isn't this the setup they are looking for? The other answer is ratings which I am not sure matters to them. I don't know how much extra money that brings in for them.

I just don't know enough about how TV networks make their money. If somebody knows that, please, enlighten us.

As I understand it, the number of sets matters if your channel is not sold as a premium channel. If it is marketed as a premium channel, and for selling advertising, it comes down to how many folks will pay the premium and tune in to watch.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:09 am 
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If that's the case, there's no way Rutgers is as good for the Big 10 as some make it out to be. If you can define the Rutgers market as encompassing NYC, the only way you are going to help yourself is if the Big 10 Network is not a premium channel and then only how many sets in the area matters. Since I am assuming it would be considered a premium channel under the framework you provided, Rutgers doesn't add anything to the Big 10 because people would have to WANT to watch them.

I don't care what anybody says: nobody in NYC cares about Rutgers. Not many people in NJ really care about them either, from my experience.

If that's the criteria, I would think Pitt would be better for the Big 10 but still not as good as some of the other available options. I would imagine Missouri could bring a larger market than Pitt.

Also, I don't think Joe Paterno is going to hold back Pitt going to the Big 10. If it doesn't happen, I would bet good money it won't be because of him. As much as he wouldn't like to play Pitt again, he won't have the choice because it's not coaches who vote for schools to be admitted to the conference and at this point I doubt he has the sway to keep Pitt out.


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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:38 pm 
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NDL wrote:
If that's the case, there's no way Rutgers is as good for the Big 10 as some make it out to be. If you can define the Rutgers market as encompassing NYC, the only way you are going to help yourself is if the Big 10 Network is not a premium channel and then only how many sets in the area matters. Since I am assuming it would be considered a premium channel under the framework you provided, Rutgers doesn't add anything to the Big 10 because people would have to WANT to watch them.

I don't care what anybody says: nobody in NYC cares about Rutgers. Not many people in NJ really care about them either, from my experience.

If that's the criteria, I would think Pitt would be better for the Big 10 but still not as good as some of the other available options. I would imagine Missouri could bring a larger market than Pitt.

Also, I don't think Joe Paterno is going to hold back Pitt going to the Big 10. If it doesn't happen, I would bet good money it won't be because of him. As much as he wouldn't like to play Pitt again, he won't have the choice because it's not coaches who vote for schools to be admitted to the conference and at this point I doubt he has the sway to keep Pitt out.

Nobody at Penn State has the balls to say "no" to Joe Paterno. Not the A.D., not the Board of Trustees, not even the President of the University. There was a little talk of the PA legislature forcing Penn State to face Pitt every year some years back (both are state schools, and Pitt would benefit financially from such an arrangement), but it never got past the talk stage because of Paterno's influence with PA Republicans. Paterno will decide how Penn State votes.

I think that the Big 10's first choice should be Notre Dame, then Missouri, then Pitt. I'd rather not see Pitt leave the Big East unless it was a package deal that included West Virginia, and that isn't going to happen with the Big 10.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:24 pm 
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What is the benefit to PSU? They put 100k+ in the seats. Pitt puts 35K.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:26 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
The problem is that nobody in NJ gives a damn about Rutgers.


They'll give a damn the minute tOSU, Wisconsin, and PSU come to town.

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And the Rutgers fan base will? Please. Besides, taking Rutgers means that they're looking for a punching bag, not a competitor.


They do, if you watched the past Rutger's bowl teams in the last couple years. Certainly moreso than Pitt. Rutgers football is not a punching bag anymore if you haven't noticed. This team, right now, is better than NWestern, Indiana, and probably Minnesota.

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I don't want Pitt to go to the Big 10, but I have nothing to worry about. Paterno will never let it happen.


JoePa has no say in the league matters.

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BE needs to be proactive and poach two more football programs with respectable BB.

ZM

I agree, but who? Do you have any suggestions?[/quote]

Yep. First thing I do is see if Villanova will go the Connecticut route to DI. They can do it. They have a nice football history and a fan base on the western side of Philly.

Next, I look to get some schools that need a BCS bid and can compete a bit. TCU comes to mind.

BC is not happy in the ACC, so I hear. Get them back into the fold. The only reason they left was because they wanted a football only conference. To this end, I put all the football schools in one division, all BB in the other. Ultimately this leads to a natural split.

Next, I push for a big rivalry team that comes from a power conference, but that might view the BE as a better fit. Think Kentucky here. They are a BB school that struggles in the SEC football powerhouse. To them, the BE would be a step UP and give their football team instant competitiveness. They also get a natural permanent rivalry with Louisville.

Failing any one of these, I recruit a UCF or a Tulsa.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:23 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
What is the benefit to PSU? They put 100k+ in the seats. Pitt puts 35K.

ZM

It doesn't matter who they play from PSU's standpoint. The fact that they'd sooner play Eastern Mongolia Normal than Pitt says a lot about Paterno's ability to hold a grudge when anyone doesn't just kiss his has and do what he tells them to.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:31 pm 
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I had an elaborate point for point reply, but I keep screwing up the formatting, lol.

People in NY or NJ think that the Allegheny Mountains are there to keep folks from accidentally rolling off of the edge of the earth. The Big 10 mystique holds no sway on the east coast.

Paterno will decide how Penn State votes, and he is highly respected. His influence could sway a close vote.

You have some interesting ideas for the Big East, but I have my doubts that any of them would be enough to save the Big East as a BCS conference.

BC was insane to leave the Big East.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:42 am 
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Paterno's influence at Penn State is waning.

If this was 1995 I would agree with you. At this point, people aren't going to be swayed by someone who they know doesn't have much time left. He's done great things for Penn State and put them on the map. Everybody knows that. By now, though, Penn State is bigger than Joe Paterno. That wasn't always the case.

Also, it sounds like you're friends with some Penn State fans. I am too. It's amazing that they all follow the program to a hardcore level but can't see through the fog with Paterno. The administration there isn't going to be swayed by someone who is biding time on such an important issue. If they don't want Pitt in the Big 10 for some odd reason, they'll make it happen for their own reasons without Paterno's influence.


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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:14 pm 
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sisyphus wrote:
The problem is that nobody in NJ gives a damn about Rutgers.

Not true. Ever since Rutgers started winning football games, college football has become much more popular in NJ, especially among those who live in South Jersey and in and around New Brunswick, which is where Rutgers main campus is. Furthermore, since there is only one other big to mid-size university in NJ that has an existing football team, let alone a respectable one, Rutgers has very little competition regarding local college football. While professional football is still king in Jersey, there is plenty of support for the Scarlet Knights when they win.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:18 pm 
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NDL wrote:
Paterno's influence at Penn State is waning.

If this was 1995 I would agree with you. At this point, people aren't going to be swayed by someone who they know doesn't have much time left. He's done great things for Penn State and put them on the map. Everybody knows that. By now, though, Penn State is bigger than Joe Paterno. That wasn't always the case.

Also, it sounds like you're friends with some Penn State fans. I am too. It's amazing that they all follow the program to a hardcore level but can't see through the fog with Paterno. The administration there isn't going to be swayed by someone who is biding time on such an important issue. If they don't want Pitt in the Big 10 for some odd reason, they'll make it happen for their own reasons without Paterno's influence.

The administration (A.D and the Chancellor, I believe it was) went to Paterno's house a few years back to tell him that it was time to step down. Paterno ran them off. He's still coaching, and that was more than 5 years ago.

That said, I think that he's handed off a lot of his responsibilities to his assistants over the last few years. But don't kid yourself about his influence in college football. He still carries a big stick.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:23 pm 
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Willton wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
The problem is that nobody in NJ gives a damn about Rutgers.

Not true. Ever since Rutgers started winning football games, college football has become much more popular in NJ, especially among those who live in South Jersey and in and around New Brunswick, which is where Rutgers main campus is. Furthermore, since there is only one other big to mid-size university in NJ that has an existing football team, let alone a respectable one, Rutgers has very little competition regarding local college football. While professional football is still king in Jersey, there is plenty of support for the Scarlet Knights when they win.

And how many games will they be winning in the Big 10? My guess is not many, in the long run. If they aspire to being the next Northwestern, have fun, because I think that's how they'll end up.

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 Post subject: Re: FSN
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:21 am 
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sisyphus wrote:
NDL wrote:
Paterno's influence at Penn State is waning.

If this was 1995 I would agree with you. At this point, people aren't going to be swayed by someone who they know doesn't have much time left. He's done great things for Penn State and put them on the map. Everybody knows that. By now, though, Penn State is bigger than Joe Paterno. That wasn't always the case.

Also, it sounds like you're friends with some Penn State fans. I am too. It's amazing that they all follow the program to a hardcore level but can't see through the fog with Paterno. The administration there isn't going to be swayed by someone who is biding time on such an important issue. If they don't want Pitt in the Big 10 for some odd reason, they'll make it happen for their own reasons without Paterno's influence.

The administration (A.D and the Chancellor, I believe it was) went to Paterno's house a few years back to tell him that it was time to step down. Paterno ran them off. He's still coaching, and that was more than 5 years ago.

That said, I think that he's handed off a lot of his responsibilities to his assistants over the last few years. But don't kid yourself about his influence in college football. He still carries a big stick.


Well, his position is head coach but he doesn't coach football anymore. His assistants are top notch (sans his own flesh and blood) and they run the team. I'm skeptical about how much influence he has anymore.


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