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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:01 pm 
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The lousy Mounties from the lowly Big East, are beating Pitt right now by 6 at half. If Pitt can't win in the Big East, they might as well go to the Big 10 and maybe win there.

Money? Pitt brings nothing to the football table. Hell, they sell season tickets for $80.00 and can't sell them except for the fact that ND was coming this year.

As far as poor football programs in the Big East, look at the bottom half of the Big Ten and you'll find some really average teams.

Go WVU

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:03 am 
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First off, you're talking apples and oranges. Pitt lost to WVU in basketball today. By all accounts, WVU is not lowly in basketball and neither is the Big East.

Secondly, while you are right that Pitt may not offer much financially to the Big 10 I think that has a lot to do with a separate issue than attendance at football games. Also, attendance at football games may be indicative of an even more important problem than attendance is in and of itself.

The big problem with what Pitt brings to the Big 10, by all accounts, is the fact that it doesn't bring a new TV market to the conference. Adding a school with a new TV market would add to the revenue for the Big 10. Adding a team that doesn't add a new TV market would decrease the revenue per Big 10 team which is something they obviously don't want to do.

Now, attendance at the football games and season ticket packages are probably indicative of a more substantial problem than poor attendance in and of itself. What it really says is that Pitt has a poor fan base. If that's the case, who is going to demand watching Pitt football games on the Big 10 network when the cable company decides they are going to pull it from the Pittsburgh area because it's too expensive? Even worse, who in western PA is going to protest outside of Pittsburgh (maybe Oakland, sad to say) itself? Nobody. And that's the problem...not the fact that Pitt can't sell the stadium out unless ND comes. There's a bigger underlying problem than empty seats...there's a lack of a good fan base.

Unfortunately, the lack of fan base for Pitt extends far and wide in my estimation. While I think the Pirates will be able to catch on if they put together a winning product Pitt football will never enjoy the same pleasure. They play football which is rivaled by the biggest show in town: the Steelers. Pitt football will always suffer due to this because there will always be football games on Saturday and Sunday which fans will have to choose between. When that happens, I think you can see what the result is from attendance. Pitt clearly can do better by winning more football games and staying competitive, however, there is a fundamental problem that I have already hypothesized which runs deeper than empty seats.


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:52 pm 
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I guess my issue is that I don't see the Big 10 as so much of a great conference. If we look at this conferences bowl record over the past decade, we see a miserable performance. A losing record for sure. Look only at the Rose Bowl results over years. I don't have the numbers but it's very clear.

What that means to me is that the conference has been so overrated for years that their teams get ranked higher and invited to more bowl games then their play deserves. So, sooner or later that fact will be learned by people and their control of money and TV will end. Why would Pitt want to be in that situation?

No, they should stay where they are.

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:33 pm 
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That all makes sense if you think that the perception people have about the conference is going to dramatically change for the worse. I happen to doubt that will happen for a variety of reasons.

For one, the conference is made up of huge schools. That means they pump out a huge number of graduates. With that said, because of the power of numbers a lot of minds are going to have to change in regard to how good the conference is. Also, keep in mind that it's the schools at the top of the conference who can pull in the top recruits year in and year out that really matter because that's all the media cares about. I don't see perceptions about Michigan and Ohio State changing anytime soon and that's what drives the conference in terms of how strong the media believes they are.

Also, why turn down the money? The Big 10 would make Pitt athletics way more money than the Big East does. Do you think that is going to change? I highly, highly doubt it.


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:31 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
I guess my issue is that I don't see the Big 10 as so much of a great conference. If we look at this conferences bowl record over the past decade, we see a miserable performance. A losing record for sure. Look only at the Rose Bowl results over years. I don't have the numbers but it's very clear.

What that means to me is that the conference has been so overrated for years that their teams get ranked higher and invited to more bowl games then their play deserves. So, sooner or later that fact will be learned by people and their control of money and TV will end. Why would Pitt want to be in that situation?

No, they should stay where they are.


Sub -
"So" overrated? Who is overrating them? Big 10 football has been a punching bag in the media for many, many years. I'm curious as to what Big 10 teams received bowl bids to what bowls that were undeserved. And who should have received the bowl bid in their place?

The TV contract is based upon number of TV sets. Big 10 country is, by far, the leader. The TV money isn't going away. Attendance is huge. Fan interest is huge. That isn't going away.

Invites to the bowl games are largely contractual. In fact, one might call New Year's Day 2011 as "Big 10/SEC day." Big 10 teams will be playing in the Outback Bowl (#3 Big 10 versus SEC), Gator Bowl (#4 Big 10 v. SEC), Capital One Bowl (#2 Big 10 v. SEC) and Rose Bowl (#1 Big 10 v. Pac10). There will be at least four Big 10 teams playing on New Year's Day. There is also the chance for a 5th Big 10 team to be playing on New Years Day depending upon how the teams fare. It is in the new Dallas Football Classic and potentially matches a Big 10 team against a Conference USA team. And, on top of that, the Big 10 (like any other conference) has the chance to have a second BCS team (Iowa received an at-large bid and beat GT in the Orange Bowl this year).

This year, the Big East had Cincinnati as its BCS representative. WVU got to play on 1/1/10 against FSU. Then Pitt fell to the Car Care bowl on 12/26. Pitt as the "third seed" in the Big East played on 12/26 in the Car Care Bowl against North Carolina.

The Big 10's third seed (PSU) played on 1/1/10 against LSU. The Big 10's fourth seed (Northwestern) played on 1/1/10 against Auburn. The Big 10's fifth seed (Wisconsin) played on 12/29/09 against Miami. Hell, the Big 10's sixth seed (MSU) played on 1/2/10 against Texas Tech and the Big 10 seventh seed (Minnesota) played on 12/31/09 against Iowa State.

Thus, seven Big 10 teams played bowl games after Pitt played UNC on 12/26.

The national TV money isn't going away based upon popularity and, just as important, the bowl money isn't going away because of contractual tie-ins.

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:13 pm 
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My question isn't about getting bowl bids. In fact that's my point. The Big 10 is so overrated that they get into so many undeserved games. The evidence of that fact is that they do so poorly in those games. This year was an exception but most years they get trounced. Maybe someone else should be there instead.

Not defending WVU here. Yes I'm a huge fan but as a realist I know that their team was not very strong this year. But that doesn't mean that the Big 10 is strong.

Answer these three questions:
1. What was their out of conference record against BCS schools?
2. What is their over-all record in bowl games in say the last 10 years?
3. What is the over-all record for the bottom half of the conference teams in that same period?

The SEC can rightfully claim that they deserve that many bowl games, the Big Ten cannot. BTW, how's the Rich Rod thing working out for Michigan?

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Sub -
You keep making reference to Big 10 teams getting into "undeserved" games. Since teams are responsible for their own schedules, I gather that your "beef" is with the bowl selection process.

My understanding of your original point was that Big 10 football was likely going to see a decrease in revenue and that Pitt should avoid any temptation to jump leagues. My point was (1) the Big 10 has contractual tie-ins with 8 bowls right now; (2) fans of Big 10 football travel as well as - if not better than - any football conference in America. The contractual tie-ins aren't going away. Also, the number of TV sets in Big 10 country outnumber the TV sets in any other part of the country. Plus, the number of alumni across the country from Big 10 schools outnumbers any other conference. Thus, the TV money isn't going away. The combination of (1) fan enthusiasm; (2) number of fans and (3) contracts with bowls will ensure that the ADs in Big 10 schools see loads of revenue coming from football. I simply don't agree with the notion that the Big 10 schools are on the verge of facing any reduction in revenue let alone a significant reduction in revenue.

Back to the "deserved" argument . . . because of contractual tie-ins, the only discretionary bowl that a Big 10 team can be invited to would be an at-large BCS bowl. There have been 12 seasons since the inception of the BCS. Of those 12 seasons, 9 of them have seen a Big 10 team receive an at-large bid. Here are the results of the at-large teams by year:

'98-'99 - # 4 Ohio State defeats #6 Texas Tech in Sugar Bowl (24-14)
'99- '00 - #8 Michigan defeats #4 Alabama in Orange Bowl (35-34 in OT)
'00-'01 - no at large bid
'01-'02 - no at large bid
'02-'03 - #4 USC beats #5 Iowa in Orange Bowl (38-17)
'03-'04 - #5 Ohio State defeats #10 Kansas State in Fiesta Bowl (35-28)
'04-'05 - no at large bid
'05-'06 - #4 Ohio State defeats #6 Notre Dame in Fiesta Bowl (34-30) * automatic bid due to #4 ranking
'06-'07 - #5 USC defeats #3 Michigan in Rose Bowl (32-18) * automatic bid due to #3 ranking
'07-'08 - #7 USC defeats #13 Illinois in Rose Bowl (49-17)
'08-'09 - #3 Texas defeats #10 Ohio State in Fiesta Bowl (24-21)
'09-'10 - #10 Iowa defeats #9 Georgia Tech in Orange Bowl (27-14)

Total record in discretionary games with BCS is 5-4. And, really, because of the BCS rules, the bowls had to select OSU in '05-'06 and Michigan in '06-'07. So . . . really, the Big 10 is 4-3 in BCS games where a team received an at-large invitation. In their 3 losses, Iowa got thumped by USC in the second half of the '02-'03 Orange Bowl (Iowa led at halftime); Illinois got thumped throughout the game by USC in the '07-'08 Rose Bowl; OSU lost a squeaker to Texas in the '08-'09 Fiesta Bowl.

I can't speak to the entire conference's bowl record but do know that Iowa is 5-3 over the last 10 years in their bowl games. (1-1 agaisnt Big 12; 0-1 against Pac 10; 1-0 against ACC and 3-2 against the vaunted SEC; wins over Florida, LSU, Texas Tech, South Carolina and Georgia Tech and losses to Florida, USC and Texas)

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:43 pm 
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I'll also add one more point to the discussion. As much as discussion focuses on the athletic side of the equation, there is very much an academic side to the equation.

All Big 10 schools are members of the Association of American Universities ("AAU"). Also, the Big 10 schools plus the University of Chicago comprise the Committee of Institutional Cooperation ("CIC"). The opportunity to become a member of the CIC was a huge lure to Penn State when it joined the Big 10.

In the early 90s, the University of Texas approached the Big 10 and the Pac 8 about joining the conference primarily because it saw a better fit academically with the Big 10 (not all of the Big 8 schools at the time were AAU schools and UT wanted to become part of the CIC). Stanford (an academic rival of Texas voted "no") and the Big 10 had placed a four year moritorium on expansion after adding PSU so it said "no" as well. Texas then became part of the Big 12.

Despite its geographical distance from the remainder of the Big 10 schools, word has it that Texas' administration (outside of athletics) very much froths at the mouth at the possibility of becoming a member of the CIC. They also purportedly view joining a conference with all members being part of the AAU as desirable. Only 7 of the 12 Big 12 schools are AAU members. I know that Oklahoma; Oklahoma State; Baylor are not AAU member institutions. Research $$$, access to research, etc. is a huge lure for the academic side of the equation and drive the process as much as athletics.

So . . . the notion that Texas joining the Big 10 is perhaps not the pipe dream that some think it is. I still think that big pocket Texas alumni will balk and put pressure on the administration to say "no" if an invite is extended. Missouri and Pitt seem to me to be the logical and most likely "fits" from both an athletic, geographic and an academic standpoint. Both Mizzou and Pitt are AAU institutions and would make excellent additions to the CIC (Pitt more than Mizzou based solely on the medical side of the equation). I know for a fact that the U of Iowa (largest teaching hospital in the country) would welcome the opportunity to bring Pitt into the CIC fold.

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:07 pm 
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I agree that academics are more important than many people believe in this equation. The Big 10 isn't going to just add another university because it wants to add one but it also isn't going to just add one because of a superior athletic program. If that were the criteria, they may as well look at WVU who has a solid football and basketball program. Plain and simple, that isn't going to happen.

From what I understand, the AAU membership is not so much a requirement as a desire. ND is not a member of the AAU from what I understand but the Big 10 would obviously overlook that and admit them if they desired to join.

I can't see Texas joining the Big 10. It doesn't make sense from their end, to me, to join the conference. They rule the Big 12 and get the biggest cut of the Big 12 TV contract payout pie. The Big 12 isn't exactly chopped liver, either. They have nice rivalry games in that conference and they couldn't continue all of them if they joined the Big 10.

Geography is actually something that I think also gets overlooked. Texas is really far away. If they join the Big 10, they are going to be competing in the Big 10 in all sports they choose to participate in because the Big 10 is an all sports conference. Can you see them sending their olympic sports teams to State College, Ann Arbor, and Madison on a regular basis? That's really far away and would wreak havoc on their travel funds. It's not a huge deal in football with only 12 games a year and one game a week but it is a big deal in other sports.

The only way I could see Texas joining the Big 10 would be if the Big 10 chooses to add more than one school. If they choose to do so, they could add 3-5 universities and then split into divisions that would make sense from a geographical standpoint. I am starting to think that this may be the future of the conferences. If the Big 10 does seek to add more than one university, I also think Pitt will get an invitation.


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Sub -
Forgot to answer one of your other questions.

I think that the RichRod "thing" in Michigan is working out just fine. I hope that it plays out exactly the way it has over the last two years. The guy is a grade A toolbox and I hope for nothing but failure for him.

I've been to the yearly coaches' luncheon for many, many years and you get a sense for who the coaches respect and who they don't respect. RichRod is clearly not liked by the other coaches. Zook at Illinois is a close second. Paterno's speech before DickRod's first year seemed playful enough but it contained just enough "jabs" that DickRod looked uncomfortable at times and caused some murmors in the crowd.

Sadly . . . I think that the DickRod experiment will come to a close in Ann Arbor faster than I'd like it to. At that point, they'll return to a higher level of football. Until that time, I will revel in Michigan's mediocrity.

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:58 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I've been to the yearly coaches' luncheon for many, many years


Jeez, you are really serious about this college football thing aren't you No. 9? 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:11 pm 
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NDL wrote:
I agree that academics are more important than many people believe in this equation. The Big 10 isn't going to just add another university because it wants to add one but it also isn't going to just add one because of a superior athletic program. If that were the criteria, they may as well look at WVU who has a solid football and basketball program. Plain and simple, that isn't going to happen.

From what I understand, the AAU membership is not so much a requirement as a desire. ND is not a member of the AAU from what I understand but the Big 10 would obviously overlook that and admit them if they desired to join.

I can't see Texas joining the Big 10. It doesn't make sense from their end, to me, to join the conference. They rule the Big 12 and get the biggest cut of the Big 12 TV contract payout pie. The Big 12 isn't exactly chopped liver, either. They have nice rivalry games in that conference and they couldn't continue all of them if they joined the Big 10.

Geography is actually something that I think also gets overlooked. Texas is really far away. If they join the Big 10, they are going to be competing in the Big 10 in all sports they choose to participate in because the Big 10 is an all sports conference. Can you see them sending their olympic sports teams to State College, Ann Arbor, and Madison on a regular basis? That's really far away and would wreak havoc on their travel funds. It's not a huge deal in football with only 12 games a year and one game a week but it is a big deal in other sports.

The only way I could see Texas joining the Big 10 would be if the Big 10 chooses to add more than one school. If they choose to do so, they could add 3-5 universities and then split into divisions that would make sense from a geographical standpoint. I am starting to think that this may be the future of the conferences. If the Big 10 does seek to add more than one university, I also think Pitt will get an invitation.


If Texas joins the Big 10, its decision will be driven by academic reasons, not athletic reasons. It would be a major coup for the Big 10 from both and academic and athletic standpoint. Again, I don't see it happening but it is not the crazy thought that some believe it to be.

The CIC/AAU matter was a live topic during the discussions. My memory may be a bit faulty on this particular topic but I recall that Notre Dame joining the AAU and receiving the benefits of the CIC was a condition of the Big 10's invitation. Faculty at ND voted nearly unanimously "yes" but the Board of Trustees wanted to keep the football program independent.

As for the $$$ issue, I'd simply point out that the Gator Bowl - which previously took the #2 Big East team - dropped the Big East in favor of a match up between #4/#5 Big Ten team versus a #5/#6 SEC team. Now . . . is the 4th or 5th place Big 10 team better than the Big East runner-up? This year, the question would have been whether Wisconsin or Northwestern is better than Pittsburgh or West Virginia. Or, is the 5th or 6th place SEC team better than the Big East runner up? This year, the question would ahve been whether Georgia, Tennessee or Mississippi better than Pitt or WVU. I certainly don't think that any of those teams are head and shoulders better. But . . in the eyes of the Gator Bowl committee, they think that they can put more butts in the seats and more money into the local economy by matching up middle of the pack Big 10 and SEC schools than they could with the Big East runner up. Just an example of why the $$$ won't be drying up for the Big 10 athletic departments.

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:16 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
I've been to the yearly coaches' luncheon for many, many years


Jeez, you are really serious about this college football thing aren't you No. 9? 8-) 8-) 8-)


Football Saturdays in the fall are very, very special. :lol: Wouldn't give up my season tickets for the world. I'm hoping that ZM will come to Iowa City this fall to see PSU play at Kinnick. It would be a blast.

And, let's face it . . . my two favorite pro teams are the Pirates and the KC Chiefs. Probably the worst combination possible with the possible exception of some mope who might like the Pirates and the Buffalo Bills!!!! :lol:

I don't follow hockey. I lost any interest in NBA basketball (was a Milwaukee Bucks fan; saw Kareem play there as a youngster) and the Iowa Hawkeye basketball team could be the worst D-1 team in the country.

About the only semblance of success for me as a fan is college football. Also doesn't hurt that I used to work with a number of people in the AD and have gone on recruiting trips with some of the current football coaching staff.

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Az Bucco fan wrote:
No. 9 wrote:
I've been to the yearly coaches' luncheon for many, many years


Jeez, you are really serious about this college football thing aren't you No. 9? 8-) 8-) 8-)


Joe Paterno's 5-10 minute presentation is worth the effort to go to the luncheon. The man is ridiculously funny. When he and Joe Tiller, Purdue's old coach, got going with one another it was pure comedy.

COME TO PENN STATE!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:00 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
the Iowa Hawkeye basketball team could be the worst D-1 team in the country.


"Acapulco" Lute Olson could not be happy. 8-) 8-) 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:21 pm 
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Az -
You got that right. Oh for the days of Lute Olson . . .
No. 9

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:32 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:

Football Saturdays in the fall are very, very special. :lol: Wouldn't give up my season tickets for the world. I'm hoping that ZM will come to Iowa City this fall to see PSU play at Kinnick. It would be a blast..


I'm putting it on my calendar, and have started putting change in the canning jars.

I have enough black and gold stuff to pass...

Want to see the future PSU coach up close! :shock:

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:10 am 
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If you've been to State College than you've already seen Tom Bradley; no need to see him at Iowa.


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 Post subject: Re: Pitt to Big 10
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:31 pm 
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ZelieMike wrote:
Want to see the future PSU coach up close! :shock: ZM


BLASPHEMY!!!

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