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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:09 pm 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
I often agree with drafting the best athlete available, but you do have to balance that with the needs of your team. If the best player available in the first round had been a quarterback, you think it would be wise to draft him when you have $100 million invested in Ben? It's not that black-and-white.

Also, the notion that the Steelers never draft for position is laughable.

Yep, it sure is easier to win an argument when you make up what the other guy says. I didn't say that the Steelers have never drafted for position, and I don't think anyone else did, either. And on those rare occasions when they DID draft to fill a specific need, how did that work out?
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Troy Edwards is the first that comes to mind.

Now it looks like you've taken my side of the argument. The Troy Edwards pick is a poor argument in favor of drafting to fill a specific need.
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I see this draft as filling some luxury needs without filling any pressing needs (Except receiver).

I agree somewhat, not totally. A second running back is not a luxury in today's game, particularly when your team 1) emphasizes the run, and 2) has a number 1 back who is coming off of a broken leg and only weighs 209 pounds.
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- The Steelers had one of the worst offensive lines in football last year (sack statistics show that). They lost the best lineman from that already bad line and have others in their final contract year. They did little to upgrade that this offseason, signing a castoff center and not drafting a lineman until the 4th round. That leaves the line very weak this year and even weaker down the road.

I agree with you that last year's line sucked. I think that most of that can be blamed on the center, who blocked like a three year old girl. The center is the key to the entire offensive line. He makes the calls on blocking assignments.

There were seven offensive linemen taken before the Steelers had a pick. Do you really think that the eighth best lineman would have been all that helpful? Also, the Steelers have three tackles already. They believe that Kemoeatu (sp?) is ready to step in at LG. Their biggest need is a center. When was the first center chosen? With the 28th pick of the second roundl. Do you really believe that they should have taken that guy in the first round? Or in the second in place of a wide receiver who you already identified as their best pick of the day?
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- Drafting a RB in the first round is always questionable since you can get good RBs in late rounds.

Yes, that's right. You CAN get a good RB later in the draft. It's far more likely that you won't, though.
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Look at the Steelers' own Willie Parker, Bam Morris, Barry Foster ... look at the 1,000 yard rusher the Denver Broncos plug in virtually every year.

Look at Franco Harris. Or, more recently, look at Adrian Peterson. Look at Steven Jackson. Look at Larry Johnson. Look at LaDanian Tomlinson. Look at Shaun Alexander. Look at Jamal Lewis. Just to name six All-Pro running backs out of the 25 running backs chosen in the first round since 2000. Do you think that 24% of all running backs chosen in later rounds ever make All-Pro?
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The steeler's have a weak line, have the NFL's leading rusher, yet they draft a RB first. Further, statistics show that RBs have the shortest average career span of any position, so that means the numbers say there is a reasonable chance the Steelers won't get full return on their investment.

LOL, you're arguing against yourself again. The fact that RBs have the shortest average career span of any position is a argument FOR drafting another RB, not against it. Especially when the incumbent is undersized and coming off of a severe injury. And that weak line was blocking for the NFL's leading rusher. That weak line COULD run block. Either that or Willie Parker is better than Jim Brown ever was.
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Mendennhall could be a very good PLAYER but that doesn't mean it was a good PICK, not if you can get the same type of player later in the draft (which, at that position, you almost always can).

That makes no sense. Good players are what you want. You can trade the excess at a position if necessary, but, as I said, today's football requires more than one RB.
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- Again, while ignoring the glaring needs at OL, DL and CB, the steelers drafted two linebackers (the position they spend the first two picks on last year). Is this an efficient use of their picks?

Yes, because backup linebackers form the core of your special teams units. Were you pleased with the performance of the Steelers' special teams units last year? I'd say that their special teams were worse than their offensive line, which at least could run block.
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- While ignoring the glaring needs at OL, DL and CB, the steelers drafted a QB, the same position where then have $100 million invested in a starter and a very capable backup. Is it nice to have another option at QB in Dixon for the post-Batch years ... sure. But not while ignoring your glaring needs.
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How many mid to late round All-Pro linemen or corners can you name? Any pick after the third round is a crap shoot.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:28 am 
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When the did draft for a specific need, how did that work out? Bad with Troy Edwards. Fine with Bruener and Chad Scott, both were legitimate NFL starters for at least 7 years. Excellent with the 87 defensive backs. Woodson is a hall of famer, Delton Hall was a two year starter before he got hurt and Thomas Everett was an all-pro safety.

I agree having two running backs is not a luxury in today's game. I'm all about two running backs, I just don't like using a first round pick on a back (notice I never said "Never draft a first round back.")
When you say "The fact that RBs have the shortest average career span of any position is a argument FOR drafting another RB, not against it" ... I agree. When did I say you shouldn't draft another RB? Show me that. I just said it wasn't smart to draft one in the first round. The fact you're admitting my point about RB career span is evidence to support MY point about drafting them in the first round. You'll need RBs every couple years, so you the numbers say you won't get the same return on your first round $$ at that position as you would at, say, one of the lines where the average career length is longer. True you might at any position, but statistically, it's most likely to happen there. But, again, I never said NEVER draft a back first. More of a general rule of thumb. Had they draft this RB first, the WR second and an OL or DL third, I could have lived with that. I wouldn't say it was the most efficient draft, but at lest they would have attempted to address the holes on their lines.

As for the OL, glad you agree it sucked. And I agree much of it was center. But Hartwig is a cast off who has an injury history. He should be an upgrade, but that hardly fixes everything. Even *if* things are OK this year, they still have some contacts up after this year, and you ignored my point about the OL down the road.

To answer your question, I never insisted on an OL in the first round. I never suggested a center period. If there was no adequate OL in the first round the go with the WR first and get an OL in the second or attempt to trade down (which they may have). A guard or tackle in the first two round was essentiall -- even third round I coudl take, but I definitely think they neglected the future of the position. That will have some affect this year and a definite affect next year. I think they could pick up a complementary running back in the third or later. You can still draft the best available player at one of a couple positions and not Troy Edwards yourself.

You ignored my points about ignoring DL and CB entirely. How can you honestly say that was smart? What possible defense can you give of not drafting a single defensive lineman for a team that's entire defensive line will be 30 or older next year? A team whose DL took some serious steps back when Aaron Smith was out. You, also contradicted yourself by saying the backup Linebackers are the core of special teams. I thought you weren't supposed to draft for specific needs?

It's obvious that you "have it out" for me. When I make good points, sound arguments and logical opinions you won't hear it because they are coming from me. It makes no sense for me to respond to your posts as it wastes my time, so I'm going to use the ignore button.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:16 pm 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
It's obvious that you "have it out" for me. When I make good points, sound arguments and logical opinions you won't hear it because they are coming from me. It makes no sense for me to respond to your posts as it wastes my time, so I'm going to use the ignore button.

(1) You're assuming you actually make "good points, sound arguments and logical opinions." I would let other people be the judge of that.

(2) Your opinions are not unassailable, and neither are Sisy's. Making "good points, sound arguments and logical opinions" does not shield you from others pointing out where you may have gone astray. This is why we have debate.

(3) Hiding from those who criticize you (by using the ignore button) does not foster intellectual honesty.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:12 pm 
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Willton wrote:

(3) Hiding from those who criticize you (by using the ignore button) does not foster intellectual honesty.


Ha! When I think of "intellectual" anything, this message board is the first thing to pop into my mind...

The Unofficial Pittsburgh Pirates Message Board: Beacon of Intellectual Honesty in an Otherwise Failing World.

I like it...can we put it in the banner?? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:26 pm 
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Mayor

What is the point of posting on a board if everyone agrees? Have some thick skin. Goodness knows my skin is thick. Many of the people who post in here have blasted my opinions. Because they dont like what I say over and over, they set up an ignore feature. I find it funny because going on 16 years, the same people dont like what the Pirates have done over and over.......and over, yet they cant use the ignore feature.

Back to this topic, as stated before you cant judge a draft untill much later. On the surface it looks like Colbert ignored needs or filling weaknesses. Time will tell.

Everyone wants to make a point and feel that they are right. Guess what, untill the Pirates win, its hard to prove me wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:19 pm 
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Mayor Mystery wrote:
When the did draft for a specific need, how did that work out? Bad with Troy Edwards. Fine with Bruener and Chad Scott, both were legitimate NFL starters for at least 7 years. Excellent with the 87 defensive backs. Woodson is a hall of famer, Delton Hall was a two year starter before he got hurt and Thomas Everett was an all-pro safety.

Well now, if you're going to say that drafting Woodson was an example of drafting for need, you're going to win the argument easily. Woodson was by FAR the best available athlete that year. You're not drafting to fill a specific need every time the best guy available happens to play that position. You're drafting to fill a need when you bypass superior athletes to pick a guy at a specific position, which is what you are saying the Steelers should have done this year. As I remember it, most people were shocked that Woodson was still around for the 10th pick. If you're going to say that Hall, Everett and Bruener were all examples of drafting for need, who was the best available athlete when those picks were made?

Quote:
I agree having two running backs is not a luxury in today's game. I'm all about two running backs, I just don't like using a first round pick on a back (notice I never said "Never draft a first round back.")
When you say "The fact that RBs have the shortest average career span of any position is a argument FOR drafting another RB, not against it" ... I agree. When did I say you shouldn't draft another RB? Show me that. I just said it wasn't smart to draft one in the first round. The fact you're admitting my point about RB career span is evidence to support MY point about drafting them in the first round. You'll need RBs every couple years, so you the numbers say you won't get the same return on your first round $$ at that position as you would at, say, one of the lines where the average career length is longer. True you might at any position, but statistically, it's most likely to happen there. But, again, I never said NEVER draft a back first. More of a general rule of thumb. Had they draft this RB first, the WR second and an OL or DL third, I could have lived with that. I wouldn't say it was the most efficient draft, but at lest they would have attempted to address the holes on their lines.

As I pointed out, 24% of all running backs chosen in the first round this century went on to make the All-Pro team. What percentage of backs in later rounds do as well? You MIGHT get a good back later in the draft. Most likely you'll be lucky if you get a kick returner or a third down guy. When you draft one in the first round you are far more likely to get a quality runner.

Quote:
As for the OL, glad you agree it sucked. And I agree much of it was center. But Hartwig is a cast off who has an injury history. He should be an upgrade, but that hardly fixes everything. Even *if* things are OK this year, they still have some contacts up after this year, and you ignored my point about the OL down the road.

To answer your question, I never insisted on an OL in the first round. I never suggested a center period. If there was no adequate OL in the first round the go with the WR first and get an OL in the second or attempt to trade down (which they may have). A guard or tackle in the first two round was essentiall -- even third round I coudl take, but I definitely think they neglected the future of the position. That will have some affect this year and a definite affect next year. I think they could pick up a complementary running back in the third or later. You can still draft the best available player at one of a couple positions and not Troy Edwards yourself.

I see no point to wasting a first or second round pick on the 10th best player at any position. And you keep insisting that they would have gotten a quality back later in the draft. Who? What are the odds that they would get a quality back in the mid to late rounds? Slim.

Quote:
You ignored my points about ignoring DL and CB entirely. How can you honestly say that was smart? What possible defense can you give of not drafting a single defensive lineman for a team that's entire defensive line will be 30 or older next year? A team whose DL took some serious steps back when Aaron Smith was out. You, also contradicted yourself by saying the backup Linebackers are the core of special teams. I thought you weren't supposed to draft for specific needs?

I can't say whether it was smart or not. I can say that any production you get out of a guy taken after the third round is luck. And I never said that the Steelers took those linebackers to fill a specific need. I said that those linebackers DO fill a specific need. For all you or I know, the Steelers took them because they thought they were the best players available. The contradiction is yours, because they do fill a need, and you are the guy who insists that you should draft to fill needs.

Quote:
It's obvious that you "have it out" for me. When I make good points, sound arguments and logical opinions you won't hear it because they are coming from me. It makes no sense for me to respond to your posts as it wastes my time, so I'm going to use the ignore button.

LOL. You give yourself way too much importance. I don't have it out for you, I merely disagree. I'm sorry that you only like to read "attaboy" posts. I'm not that insecure myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:30 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Mayor

What is the point of posting on a board if everyone agrees? Have some thick skin. Goodness knows my skin is thick. Many of the people who post in here have blasted my opinions. Because they dont like what I say over and over, they set up an ignore feature. I find it funny because going on 16 years, the same people dont like what the Pirates have done over and over.......and over, yet they cant use the ignore feature.

Back to this topic, as stated before you cant judge a draft untill much later. On the surface it looks like Colbert ignored needs or filling weaknesses. Time will tell.

Everyone wants to make a point and feel that they are right. Guess what, untill the Pirates win, its hard to prove me wrong.


BH, I have no problem being criticized. I enjoy a good, respectful debate. It's the disrespectful criticizers I have a problem with. There's a history with two specific posters ... they're the total disrespect, never admit they're wrong on a single point, double-standard types. It's not worth my time to answer their criticisms because no matter what I say, they'll disagree, so I've decided to ignore them.

You, on the other hand, I welcome your criticisms or those of most others on the board.

As for this specific topic, I agree you can't totally judge a draft until a few years later. However, you can judge the decisions made on draft day immediately based on the info available.

I can't defend this draft when it totally ignored 2 of the team's 4 biggest needs and nearly ignored another.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:25 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Worst Steeler Draft??????

You may be right. Not one player has played a down...and its the worst?

How about judging the draft 3 or 4 years from now before making such claims.


Interesting position you are taking here BH... hmmm Maybe you should take your own advice for the boys across the parking lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:

Interesting position you are taking here BH... hmmm Maybe you should take your own advice for the boys across the parking lot.


What advice?

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:11 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:

Interesting position you are taking here BH... hmmm Maybe you should take your own advice for the boys across the parking lot.


What advice?


How about judging the Pirates 3 or 4 years from now when Huntington has had his chance to effectively establish his system?


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:19 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:

Interesting position you are taking here BH... hmmm Maybe you should take your own advice for the boys across the parking lot.


What advice?


How about judging the Pirates 3 or 4 years from now when Huntington has had his chance to effectively establish his system?


In my best BH impersonation:

"They have been bad for 15 years. You don't think that is long enough? I will completely refuse to acknowledge the fact that it was the previous GM's complete inability to evaluate talent that has gotten us here and instead harp on why we don't just start spending more money. Also, Frank Zappa rules."


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:33 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:

How about judging the Pirates 3 or 4 years from now when Huntington has had his chance to effectively establish his system?


I'll give you that. However with the Pirates lack of talent from majors to minors, even if they draft a stud or two, they'll need more talent to win. If I was the GM, I'd be trading whatever talent that wont be here in 2 or 3 years for as many prospects as possible. Clean house. So far its the same stinky shack of a team.

Thats the difference with the Steelers...they have maintained enough talent that even when some drafts were not productive...they still could compete to win and have not had long periods of losing.. The NFL has a cap too so the money is not a reason to draft a player like it has been for the baseball on the cheap owners of the Pirates.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:03 pm 
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bullishhitter wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:

How about judging the Pirates 3 or 4 years from now when Huntington has had his chance to effectively establish his system?


I'll give you that. However with the Pirates lack of talent from majors to minors, even if they draft a stud or two, they'll need more talent to win. If I was the GM, I'd be trading whatever talent that wont be here in 2 or 3 years for as many prospects as possible. Clean house. So far its the same stinky shack of a team.

Thats the difference with the Steelers...they have maintained enough talent that even when some drafts were not productive...they still could compete to win and have not had long periods of losing.. The NFL has a cap too so the money is not a reason to draft a player like it has been for the baseball on the cheap owners of the Pirates.


I agree.

I wish the Pirates could be more like the Steelers in personnel decisions and maintaining talent. First things first though, the Pirates have to dig themselves out of this tremendous hole made by Mr. Bonifay and Mr. Littlefield. You are right, our talent levels are scarce at EVERY level of this organization.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:45 am 
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Drafting a running back and big target reciever like Sweed will have ben get sacked less often and he will be able to get rid of the ball quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:21 pm 
Ryann wrote:
Drafting a running back and big target reciever like Sweed will have ben get sacked less often and he will be able to get rid of the ball quicker.


So would drafting a lineman. I love the picks of Sweet and Mendenhall but you need to get a lineman in there too. I can't believe they drafted two linebackers high.


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 Post subject: Re: Worst Steelers draft in a long time
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:16 am 
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Another thing you must look at is what was out there when they drafted in the first round. When it got to us other teams were pulling linemen out of the 2nd and 3rd rounds and drafting them in the first.


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