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 Post subject: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:51 pm 
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Okay, so here is the deal.

I cannot fix the keeper designation (I messed up Rich's keepers a bit) until I set the draft order.

My wife conducted a random draw to set the draft order. I had nothing to do with the process. She simply put numbers 1 through 12 on 12 slips of paper, and pulled them from a hat in the following order:

3, 12, 7, 8, 5, 11, 10, 4, 2, 6, 9, 1

That makes our draft order as follows:

1. Beerman
2. Dan
3. Perez' Burnt Cookies
4. Bonds' Bombers
5. King-Kang
6. Rich' Best
7. Flying Beagles
8. #21
9. Studs on Steroids
10. Bierbauer's
11. BuccoBlast21
12. Bucfan's team

Should anybody have issues with the veracity of the draft selections - by my wife, mind you, where she had no clue what number meant what freaking team - let me know, and I will figure something out.

I did the random draw because we definitely did not have a consensus on the manner of setting the draft, and I really did not want to set the draft on reverse order, since we did it by random draw last year and that seemed to work out well.

Because the draft is random order, it will be a snake draft. I fully understand the reasoning behind the straight draft, since it evens out the playing field, but (1) we are down to 8 keepers and (2) the 5-year keeper limit is approaching for long-time members, since we instituted the 5-year limit as part of the 2012 season. The 5th year runs at the end of the 2016 season for players acquired in the 2012 season and still part of his original team.

That included Yu Darvish and Jason Kipnis for my team, but not any more ... Paul Goldschmidt, however, will not be a keeper for me beyond this year and next.

So that is my approach. I think that the approach is reasonable, fair, gives managers an equal chance at improving their teams, rewards managers who take a hit by selecting young players and sticking through the lean years, but also rewards managers who deal players, make moves, etc.

Any protests should be noted here. I would not be pushing to set the draft, except that (1) I need to fix the keepers and (2) the keeper list, when finalized after the draft order is set, allows us to figure out who is still available on the open market.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:46 am 
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I have now revised the keeper lists for all teams, and the list should comport with your keeper selections. Go to the league site, the "League" tab, and select "Rosters" in that forum to list all keepers for all teams.

If your keepers do not line up with your actual selections, please advise as to what happened and I will consider revising the list for you. However, I will not be likely to amend your keeper list to remove a player who has been recently injured and replace him with a healthy player.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:42 pm 
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Then it will become a very interesting season for some of my Keepers and what i will do with them.. keep them as long as those 5 years or when the price
is right.

let me see this right, players that became keepers for the start of the 2012 season and still on the roster as keeper at start of 2015 are now on their 4th year?
so they can only can stay a keeper for me on the 2016 season max.

example GIANCARLO STANTON became keeper in 2011 season and is for the 5th time a keeper on my team. but due to the 5year deal starting in 2012 this will be his 4th year as a keeper for me. Stanton Can be kept for the 2016 season and after that he will become free agent or be traded?

then my Keepers in years on this team from 2012

Giancarlo Stanton 4th 2011
Stephen Strassburg 4th 2011
Robinson Cano 4th time 2012
Jacoby Ellsbury 4th time 2012
Josh Donaldson 2nd time 2014
Kris Bryant 1st time 2015
Jorge Soler 1st time 2015
Mash Tanaka 1st time 2015

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:36 am 
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Just one question. If I acquired Miggy in a trade last year, is this my first of 5 years as a keeper?


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:36 pm 
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The DUTCH guy wrote:
let me see this right, players that became keepers for the start of the 2012 season and still on the roster as keeper at start of 2015 are now on their 4th year?
so they can only can stay a keeper for me on the 2016 season max.

Yes.

We instituted the 5-year limitation in 2012 so the fact you had a keeper in 2011 does not have an effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:38 pm 
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Scoobiedoo wrote:
Just one question. If I acquired Miggy in a trade last year, is this my first of 5 years as a keeper?

The player is deemed to have joined the team the year of the trade, if he was a keeper at the time of the deal. Otherwise, a manager could get a keeper in a deal in early April and effectively have him as a keeper for 6 years.

So this is Miggy's 2nd year for you as a keeper. You get this season, and seasons 2016 through and including 2018, at which point Miggy will be 62 years old and eligible for social security.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Scoobiedoo wrote:
Just one question. If I acquired Miggy in a trade last year, is this my first of 5 years as a keeper?

The player is deemed to have joined the team the year of the trade, if he was a keeper at the time of the deal. Otherwise, a manager could get a keeper in a deal in early April and effectively have him as a keeper for 6 years.

So this is Miggy's 2nd year for you as a keeper. You get this season, and seasons 2016 through and including 2018, at which point Miggy will be 62 years old and eligible for social security.


This is flawed Bucfan. The whole keeper thing has been very unclear since we started this. I have had questions over the past several years only to get them ignored. All keepers should be classified now on how many years they are under control of each team. I will even go back and do this for the league.

Also, the fact you reset a team's keeper clock just because you trade them is what I am talking about being flawed. If you trade a player in real baseball, it doesn't reset his contract. There are too many ways to manipulate system by having that flexibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:13 pm 
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Here are the Keepers and their timeline according to what Bucfan said above. I still think the keepers should not reset when they are traded. This was never mentioned when we did the keepers and there is no doubt it would have influenced the way I would managed my team.

The year is when they will be free agents:

#21
Hanley Ramirez - 2017
Adam Wainwright - 2018
Adrian Beltre - 2019
Miguel Cabrera - 2019
Kole Calhoun - 2019
Aroldis Chapman - 2019
Corey Dickerson - 2019
Prince Fielder - 2019

The Beermen
Adrian Gonzalez - 2017
Max Scherzer - 2017
Andrew Jones - 2018
David Price - 2018
Yasiel Puig - 2018
Albert Pujols - 2018
Justin Upton - 2019
Yoenis Cespedes - 2019

Bierbauer's Polka
Starlin Castro - 2017
Matt Holliday - 2017
Chris Sale - 2017
Jose Abreu - 2019
Zach Greinke - 2019
Corey Kluber - 2019
Dustin Pedroia - 2019
Carlos Santana - 2019

Bonds' Bombers
Ryan Braun - 2017
Clayton Kershaw - 2017
Anthony Rizzo - 2017
Sonny Gray - 2019
Ian Kinsler - 2019
Anthony Rendon - 2019
Jose Reyes - 2019
Koji Uehara - 2019

Bucfan Marauders
Cole Hamels - 2017
Paul Goldschimdt - 2017
Evan Longoria - 2017
Troy Tulowitzki - 2017
Carlos Gonzalez - 2019
Mike Trout - 2019
Joey Votto - 2019
Jordan Zimmerman - 2019

BuccoBlast21
Gio Gonzalez - 2017
Jon Lester - 2017
Hunter Pence - 2017
Todd Frazier - 2019
Kelsey Jensen - 2019
Tyson Ross - 2019
Jeff Samarazija - 2019
Huston Street - 2019

Dan's DL Team
Starling Marte - 2017
Chris Archer - 2019
Lucas Duda - 2019
Hisashi Iwakuma - 2019
Jake McGee - 2019
Marcell Ozuna - 2019
Joc Pederson - 2019
David Wright - 2020

The Flying Beagles
Felix Hernandez - 2017
Edwin Encarnacion - 2018
Justin Verlander - 2018
Jose Bautista - 2019
Carlos Gomez - 2019
Dee Gordon - 2019
Lance Lynn - 2019
Mark Melancon - 2019

King-Kang
Andrew McCutcheon - 2017
Craig Kimbrel - 2017
Chris Davis - 2018
Freddie Freeman - 2018
Buster Posey - 2018
Jose Altuve - 2019
Nelson Cruz - 2019
Matt Harvey - 2019

Perez' Burnt Cookies
Xavier Bogaerts - 2019
Madison Bumgarner - 2019
Gerrit Cole - 2019
Bryce Harper - 2019
Manny Machado - 2019
Kyle Seagar - 2019
George Springer - 2019
Christian Yelich - 2019

Rich's Best
Ian Desmond - 2017
Addison Reed - 2018
Michael Brantley - 2019
Johnny Cueto - 2019
Billy Hamilton - 2019
Ben Revere - 2019
Garrett Richards - 2019
Hyun-jin Ryu - 2019

Studs On Steroids #18
Robinson Cano - 2017
Giancarlo Stanton - 2017
Stephen Strasburg - 2017
Jacoby Ellsbury - 2017
Josh Donaldson - 2018
Kris Bryant - 2019
Jorge Soler - 2019
Masahiro Tanaka - 2019

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:23 pm 
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well i disagree.. example:

this would be the 2016 season and with stanton not longer to be able to keep, it would be more logic he was traded befor 2016 keepers would be set then right after.. keepers mostly are that good that other teams would defo trade for him at the end of the 2016 season to have him for sure, instead of risking him into a snake draft. and why would you not make use of a player all year who is a keeper for you.. i doubt a keeper in his last year for that team will be traded early..

so yeah... if its done then that team is lucky and have a complete extra year of STanton before he becomes keeper for that other team..

Otherwise if i would trade stanton just before end of 2016 , would a trade be done with the knowledge that before his player even will get an AB he has lost 1 year of being his keeper of STanton.. doesnt add up.. when traded a player has zero "keeperyears" behind his name again.

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:32 pm 
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from the total if 8 jeepers creepers x 12 team = 96 players total to be kept

according to the pre draft order of Yahoo --> top 96 are only 76 taken..

20 players are keepers outside the top 96 player ranking..

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:45 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
This is flawed Bucfan. The whole keeper thing has been very unclear since we started this. I have had questions over the past several years only to get them ignored. All keepers should be classified now on how many years they are under control of each team. I will even go back and do this for the league.

No, it has not been unclear. You have indeed asked about this issue, and I have answered, with the same response as to keeper status, the effect of trades, the commencement of the 5-year limit, etc.

Here is one thread for example:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12356&p=154134&hilit=keeper#p154134

I note that in this discussion, from January of 2014, I spoke about reducing the number of keepers to 6 beginning this year.

My bad. Forgot about that.

But the remainder of the information is exactly what I am positing in this thread, bucco. I am not sure who might have given you inconsistent information or failed to answer your questions about keepers, but it was not me.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:50 pm 
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bucco - when you reference the "end" of keeper status, you are referring to the beginning of the season, correct? Because I drafted Goldschmidt in 2012, obtained Tulo in trade in 2011, obtained Longoria in trade in 2011, etc., so all will be FA after the 2016 season (their fifth season on my team as a keeper).

Further, your proposal to have the keeper clock run out with the player makes my players very low value in trade, unless I deal them right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:48 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
This is flawed Bucfan. The whole keeper thing has been very unclear since we started this. I have had questions over the past several years only to get them ignored. All keepers should be classified now on how many years they are under control of each team. I will even go back and do this for the league.

No, it has not been unclear. You have indeed asked about this issue, and I have answered, with the same response as to keeper status, the effect of trades, the commencement of the 5-year limit, etc.

Here is one thread for example:

http://pittsburghsports.net/viewtopic.p ... er#p154134

I note that in this discussion, from January of 2014, I spoke about reducing the number of keepers to 6 beginning this year.

My bad. Forgot about that.

But the remainder of the information is exactly what I am positing in this thread, bucco. I am not sure who might have given you inconsistent information or failed to answer your questions about keepers, but it was not me.


You are correct and I apologize because I didn't recall that post nor did I react to it at the time. But it was two years after we started the keeper thing.

My point with all this isn't necessarily the rules, but the fact they were never spelled out until last season and we had been doing keeper for two years already.

As for the keeper thing resetting during a trade, I stand by my first statement that is a flawed rule. Let's say you have young Player A and I have young Player B. We acquire them and they become studs in their first year. When we get to the fifth year, they are both in their primes. Now, I can manipulate the system and just trade player A for player B and in reality, you and I end up using the keeper rule to keep a for a stud player for 7, 8 or 9 years. Might not be the same player, but nonetheless it's a star player on my team for more than the five years. The point of the keeper limit is to keep the league balanced. This goes in the face of that.

Listen, bucfan. This is fantasy baseball. It's business. So, I am not personally mad about this but from a fantasy context, I really don't think the league had a say in anything that happened with the keepers. End of rant.

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:49 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
bucco - when you reference the "end" of keeper status, you are referring to the beginning of the season, correct? Because I drafted Goldschmidt in 2012, obtained Tulo in trade in 2011, obtained Longoria in trade in 2011, etc., so all will be FA after the 2016 season (their fifth season on my team as a keeper).

Further, your proposal to have the keeper clock run out with the player makes my players very low value in trade, unless I deal them right now.


The year after their name is the year they become a free agent. So if it is says 2017, your last year is 2016.

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:35 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
The year after their name is the year they become a free agent. So if it is says 2017, your last year is 2016.

That is what I thought.

Thanks for the considerable work in listing the keepers.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:57 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
My point with all this isn't necessarily the rules, but the fact they were never spelled out until last season and we had been doing keeper for two years already.

The rules I proposed had been discussed in prior years.

I know that when he was commissioner, BBF proposed the 5-year keeper limit to try and increase competitiveness.

We discussed back in 2013 what would happen in the event of trades, and I understood the general feeling was to give managers incentive to acquire keeper players in trade. Personally, I think that it makes little sense to have the best players (keepers) yield lower trade return than lesser players, because the FA deadline is approaching.

bucco boy wrote:
As for the keeper thing resetting during a trade, I stand by my first statement that is a flawed rule. Let's say you have young Player A and I have young Player B. We acquire them and they become studs in their first year. When we get to the fifth year, they are both in their primes. Now, I can manipulate the system and just trade player A for player B and in reality, you and I end up using the keeper rule to keep a for a stud player for 7, 8 or 9 years. Might not be the same player, but nonetheless it's a star player on my team for more than the five years. The point of the keeper limit is to keep the league balanced. This goes in the face of that.

Okay. What you say is true.

But a manager with a player having a limited keeper time has incentive to deal him. Other managers now have very limited interest in obtaining the player, no?

There has to be some accommodation.

Maybe remaining keeper time plus 1 year? Something like that.

bucco boy wrote:
Listen, bucfan. This is fantasy baseball. It's business. So, I am not personally mad about this but from a fantasy context, I really don't think the league had a say in anything that happened with the keepers. End of rant.

I did not institute the keeper rules, bucco. BBF and Barrys broached the issue, I offered my take, BBF then proposed the 5-year limit and the managers agreed after the 2012 season. We discussed the keeper issue on the old Yahoo site for our league, but that site is no longer accessible, at least as far as I can tell. The discussion included keeper status after trades, and the idea that the keeper situation would be re-set.

I tried to play by the same rules when I became commissioner last year. I sure was not looking to change anything. And I certainly have no vested interest in doing it one way over another. I simply was following what I believed to be the existing rules, as I noted in January of 2014. If the managers want to vote on the issue, I certainly have no dispute doing so.

At this point, position me as favoring a league-wide vote. I think I should do so on the league site, since managers will check that site, while some do not check this forum. Again, I really am not looking to do anything other than follow what I believed the rules to be, and the rules as told to all managers back in 2012, 2013 and 2014.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
Scoobiedoo wrote:
Just one question. If I acquired Miggy in a trade last year, is this my first of 5 years as a keeper?

The player is deemed to have joined the team the year of the trade, if he was a keeper at the time of the deal. Otherwise, a manager could get a keeper in a deal in early April and effectively have him as a keeper for 6 years.

So this is Miggy's 2nd year for you as a keeper. You get this season, and seasons 2016 through and including 2018, at which point Miggy will be 62 years old and eligible for social security.



Same age as me then. For some reason I thought he was younger than me.


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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:25 pm 
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Bucfan wrote:
bucco boy wrote:
My point with all this isn't necessarily the rules, but the fact they were never spelled out until last season and we had been doing keeper for two years already.

The rules I proposed had been discussed in prior years.

I know that when he was commissioner, BBF proposed the 5-year keeper limit to try and increase competitiveness.

We discussed back in 2013 what would happen in the event of trades, and I understood the general feeling was to give managers incentive to acquire keeper players in trade. Personally, I think that it makes little sense to have the best players (keepers) yield lower trade return than lesser players, because the FA deadline is approaching.

bucco boy wrote:
As for the keeper thing resetting during a trade, I stand by my first statement that is a flawed rule. Let's say you have young Player A and I have young Player B. We acquire them and they become studs in their first year. When we get to the fifth year, they are both in their primes. Now, I can manipulate the system and just trade player A for player B and in reality, you and I end up using the keeper rule to keep a for a stud player for 7, 8 or 9 years. Might not be the same player, but nonetheless it's a star player on my team for more than the five years. The point of the keeper limit is to keep the league balanced. This goes in the face of that.

Okay. What you say is true.

But a manager with a player having a limited keeper time has incentive to deal him. Other managers now have very limited interest in obtaining the player, no?

There has to be some accommodation.

Maybe remaining keeper time plus 1 year? Something like that.

bucco boy wrote:
Listen, bucfan. This is fantasy baseball. It's business. So, I am not personally mad about this but from a fantasy context, I really don't think the league had a say in anything that happened with the keepers. End of rant.

I did not institute the keeper rules, bucco. BBF and Barrys broached the issue, I offered my take, BBF then proposed the 5-year limit and the managers agreed after the 2012 season. We discussed the keeper issue on the old Yahoo site for our league, but that site is no longer accessible, at least as far as I can tell. The discussion included keeper status after trades, and the idea that the keeper situation would be re-set.

I tried to play by the same rules when I became commissioner last year. I sure was not looking to change anything. And I certainly have no vested interest in doing it one way over another. I simply was following what I believed to be the existing rules, as I noted in January of 2014. If the managers want to vote on the issue, I certainly have no dispute doing so.

At this point, position me as favoring a league-wide vote. I think I should do so on the league site, since managers will check that site, while some do not check this forum. Again, I really am not looking to do anything other than follow what I believed the rules to be, and the rules as told to all managers back in 2012, 2013 and 2014.


I wasn't targeting you because I know you just became commish, but I remember asking questions and not getting any answers. Again, it's fantasy baseball. Just pride on the line. I don't remember anything above being discussed. I am still trying to figure out why we changed from a straight draft to a snake. We can go with what we have for now, but I think the whole thing needs to be laid out next offseason.

And I went back to the old threads on the Yahoo boards and there was nothing on those pages. It might have been initially discussed on UPPMB.

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:11 pm 
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so we can start?

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 Post subject: Re: Random draw draft order
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:34 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
I am still trying to figure out why we changed from a straight draft to a snake.

Two reasons:

(1) The reduction of the number of keepers evens out the competition a great deal.
(2) If we reduce the number of keepers, and institute a limit for how long a manager can keep a player (as we have done), then a straight draft is simply not fair.

A straight draft works for actual teams, since they keep their entire roster. Snake drafts are not perfect, but at least tend to even out the draft process.

I have my eye on 3 players for the first round this year. I can all but guarantee that all 3 are gone by the time I select.

Finally, I get that the draft is very important. It presents an excellent chance to snag a potential keeper. Keepers are also important. However, I think that keeping track of the team and making in-season moves are very, very important - perhaps not as recognized in importance, but important nonetheless.

For example, take a look at my team last year. My keepers from last season: Trout, Goldschmidt, Darvish, Harper, Kipnis, Tulowitzki, J. Fernandez, and Longoria.

Fernandez missed basically the entire year, Tulo missed 2 1/2 months (wow, what a shock), Kipnis missed 40 games, Darvish missed the last 2 months, Goldschmidt missed the last 2 months, Harper missed a zillion games yet again.

Six of my 8 keepers vastly underproduced - VASTLY.

My draft produced such winners as Jason Grilli, Brandon "DL" Belt, Jedd "Rhymes with" Gyorko, Kyle Seager (whom I cut 3 weeks into the season because of injuries to my MI), Hiroka Kuroda, Tommy Hunter, Dexter Fowler, Neftali Feliz, Marco Estrada, and Mike Moustakas.

http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com ... aftresults


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