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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:51 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


Come off it JC, what a sanctimonious bunch of crap.

I want all my grants to get funded this cycle, but that doesn't mean I "expect" it to happen. I would be an idiot to expect such unlikely things as a bar for being satisfied or content. We've heard this before last year when you professed that you expected a 57 win team to make the playoffs in 2011. I know yoou are not a fool, but why make such ridiculous comments. The world isn't black and white, there are levels of success and levels of failure. Your comment is Ricky Bobby "if I ain't first I'm last" nonsense.


Qualifying for the playoffs is not finishing first. I'm not advocating a "Ricky Bobby" approach. I'm merely reinforcing my view that success is measured by playoff appearances and legitimate chances at a championship, and not by .500 seasons.

I also never used the word "expect," which you put in quotes for some reason. As a fan, I'm not going to lower my standards just because my favorite team has sucked for a long while. Putting the Pirates on a sliding scale for success rewards the team for its failures and lowers fan standards. That's not the kind of fan I am. It's not sanctimonious; it's consistent and -- so long as championships are the actual goal of a franchise -- it's the same standard to which the Pirates hold themselves.

But hey, if you want to call the standards held by the PBC, its owners, managers and players "nonsense," don't let me stop you...


I'm fairly certain that the PBC's standards didn't mean playoffs in 2011. If so then everyone in charge should have resigned. Its not about lowering expectations, its about having realistic expectations. Of course they (or anyone) will say that the playoffs are the goal, but that doesn't mean they expect to achieve that every year. If they were approaching 2011 in that manner then they were dillusional. A winning season for a franchise buried under 19 years of failure is a success. Its not unqualified, but its a success nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:59 pm 
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What about 2012?


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
What about 2012?

What about it?

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
What about 2012?

What about it?


Barrys' prior post talked about 2011. I then asked about 2012. Was it so unclear that you required clarification?


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
I'm fairly certain that the PBC's standards didn't mean playoffs in 2011. If so then everyone in charge should have resigned. Its not about lowering expectations, its about having realistic expectations. Of course they (or anyone) will say that the playoffs are the goal, but that doesn't mean they expect to achieve that every year. If they were approaching 2011 in that manner then they were dillusional. A winning season for a franchise buried under 19 years of failure is a success. Its not unqualified, but its a success nonetheless.


Expectations do not lower the standard. The standard is playoffs = success and a chance to win a championship. Period.

The PBC's owners, managers and players have made clear that the standard is the playoffs and the goal is a World Series title. I'll be disappointed each year the Pirates fail to qualify for the playoffs, because that means they have fallen below the standard and lost an opportunity to achieve the goal. Moreover, the PBC's owners, managers and players have consistently (and rightfully) dismissed the "winning season" talk as irrelevant.

I guess I'm more supportive of the PBC's overall view, which you appear to perceive as "nonsense."


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:29 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
What about 2012?

What about it?


Barrys' prior post talked about 2011. I then asked about 2012. Was it so unclear that you required clarification?

Your question was very general. I was hoping you would be more specific regarding your question about 2012.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:35 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Finishing >.500 will be undeniably great.

It's just... I for one still believe this team is better than they have been playing the last 18.

The Bucs will finish with >81 wins, but it's going to be a polarizing offseason as the fans, both long loyal, bandwagon and back-and-forth, debate 'what went wrong?', etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:00 pm 
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While the ultimate goal is a World Series victory, what I'm really looking for is longer term.

I want the team to contend for the playoffs every year, actually make the playoffs some years, and occasionally win the World Series. Exactly like St. Louis does.

Given the recent history, a season that breaks .500 but does not result in a playoff berth would still be a success, especially since we could reasonably expect to be even better next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:42 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
I'm fairly certain that the PBC's standards didn't mean playoffs in 2011. If so then everyone in charge should have resigned. Its not about lowering expectations, its about having realistic expectations. Of course they (or anyone) will say that the playoffs are the goal, but that doesn't mean they expect to achieve that every year. If they were approaching 2011 in that manner then they were dillusional. A winning season for a franchise buried under 19 years of failure is a success. Its not unqualified, but its a success nonetheless.


Expectations do not lower the standard. The standard is playoffs = success and a chance to win a championship. Period.

The PBC's owners, managers and players have made clear that the standard is the playoffs and the goal is a World Series title. I'll be disappointed each year the Pirates fail to qualify for the playoffs, because that means they have fallen below the standard and lost an opportunity to achieve the goal. Moreover, the PBC's owners, managers and players have consistently (and rightfully) dismissed the "winning season" talk as irrelevant.

I guess I'm more supportive of the PBC's overall view, which you appear to perceive as "nonsense."


I fail to see how you can be disappointed in a season based solely on a failed objective that is not truly possible. 57 wins to playoffs just doesn't happen. This year's version is just a lesser variation of the theme.

I do not believe that the PBS has such unrealistic expectations. If they indeed do, then they have a poor ability to evaluate their own talent and situation. If they do, then they should have resigned do to a complete failure to reach the postseason in 2008-2011. They can say those platitudesabout the playoffs in the media all they want, but they arn't idiots. I'm fairly certain they knew the 2010 Pirates were not playoff contenders.

My definition of success for the 2012 Pirates (in March) included no expectation of the postseason. I don't think anyone here predicted or expected as such. I expected the Bucs to win 75ish games with sustainable improvement from building block players to set the stage for 2013. For the most part they have done just that. I'm fairly certain that you were alone in setting your goal as playoffs and anything less is a disappointment. Of course things change and I can see why people may be disappointed now after our position a month ago, but that has nothing to do with the hardline preseason goal of playoffs or bust.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
My definition of success for the 2012 Pirates (in March) included no expectation of the postseason. I don't think anyone here predicted or expected as such. I expected the Bucs to win 75ish games with sustainable improvement from building block players to set the stage for 2013. For the most part they have done just that. I'm fairly certain that you were alone in setting your goal as playoffs and anything less is a disappointment. Of course things change and I can see why people may be disappointed now after our position a month ago, but that has nothing to do with the hardline preseason goal of playoffs or bust.

While I wasn't posting here at the beginning of the season, my goal was certainly the playoffs. No playoffs, team under .500, would have been a failure, and a .500 record missing the playoffs would have been a moral victory.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:29 pm 
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I would be "content" with a winning record. Fuck content! I WANT PLAYOFFS!!! October baseball for the Pirates! For real...


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:02 am 
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You don't get any orange wedges for making the playoffs, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:16 am 
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SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
You don't get any orange wedges for making the playoffs, either.

I get that, but I believe - check this on Baseball Reference, but I am pretty confident about this - that no team ever won the World Series without first making it to post-season play.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:47 am 
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I think some of us are confusing "content" and "happy", but that's another matter. As for numbers, a quick look at the MLB standings, Wild Card sort tab, shows that if you're over .500, you're a playoff contender by virtue of being in the Wild Card race.

If you're under .500, you have a lot of ground to make up.

So this year, finishing over .500 will likely also put us in the race, so I'll take it.

I'll also take the improvement given that our FA signings haven't contributed at all. Trades certainly have helped, but not FA's. So that means the home grown core is coming together.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:20 am 
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Bucfan wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
You don't get any orange wedges for making the playoffs, either.

I get that, but I believe - check this on Baseball Reference, but I am pretty confident about this - that no team ever won the World Series without first making it to post-season play.


I haven't checked, but I'm at least 80% confident you're correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:33 am 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Bucfan wrote:
SUPERCHARGED APE wrote:
You don't get any orange wedges for making the playoffs, either.

I get that, but I believe - check this on Baseball Reference, but I am pretty confident about this - that no team ever won the World Series without first making it to post-season play.


I haven't checked, but I'm at least 80% confident you're correct.



Wait, I thought this was a hindsight question. Are we now talking about what we'd be content with if today were October 3rd?

You guys need to confirm my vantage point for this discussion.

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