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 Post subject: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:56 am 
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A month or two ago someone asked if any of us will be content with a winning season. At the time I said to myself "I will!!!"

A one game playoff is icing on the cake.

Our team isn't that great. Look at the Cardinals' batting order compared to ours. Huntington has done a decent job assembling a team but we
simply don't have enough hitting. And our manager doesn't get the same effort from his players that Dusty Baker gets. That team believes.

Aside from Cutch and all the homeruns how is this current team better offensively than the Buc team that lost 104 games? The batting average is
the same. I'm not convinced at all that we've turned the corner. There's no guarantee that our bull pen and Burnett will be as good next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:16 am 
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The way they're playing now, yes i'd be hAPPY if they finished with a winning record. But still very dissapointed on how badly they've played down the stretch. Content? no.

But you're right. I was looking at the batting averages of the Cardinals lineups compared to the Pirates. Huge difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:51 am 
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Clevelandsux wrote:
The way they're playing now, yes i'd be hAPPY if they finished with a winning record. But still very dissapointed on how badly they've played down the stretch. Content? no.

But you're right. I was looking at the batting averages of the Cardinals lineups compared to the Pirates. Huge difference.

Oh yeah, the Cards had 6 guys hitting over .300...


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:55 am 
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val wrote:
Clevelandsux wrote:
The way they're playing now, yes i'd be hAPPY if they finished with a winning record. But still very dissapointed on how badly they've played down the stretch. Content? no.

But you're right. I was looking at the batting averages of the Cardinals lineups compared to the Pirates. Huge difference.

Oh yeah, the Cards had 6 guys hitting over .300...


STL payroll- $110,300,862
PIT payroll- $63,431,999


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:16 pm 
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at year's end...if we're not in the playoffs...but finish over .500, it's progress. Still disappointing considering where we were just 3-4 weeks ago. Just f'n win tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:40 pm 
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I posted that thread, and the majority of respondents took me to task. I felt pretty strongly that we were playing way over our heads from mid May to late July, and was trying to temper expectations so as not to be too disappointed in the (likely) event of regression.

So I will be happy if we can scratch out 84 or 85 wins -- though if we can win at least a game from StL, and if Cutch and Toro can re-find their power, all is not yet lost in the WC chase, given the remaining scheule -- though sub .500 teams (SD, Milw) have been eating our lunch of late.

If we make the WC, it'll be a pleasant treat. If not, this year will still have been a success if we can cross .500. We saw progress from much of the rotation (a step forward by JMac and Karstens) and the pen. We saw definitite improvement from certain position players (Pedro, Walker, Cutch). I think Snider is a keeper and Marte appears to have the makings of a good major leaguer. And we saw good progress by the power-armed keys to the future on the farm.

Still need to fill the SS black hole, still need to unlock Tabata to make him hustle (his coverage in left last night was weak) and revert to the .300 hitter we thought we had, and I'm not convinced Gabby is GI Jones' best platoon partner, but I remain confident the trajectory is the correct one, and those calling for NH's head are out of bounds IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:55 pm 
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I've said all along .500 would be a great year. I don't care where we were in the standings a few weeks ago.

We won 57 in 2010, 72 in 2011. If we win 82 this year, that is dramatic improvement in a relatively short timeframe.

The team is getting better. There are a lot less holes to fill, and there is talent in the upper minors. Cole and Taillon are performing well in AA, and they are the kind of players who can turn a .500 team into a playoff team.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:02 pm 
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I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:07 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


Come off it JC, what a sanctimonious bunch of crap.

I want all my grants to get funded this cycle, but that doesn't mean I "expect" it to happen. I would be an idiot to expect such unlikely things as a bar for being satisfied or content. We've heard this before last year when you professed that you expected a 57 win team to make the playoffs in 2011. I know yoou are not a fool, but why make such ridiculous comments. The world isn't black and white, there are levels of success and levels of failure. Your comment is Ricky Bobby "if I ain't first I'm last" nonsense.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


Come off it JC, what a sanctimonious bunch of crap.

I want all my grants to get funded this cycle, but that doesn't mean I "expect" it to happen. I would be an idiot to expect such unlikely things as a bar for being satisfied or content. We've heard this before last year when you professed that you expected a 57 win team to make the playoffs in 2011. I know yoou are not a fool, but why make such ridiculous comments. The world isn't black and white, there are levels of success and levels of failure. Your comment is Ricky Bobby "if I ain't first I'm last" nonsense.


Qualifying for the playoffs is not finishing first. I'm not advocating a "Ricky Bobby" approach. I'm merely reinforcing my view that success is measured by playoff appearances and legitimate chances at a championship, and not by .500 seasons.

I also never used the word "expect," which you put in quotes for some reason. As a fan, I'm not going to lower my standards just because my favorite team has sucked for a long while. Putting the Pirates on a sliding scale for success rewards the team for its failures and lowers fan standards. That's not the kind of fan I am. It's not sanctimonious; it's consistent and -- so long as championships are the actual goal of a franchise -- it's the same standard to which the Pirates hold themselves.

But hey, if you want to call the standards held by the PBC, its owners, managers and players "nonsense," don't let me stop you...


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:51 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


Come off it JC, what a sanctimonious bunch of crap.

I want all my grants to get funded this cycle, but that doesn't mean I "expect" it to happen. I would be an idiot to expect such unlikely things as a bar for being satisfied or content. We've heard this before last year when you professed that you expected a 57 win team to make the playoffs in 2011. I know yoou are not a fool, but why make such ridiculous comments. The world isn't black and white, there are levels of success and levels of failure. Your comment is Ricky Bobby "if I ain't first I'm last" nonsense.


Qualifying for the playoffs is not finishing first. I'm not advocating a "Ricky Bobby" approach. I'm merely reinforcing my view that success is measured by playoff appearances and legitimate chances at a championship, and not by .500 seasons.

I also never used the word "expect," which you put in quotes for some reason. As a fan, I'm not going to lower my standards just because my favorite team has sucked for a long while. Putting the Pirates on a sliding scale for success rewards the team for its failures and lowers fan standards. That's not the kind of fan I am. It's not sanctimonious; it's consistent and -- so long as championships are the actual goal of a franchise -- it's the same standard to which the Pirates hold themselves.

But hey, if you want to call the standards held by the PBC, its owners, managers and players "nonsense," don't let me stop you...


I'm fairly certain that the PBC's standards didn't mean playoffs in 2011. If so then everyone in charge should have resigned. Its not about lowering expectations, its about having realistic expectations. Of course they (or anyone) will say that the playoffs are the goal, but that doesn't mean they expect to achieve that every year. If they were approaching 2011 in that manner then they were dillusional. A winning season for a franchise buried under 19 years of failure is a success. Its not unqualified, but its a success nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:59 pm 
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What about 2012?


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
What about 2012?

What about it?

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~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
What about 2012?

What about it?


Barrys' prior post talked about 2011. I then asked about 2012. Was it so unclear that you required clarification?


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Barrys Dopers wrote:
I'm fairly certain that the PBC's standards didn't mean playoffs in 2011. If so then everyone in charge should have resigned. Its not about lowering expectations, its about having realistic expectations. Of course they (or anyone) will say that the playoffs are the goal, but that doesn't mean they expect to achieve that every year. If they were approaching 2011 in that manner then they were dillusional. A winning season for a franchise buried under 19 years of failure is a success. Its not unqualified, but its a success nonetheless.


Expectations do not lower the standard. The standard is playoffs = success and a chance to win a championship. Period.

The PBC's owners, managers and players have made clear that the standard is the playoffs and the goal is a World Series title. I'll be disappointed each year the Pirates fail to qualify for the playoffs, because that means they have fallen below the standard and lost an opportunity to achieve the goal. Moreover, the PBC's owners, managers and players have consistently (and rightfully) dismissed the "winning season" talk as irrelevant.

I guess I'm more supportive of the PBC's overall view, which you appear to perceive as "nonsense."


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:29 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Willton wrote:
J_C_Steel wrote:
What about 2012?

What about it?


Barrys' prior post talked about 2011. I then asked about 2012. Was it so unclear that you required clarification?

Your question was very general. I was hoping you would be more specific regarding your question about 2012.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:35 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
I'm not "content" with a winning record. You don't get a trophy for that. This ain't pee-wee soccer, and I'm not impressed with everyone getting orange wedges at halftime.

The goal is to qualify for the playoffs and make a run at a World Series championship. Period.

Sure, a better-than-.500 record constitutes progress, but it's still disappointing as a fan, particularly given the team's position entering August.


Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Finishing >.500 will be undeniably great.

It's just... I for one still believe this team is better than they have been playing the last 18.

The Bucs will finish with >81 wins, but it's going to be a polarizing offseason as the fans, both long loyal, bandwagon and back-and-forth, debate 'what went wrong?', etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:00 pm 
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While the ultimate goal is a World Series victory, what I'm really looking for is longer term.

I want the team to contend for the playoffs every year, actually make the playoffs some years, and occasionally win the World Series. Exactly like St. Louis does.

Given the recent history, a season that breaks .500 but does not result in a playoff berth would still be a success, especially since we could reasonably expect to be even better next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Content with a winning record..
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:42 pm 
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J_C_Steel wrote:
Barrys Dopers wrote:
I'm fairly certain that the PBC's standards didn't mean playoffs in 2011. If so then everyone in charge should have resigned. Its not about lowering expectations, its about having realistic expectations. Of course they (or anyone) will say that the playoffs are the goal, but that doesn't mean they expect to achieve that every year. If they were approaching 2011 in that manner then they were dillusional. A winning season for a franchise buried under 19 years of failure is a success. Its not unqualified, but its a success nonetheless.


Expectations do not lower the standard. The standard is playoffs = success and a chance to win a championship. Period.

The PBC's owners, managers and players have made clear that the standard is the playoffs and the goal is a World Series title. I'll be disappointed each year the Pirates fail to qualify for the playoffs, because that means they have fallen below the standard and lost an opportunity to achieve the goal. Moreover, the PBC's owners, managers and players have consistently (and rightfully) dismissed the "winning season" talk as irrelevant.

I guess I'm more supportive of the PBC's overall view, which you appear to perceive as "nonsense."


I fail to see how you can be disappointed in a season based solely on a failed objective that is not truly possible. 57 wins to playoffs just doesn't happen. This year's version is just a lesser variation of the theme.

I do not believe that the PBS has such unrealistic expectations. If they indeed do, then they have a poor ability to evaluate their own talent and situation. If they do, then they should have resigned do to a complete failure to reach the postseason in 2008-2011. They can say those platitudesabout the playoffs in the media all they want, but they arn't idiots. I'm fairly certain they knew the 2010 Pirates were not playoff contenders.

My definition of success for the 2012 Pirates (in March) included no expectation of the postseason. I don't think anyone here predicted or expected as such. I expected the Bucs to win 75ish games with sustainable improvement from building block players to set the stage for 2013. For the most part they have done just that. I'm fairly certain that you were alone in setting your goal as playoffs and anything less is a disappointment. Of course things change and I can see why people may be disappointed now after our position a month ago, but that has nothing to do with the hardline preseason goal of playoffs or bust.

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