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 Post subject: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:25 am 
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From Alvarez yesterday:

"We fought for a fair negotiation, and I believe we got that," he said. "I am completely satisfied with what was going on throughout the whole process. I am a big believer in faith, and I held onto my faith. I knew everything would work out for the best."

Help me here. What exactly did the Pirates do to deprive Alvarez of a "fair negotiation?" If it is true that the Bucs obtained an extension from MLB to negotiate beyond midnight (and it appears that they did), what exactly forced Alvarez to say "yes" to the deal at 12:15 a.m. when he would have said no at 11:59 p.m.? If he didn't like the deal at 12:15 a.m., couldn't he have simply said [insert Sara Palin voice] "thanks but no thanks" and gone back to Vanderbilt.

I can be pretty dense at times but I'm having a hard time swallowing the "I was deprived of the opportunity for fair negotiations" line from Scott Alvarez (a.k.a. Pedro Boras).

Along those same lines, the typical "all I wanted to do was play baseball" line is a pile of crap.

In my line of work, we hear from opposing counsel all the time that "it is not about the money." That usually precedes an outrageous demand because, of course, it is ALL about the money.

Yeah, Pedro, sure. All you wanted to do is play baseball. Riiiiiight.

I sure hope that he is good and good fast. Right now, I don't see a long tenure as a Pirate. He's looking for big paydays and has the right agent to help him. I may be way off base here but this kid is destined to play the majority of his career as a Met, Yankee, Angel, Red Sox or Cub.

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:36 am 
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They "deprived" him by not caving into Borass's demands on August 15th. However, Borass had an ace up his sleeve, and he played it to get his client a better (depending on which side you talk to) deal.

Pedro had to know what was going on, he's not dumb by all accounts. He's just saying what he's been told to say. Can you really expect him to come out and say, "We are really happy that Scott's 'rope a dope' tactic was successful. I'm looking forward to the day when I can become an UFA and make the real money that I deserve. I can't say enough good thing about Count Boras, he could bleed a mosquito dry if he had to."?


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:42 am 
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Cant wait to see what his reaction is when he goes in a slump where he goes 0-20, and sees how he can handle the fans' reactions...it had better be worth the extra $$$

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:42 am 
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This is Scott Boras talking. The kid has to say something. Believe me, I would like to blame PA, but it's a waste of time. Boras is the bad guy here. He manipulates everything and everybody. I know his job is about getting the money, but I still hate JD Drew to the day because of his signing.

So, am I contradicting myself? Drew was never a Pittsburgh Pirate. Pedro is. Until he isn't, I will root for him to be great. When he is a Met, he can go break his leg.

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:46 am 
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If Boras is supposed to help his client, he isn't doing him any favors by dumping at least half of the blame on PA to the Pittsburgh media. Kinda hard to repair a relationship with the Pirates fans when you start off going even further south.

Did you read the stupid, fabricated story that Boras had filed this claim upon? The MLB held the Royals on the phone so that they would have to sign their pick after the Pirates. What a crock! Dude sounds like a 3rd grade child with a made up story to lay blame on someone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:59 am 
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If we are already looking to lose Alvarez to the Mets, Yankees, etc., then that is very sad. But, if this kid is as good as they are saying, we better darn well trade him before his walk year and get a boat load of prospects. This is what Pirate fans have been reduced to.....projecting what we will get for a prospect who hasn't even played a game yet! Someone save us!!! Mark Cuban??!! Please......


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:38 pm 
He shouldn't have agreed to the contract in the first place if he wasn't happy. I hate backdoor crap like this. Negotiate on the up-and-up, ya know?


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:03 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
They "deprived" him by not caving into Borass's demands on August 15th. However, Borass had an ace up his sleeve, and he played it to get his client a better (depending on which side you talk to) deal.

Pedro had to know what was going on, he's not dumb by all accounts. He's just saying what he's been told to say. Can you really expect him to come out and say, "We are really happy that Scott's 'rope a dope' tactic was successful. I'm looking forward to the day when I can become an UFA and make the real money that I deserve. I can't say enough good thing about Count Boras, he could bleed a mosquito dry if he had to."?


Argentum -
I know that Alvarez was simply repeating the lines that Boras fed him. It is wishful thinking but I would have found a "let's forget about how we got here and let's get me out on the baseball field" and "I feel fortunate and lucky to now be making a lot of money to play a game that I love and I look forward to the opportunities created to help myself, my family and my community as a result of this incredible opportunity" to be rather refreshing.

I know that my post was dour but, let's face reality. If Alvarez is as good as projected and rises like a meteor through the system, the Pirates cannot (I repeat CANNOT) compete with the pocketbooks of other teams. I know that I've written it before but when the Yankees get $200M + for TV revenue and the Pirates get about $10M . . . that allows the Yankees to spend $190M more on player salaries before reaching the same level as the Bucs. That is 19 players at $10M per player - almost a full roster.

While I agree that the Pirates should go after the best player possible in the draft, I think that their best chance for success if finding "diamonds in the rough" in the later rounds in the draft. Those players are signed for much less, signed to minor league contracts, can have major league minimums thrust upon them and the Bucs are in a much better position to offer those players longer term contracts through their arbitration eligible years to postpone free agency. Given the amount of money that Alvarez is currently making and given his agent, there will be little motivation for him to sign a long term deal through arbitration years and into a couple years of his free agency. If he is as good as advertised, the Yankees or Red Sox will line up to pay him $18M/year. There is no way the Bucs can absorb that in this marketplace.

Don't get me wrong. I think that Alvarez may prove to be an excellent player. I just don't see too many years as a Pirate. I hope that he is an All-Star and proves me wrong by wanting to stay in the 'Burgh for a long time for good money. I'm not holding my breath.

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:57 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I think that Alvarez may prove to be an excellent player. I just don't see too many years as a Pirate. I hope that he is an All-Star and proves me wrong by wanting to stay in the 'Burgh for a long time for good money. I'm not holding my breath.


Remember, though, it's not about money. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:14 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
I know that Alvarez was simply repeating the lines that Boras fed him. It is wishful thinking but I would have found a "let's forget about how we got here and let's get me out on the baseball field" and "I feel fortunate and lucky to now be making a lot of money to play a game that I love and I look forward to the opportunities created to help myself, my family and my community as a result of this incredible opportunity" to be rather refreshing.


No. 9, I'm not an Alvarez apologist, but he did have these quotes attributed to him in today's Trib:

Quote:
I'm just here to play baseball, I want to be the best player I can be, and I'll work my hardest for the fans in Pittsburgh.


Quote:
I want the fans to judge me as the professional player that I am now, judge me on the field. I will work hardest to be a leader on and off the field and in the community.


As for not being able to afford to keep him past his 6 years of MLB service, I'm with you in that it sucks. Assuming he makes the starting roster in 2010, and assuming he gets traded before his 6 years are up, we'll benefit from his services for about 4.5 - 5 years. Or until about 2015. There really is no such thing as a cornerstone player on a bottom feeding team.

I do however stop short of using this as an excuse for failure. A competent front office will find ways to survive. It's already been done. Plus, it looks like the Yankees are going to suck for a few years, so unlimited green does have limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:20 pm 
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So the fans in Tampa can look forward to kissing Evan Longoria goodbye in the near future?


The economics of baseball have already started to change. The Yankees are showing fiscal discipline. The Angels are talking about not being able to keep Texiera. Teams are being smarter with their money.

By the time Alvarez is a FA, it could make sense for him to resign with Pittsburgh.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:30 pm 
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I doubt it, there is always someone who will pay for premium players. If not, the Players Union will cry foul.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:08 pm 
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The fact that we are talking about a player in the system that could be good enough to bolt for a ton of money should be a positive. Let's enjoy him for several seasons before he ships off to somewhere else Why is that even a topic now? Baseball is what it is. Two different levels of teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
He shouldn't have agreed to the contract in the first place if he wasn't happy. I hate backdoor crap like this. Negotiate on the up-and-up, ya know?

It's hard to do so and get fair market value when the system is swayed heavily against you.

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
He shouldn't have agreed to the contract in the first place if he wasn't happy. I hate backdoor crap like this. Negotiate on the up-and-up, ya know?

It's hard to do so and get fair market value when the system is swayed heavily against you.


Are you talking about the Pirates ability to get free agents when competing against the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels or Pedro Alvarez inability to get "fair market value" contract?

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Obsessive proponent of situational bunting and 2 strike hitting approaches, reflexively pro-catchers calling good games and tasteless proponent of the value of a RBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:07 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
He shouldn't have agreed to the contract in the first place if he wasn't happy. I hate backdoor crap like this. Negotiate on the up-and-up, ya know?

It's hard to do so and get fair market value when the system is swayed heavily against you.


So you say you agree to a contract with no intention of honoring that contract? No one made him agree on deadline day. If he wasn't happy with it, he didn't have to sign.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:56 pm 
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No. 9 wrote:
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
He shouldn't have agreed to the contract in the first place if he wasn't happy. I hate backdoor crap like this. Negotiate on the up-and-up, ya know?

It's hard to do so and get fair market value when the system is swayed heavily against you.


Are you talking about the Pirates ability to get free agents when competing against the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels or Pedro Alvarez inability to get "fair market value" contract?

I'm talking about Pedro's inability to get fair market value. When there's no competition for his services, it's hard to see how he was going to get a fair deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
He shouldn't have agreed to the contract in the first place if he wasn't happy. I hate backdoor crap like this. Negotiate on the up-and-up, ya know?

It's hard to do so and get fair market value when the system is swayed heavily against you.


So you say you agree to a contract with no intention of honoring that contract? No one made him agree on deadline day. If he wasn't happy with it, he didn't have to sign.

But you seem to forget that there was no competition for his services. By drafting him, the Pirates acquired exclusive bargaining rights with Alvarez, and that allotted the Pirates the lion's share of the bargaining power. As a result, if Alvarez did not like the terms of the contract, he was stuck between a rock in a hard place: either accept the deal that the Pirates give him or accept unemployment. He couldn't shop himself to any other team who might be willing to pay a more competitive price for his services.

I know it may seem difficult to see this, considering Alvarez got a $6M contract. But I promise you that if Alvarez were on the open market, he'd get an offer from another team worth more than his original deal. When a player is stuck in an anticompetitive regime like the draft, I fully understand that player's desire to subvert the process in order to receive fair market value.

To quote Joe Sheehan,
Quote:
Look, I’m no radical, but I’ve never understood why we allow in sports what we would never allow in other professions. Engineering firms don’t draft the top engineers and pay them below-market rates, and while the early careers of attorneys can be daunting, they get to choose a firm to give 100 hours a week to for a few years. In those industries, in fact, the top talent can have long, illustrious, profitable careers, so that even if we did hold a First-Year Lawyer Draft, we wouldn’t necessarily be cutting a chunk out the earning potential of the young barristers. We also wouldn’t tell them they had to work for a lousy firm, or in a city they might hate, far from their families. As a nation, we wouldn’t stand for that kind of thing, but we do in sports. In sports, we’re handing over the prime of players’ careers without ever giving them a chance to find out what they were worth. For many players, the step from amateur to professional is, in fact, the only time in their lives that they will have any leverage at all in their salary, if not their employer or place of work or management team. It is embarrassing to take so much away from them, then complain that they’re not being reasonable when it comes to the one thing that they can negotiate. If coming out of college I’d been told that I had no choice but to go copyedit for the Des Moines Register, you can be damn sure that I would have been a jerk about salary.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... cleid=7937

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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:46 am 
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Wilton, wouldn't that put teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Cubs in a position to get the best talent every year? There would be mass closings of teams. Eventually, we'd have 4 teams in each league. The draft is the only method in modern baseball that smaller market teams cans succeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Typical BS comments
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:57 am 
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The draft exists in every professional sport. You could easily argue all of these guys should get the rookie minimums with no signing bonuses until they prove themselves professionally. The leagues are privately run entities and the drafts are determined by CBAs.

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