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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:32 am 
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BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
So JimY can attack me but I can't defend myself?

Good call mods.


Here's a little secret...starting your post with "Hey asshole..." is a good way to get it deleted. Call it a rule of thumb, if you will. And I would hardly call what was posted "defending yourself".



If someone is going to attack me.....I'd rather they do it direct instead of playing a passive aggressive game.

Then again there are certain posters who I don't expect anything better from.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:09 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
If someone is going to attack me.....I'd rather they do it direct instead of playing a passive aggressive game.

Then again there are certain posters who I don't expect anything better from.

We'd rather you actually engage in real discussion, but you seem incapable of that, as evinced by your flagrant insults and false claims.

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~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:06 am 
Jeremy wrote:
So JimY can attack me but I can't defend myself?

Good call mods.


There is a double standard with personal attacks on this board. I got "warned" for making personal attacks in the past, so I've made every effort to stop. Yet, others get personal toward me. Have they been warned? I don't know. But I know there is no consequences to their attacks because they are still allowed to post here and continue to get personal.

I've asked the moderators but never gotten a straight response ... what is the rule with personal attacks?

If they are forbidden, they should be forbidden across the board. If they are allowed, everyone should be allowed to make them, not just the favorite posters of the board.

I'm fine with either, so long as it's consistent. But when you warn someone about personal attacks and threaten to ban him, how is he to defend himself if others aren't given the same guidelines?


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:08 am 
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Elmer wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
So JimY can attack me but I can't defend myself?

Good call mods.


There is a double standard with personal attacks on this board. I got "warned" for making personal attacks in the past, so I've stopped. Yet, when others get personal toward me. Have been warned? I don't know. But I know there is no consequences to their attacks because they are still allowed to post here.

I've asked the moderators but never gotten a straight response ... what is the rule with personal attacks?

If they are forbidden, they should be forbidden across the board. If they are allowed, everyone should be allowed to make them, not just the favorite posters of the board.

I'm fine with either, so long as it's consistent. But when you warn someone about personal attacks and threaten to ban him, how is he to defend himself if others aren't given the same guidelines?


Elmer... Throughout this whole process, you are looking for a fair trial, fair negotiations... am I correct? :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:15 am 
BTW, just now I got your joke. Doh!


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:48 am 
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Elmer wrote:
Yes. It should be fair and equal. The rules for personal attacks should be clearly defined and enforced consistently, whether Willton is making the attacks or the "unpopular" crew who voices alternate opinions -- such as me, Jeremy, etc.

I'm not condoning starting posts "Hey asshole" or anything like that, but just as posts like that shouldn't be tolerated, nor should be personal insults simply because they're coming from the "in" crowd.

If they rules aren't going to be clearly defined and equally enforced, then throw out "rules" completely and let people defend themselves without fear of being banned.


Seriously, Elmer, are you STILL upset about Econo's remark about you not being married? First, I found no evidence that he was trying to insult you, nor do I think he would even have occasion to know you were divorced (and that it was a sensitive subject for you...I know many people who are proud to be divorced and would have not been insulted at all by it). And second, he did not in any way use offensive language.

I have no reason to justify myself to you, but since you want to make a public deal out of it, there you have it. Find one instance where any of the "in crowd" (btw, would you mind letting me know who is in the "in crowd" so that I can grant them these special favors you allege are ongoing? My guess is that the "in crowd" is anyone who disagrees with you, and the "out crowd" is anyone who is sympathetic towards you...is that right?) has started off a post as described above, or used any malicious language. My guess is that they have either been warned or the post was deleted.

Quite frankly, if you have such a problem with the way Bucco Boy, Bertie, and myself work, you are free to find other message boards to frequent. I don't believe we are forcing you to come here. And if you have a problem with a certain individual (which you very obviously do), for the love of God, just IGNORE THEM and move on already. If I wanted to deal with this sort of shit, I would have been a preschool teacher. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:01 pm 
No, I'm not talking about that in particular. I'm talking about numerous things.

- Still, even now, no none has clearly defined the rules for personal insults.

- Why did I get "warned" for insults when others throw them around freely? Can I insult others who insult me or will I be banned? WHAT ARE THE RULES?

- When I PMd you, asking just this question before, why did I receive no response?

- Why do some people get called out on vulgarity and others don't? Think of how many people tell BH to "fuck off" or call him an "a#hle" If he said anything like that, he'd be banned immediately. Those aren't personal attacks?

- You deleted Jeremy's post that said "hey asshole" as you should. Why do you not delete posts directed toward others that say "fuck off"? Open up many BH posts and you'll find vulgarity. So vulgarity is not allowed unless it is directed toward BH? WHAT ARE THE RULES?

- Since you brought it up, regarding Willton and my wife, how is it OK to bring up the TOPIC of other posters' wives on a baseball board, period? No one has answered that for me either. If I, in turn, said something about his girlfriend, I can only imagine the stern "PMs" I'd get. So, please answer, is the topic of wifes/girlfriends fair game or not? For everyone or only Willton?

- As for your question about why I don't leave, because I enjoy the board and the baseball discussion with most people. Because I enjoy the board, that's why I'm fighting for fairness in how it's "rules" are enforced.


Last edited by Elmer on Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Elmer, look. I've been knocking around internet message boards for quite some time now. I've been banned from a few (I know you're all shocked) and I've done some mod work for a few.


I've learned two things in all that time:

1. Mods have a hard job.

2. Mods aren't emotionless robots.


There are certain things which should be automatic bans. Threats of violence against another poster. Bringing someone's family in to the discussion. Racial slurs. Those are things which have no place on a message board. Save that stuff for when you're a six pack in at the bar. I've been threatened personally by someone on a board and I got banned for responding in kind. Was it fair? Hell no, but the guy who attacked me was a friend of the lead moderator. That meant he got away with everything and I got away with nothing.


Bottom line is that BBF is right. If I hated the way they ran this board, I'd leave. I've done it before and I will do it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:17 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer, look. I've been knocking around internet message boards for quite some time now. I've been banned from a few (I know you're all shocked) and I've done some mod work for a few.


I've learned two things in all that time:

1. Mods have a hard job.

2. Mods aren't emotionless robots.


There are certain things which should be automatic bans. Threats of violence against another poster. Bringing someone's family in to the discussion. Racial slurs. Those are things which have no place on a message board. Save that stuff for when you're a six pack in at the bar. I've been threatened personally by someone on a board and I got banned for responding in kind. Was it fair? Hell no, but the guy who attacked me was a friend of the lead moderator. That meant he got away with everything and I got away with nothing.


Bottom line is that BBF is right. If I hated the way they ran this board, I'd leave. I've done it before and I will do it again.


I don't hate the way the board is run. I like it very much except for the lack of clearly defined rules. I just want to know where I stand and if I'm free to defend myself from attacks without fear of being banned myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:20 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer, look. I've been knocking around internet message boards for quite some time now. I've been banned from a few (I know you're all shocked) and I've done some mod work for a few.


I've learned two things in all that time:

1. Mods have a hard job.

2. Mods aren't emotionless robots.


There are certain things which should be automatic bans. Threats of violence against another poster. Bringing someone's family in to the discussion. Racial slurs. Those are things which have no place on a message board. Save that stuff for when you're a six pack in at the bar. I've been threatened personally by someone on a board and I got banned for responding in kind. Was it fair? Hell no, but the guy who attacked me was a friend of the lead moderator. That meant he got away with everything and I got away with nothing.


Bottom line is that BBF is right. If I hated the way they ran this board, I'd leave. I've done it before and I will do it again.


I don't hate the way the board is run. I like it very much except for the lack of clearly defined rules. I just want to know where I stand and if I'm free to defend myself from attacks without fear of being banned myself.




LOL......I've been banned before and I'll probably be banned again at some point. You can't be afraid to get banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:22 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer, look. I've been knocking around internet message boards for quite some time now. I've been banned from a few (I know you're all shocked) and I've done some mod work for a few.


I've learned two things in all that time:

1. Mods have a hard job.

2. Mods aren't emotionless robots.


There are certain things which should be automatic bans. Threats of violence against another poster. Bringing someone's family in to the discussion. Racial slurs. Those are things which have no place on a message board. Save that stuff for when you're a six pack in at the bar. I've been threatened personally by someone on a board and I got banned for responding in kind. Was it fair? Hell no, but the guy who attacked me was a friend of the lead moderator. That meant he got away with everything and I got away with nothing.


Bottom line is that BBF is right. If I hated the way they ran this board, I'd leave. I've done it before and I will do it again.


I don't hate the way the board is run. I like it very much except for the lack of clearly defined rules. I just want to know where I stand and if I'm free to defend myself from attacks without fear of being banned myself.




LOL......I've been banned before and I'll probably be banned again at some point. You can't be afraid to get banned.


I'm not afraid so much as I just don't want to get banned. I enjoy coming here. It's a nice way to talk baseball (usually) amid the work day.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:26 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
Bringing someone's family in to the discussion.

Unfortunately, that's happened without consequence.


Jeremy wrote:
. I've been threatened personally by someone on a board and I got banned for responding in kind. Was it fair? Hell no, but the guy who attacked me was a friend of the lead moderator. That meant he got away with everything and I got away with nothing.


I've seen that and I hate it. The principal of "special rules" for certain people eats at me. I guess I have to learn to accept that here.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:29 pm 
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I'd like to think that we police ourselves and try and keep the board clean. I know I have been guilty at times of losing my temper(although I've never swore at anyone), but its important for me to apologize whether publicly or privately to each individual I have said malicious things to. I have even apologized to BH for my angry outbursts to him.

That said, I find this board to be mostly professional, there are heated debates but in the end, we are all still part of the Pirate family. I would hope that we could act as such. I noticed Elmer that you refered to Sisyphus(not singling him out, just an example) as "abrasive," and its correct, he is. But he is as passionate about what he believes as the rest of us and most importantly, he backs up his opinions with logical arguments, with perceived solutions. I can respect that. Although I don't agree with him politically, I do agree with him for the most part when it comes to the Pirates, but what I know now is his posting style, and I know now not to take offense to it.

There are other guys on here that are well versed and very opinionated, but hey, thats what your on a forum site for, to relay your opinion. When I first came on the board, Wilton(a.k.a. Econo) hammered me on a discussion about Jack Wilson, in the end, Wilton was right. These guys are nowhere near as frustrating as guys like BH who hammer the same opinion with little facts and no solutions. I have offered many times to discuss BH's possible soltutions to his perceived problems but to no avail.

What I have noticed is the level of intelligence on the board is quite high, with Doctors, Lawyers, Lawyers to be, etc., poorly formulated comments stick out like a sore thumb. Name calling and useless bantering looks even further out of place. So what my point of all this is, is that that "style" of posting doesn't belong in this forum. This is my only forum that I write in, because this is the only one that I have found to mostly disciplined, about the topics and the team, and not about attacking people personally. We almost lost a valuable member of our community in BradF, to a tastless, unwarrented and completely inappropriate post.

As far as the example of BH goes, its hard not to condemn the nasty comments toward him because he is an agitator, and nothing more. I'd like nothing more than for him to be able to debate his issues in a mature and thoughtful manner. I have told him that I am sure that he is an educated person and that I am shocked that he resorts to the agitation style of posting that is his motif. After many attempts to discuss things intelligently, I just found it easier to ignore him, to which I had promised never to do.

So I agree with Elmer that discipline should be equal across the board, but I have found nothing in my dealings that would lead me to believe that there is a discrimination of posters. Basically, if you say something stupid, your going to get dinged by someone. I know from personal experience.

I hold no ill feelings toward anyone on this board, none whatsoever.

PF13


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Elmer, if you really want to talk about my girlfriend, help yourself. My ego is not so easily bruised.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:01 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer, if you really want to talk about my girlfriend, help yourself. My ego is not so easily bruised.


It's not about bruised ego, it's about respect and class. No one STILL has given me reason on why it's OK to bring up the topic of other posters' wives, girlfriends or family members in baseball discussion. Please, tell me how that is appropriate.

I'm waiting ... ... justify bringing up the topic of posters' wives/girlfriends/family in baseball discussion.


Last edited by Elmer on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:02 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Elmer, if you really want to talk about my girlfriend, help yourself. My ego is not so easily bruised.


It's not about bruised ego, it's about respect and class. No one STILL has given me reason on why it's OK to bring up the topic of other posters' wives, girlfriends or family members in baseball discussion. Please, tell me how that is appropriate?



Class and Willton......you know what you're saying right?


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:06 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Elmer, if you really want to talk about my girlfriend, help yourself. My ego is not so easily bruised.


It's not about bruised ego, it's about respect and class. No one STILL has given me reason on why it's OK to bring up the topic of other posters' wives, girlfriends or family members in baseball discussion. Please, tell me how that is appropriate?



Class and Willton......you know what you're saying right?


Good point. Anyone who would A - Bring family into a baseball discussion and B - Offer his girlfriend up as a similar target is pretty classless.

I can't imagine many posters saying, "go ahead, rip on my wife." Wow.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I'm waiting ... ... justify bringing up the topic of posters' wives/girlfriends/family in baseball discussion.


My wife was once my girlfriend, and together we made a beautiful family that enjoys Pirates baseball. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:31 pm 
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Elmer, let's have a look at what was actually said:
Willton wrote:
BBF wrote:
I'm done arguing with you. If you want to get your panties in a bunch because Munoz is pitching in the 5th inning down by 8 runs instead of Salas, fine. Its not as if we are passing up some hot prospect to take over some key role. This makes the infmous rearranging of deck chairs on the Titanic look quite important by comparison. But apparently NH nailed your wife, so everything he does is wrong.

Given the amount of nitpicking this guy does to his favorite team, can you imagine Elmer actually having a wife? I'm not sure there's a woman out there that can be as perfect as Elmer would like.

BBF's comment is clearly recognizing your apparent vendetta against Huntington and offers a facetious reason for your animosity toward him. My remark is clearly a remark on how upset you get at the littlest problem and how that may impair you in other areas. These are not comments about your wife/ex-wife/family member/what-have-you; these are comments solely about you based on what we've observed. If anything, the invoking of your wife/ex-wife is designed to illustrate a point, not to slam her.

Now, if you find that offensive, then I'm sorry. I meant no animosity towards your family members and had no idea that you were that sensitive to such issues. (As you may have guessed, I am not so sensitive.) But I don't think that you could possibly find it so offensive that you feel the need to bring this up again and again.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:34 pm 
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For the record, I don't care if anyone talks about my girlfriend or my wife. As long as you aren't talking about my girlfriend TO my wife! :lol:


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