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 Post subject: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:36 pm 
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Going back through the archives, I noticed this old post from May of this year:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=130
BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
BBF wrote:
Sorry dude, Jurrjens is much much more valuable than Jack Wilson. Starting pitching, GOOD starting pitching, is the holy grail of baseball. The difference between Jurrjens and Dumatrait is much bigger than the difference between Izturis or Eckstein and Jack.


You're basing your judgement off of two months of baseball. Jurrjens has had two months of baseball.

There have been a lot of players who were world beaters for two months. I'm not ready to call this kid a good starting pitcher yet.



Well then tell me at what point you would be ready to call him a good starting pitcher. I would be more than happy to revisit this issue at that point. FYI, I'm not basing it on two months of baseball. You seem to think minor league track record and/or scouting reports mean nothing.

Jeremy wrote:
Kris Benson was a great minor leaguer with good scouting reports.

Let's revisit this in August when the kid goes through the league the second time. It's so freaking easy to look great the first time you see a club. It gets a hell of a lot harder when major league hitters see you for the second and third time.

So, is it safe to conclude that the Pirates would have been better off trading Jack Wilson for Jair Jurrjens?

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:25 pm 
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You really need a life loser.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
You really need a life loser.

Love you too, Jeremy. :lol:

Hey, you are the one that wanted to revisit the issue. See your quote above.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:18 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
You really need a life loser.


No crap he does.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:10 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
You really need a life loser.


Seriously, Willton. Get a life. Stop coming around here and making ridiculous and baseless assertions, then having no support for them when someone calls you on them, and finally resorting to personal attacks. You ARE a loser.

Oh, wait...never mind. My bad.

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:20 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
You really need a life loser.


Seriously, Willton. Get a life. Stop coming around here and making ridiculous and baseless assertions, then having no support for them when someone calls you on them, and finally resorting to personal attacks. You ARE a loser.

Oh, wait...never mind. My bad.

:roll:

Thank you for stating what I was going to say.

I've been away from the board for a few weeks now and in doing some catching up, I've noticed a lot of personal attacks from Jeremy.

It's pathetic that you need to resort to personal attacks on a freaking message board because you cannot have an intelligent discussion with people who have a different view than yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:44 pm 
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cappscrew138 wrote:
BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
You really need a life loser.


Seriously, Willton. Get a life. Stop coming around here and making ridiculous and baseless assertions, then having no support for them when someone calls you on them, and finally resorting to personal attacks. You ARE a loser.

Oh, wait...never mind. My bad.

:roll:

Thank you for stating what I was going to say.

I've been away from the board for a few weeks now and in doing some catching up, I've noticed a lot of personal attacks from Jeremy.

It's pathetic that you need to resort to personal attacks on a freaking message board because you cannot have an intelligent discussion with people who have a different view than yourself.



Intelligent discussions with people who do nothing but quote the company line at me.......


I'll leave that one alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Apparently if you have a disagreement with Jeremy, you're "quoting the company line." What "company" would that be?

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:22 am 
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Jair Jurrjens is dutch though :P :P :P :P

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:37 am 
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Better off with Jurjens this year? Based on what we saw without Jack. No way.

He might be a good pitcher, but his pitchiness would not be enough to override the uglyness that was "no Jack" at SS.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:12 am 
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I must say, even though I am a huge fan of J. Wilson, it would be nice to have Jair Jurrjens services.

But we thought we already had quality from the SP spot with Snell and Gorzo. So at the time, the decision was a sound one. Hindsight is alwayts 20/20.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:17 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I must say, even though I am a huge fan of J. Wilson, it would be nice to have Jair Jurrjens services.

But we thought we already had quality from the SP spot with Snell and Gorzo. So at the time, the decision was a sound one. Hindsight is alwayts 20/20.



You can never have too many good starting pitchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:24 am 
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Jeremy wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
I must say, even though I am a huge fan of J. Wilson, it would be nice to have Jair Jurrjens services.

But we thought we already had quality from the SP spot with Snell and Gorzo. So at the time, the decision was a sound one. Hindsight is alwayts 20/20.



You can never have too many good starting pitchers.


Yes but you can't trade away your ONLY SS to get pitching depth. Had we been in the position we are now, with knowing that Cruz can play the position at least defensively, it might be another story. Bixler, who was Wilsons' backup at the time was an unproven and mysterious commodity. Just look at the beginning of this season, he showed that he wasn't ready to play SS at the MLB level quite yet. He has even indicated that he may only be a utility player at best.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:40 am 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
I must say, even though I am a huge fan of J. Wilson, it would be nice to have Jair Jurrjens services.

But we thought we already had quality from the SP spot with Snell and Gorzo. So at the time, the decision was a sound one. Hindsight is alwayts 20/20.



You can never have too many good starting pitchers.


Yes but you can't trade away your ONLY SS to get pitching depth. Had we been in the position we are now, with knowing that Cruz can play the position at least defensively, it might be another story. Bixler, who was Wilsons' backup at the time was an unproven and mysterious commodity. Just look at the beginning of this season, he showed that he wasn't ready to play SS at the MLB level quite yet. He has even indicated that he may only be a utility player at best.


If the Pirates had dealt Jack, there would probably have been some sort of SS acquistion made for this past season, knowing they weren't sure on Bixler yet and had no one else after him...

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:25 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Yes but you can't trade away your ONLY SS to get pitching depth. Had we been in the position we are now, with knowing that Cruz can play the position at least defensively, it might be another story. Bixler, who was Wilsons' backup at the time was an unproven and mysterious commodity. Just look at the beginning of this season, he showed that he wasn't ready to play SS at the MLB level quite yet. He has even indicated that he may only be a utility player at best.


If the Pirates had dealt Jack, there would probably have been some sort of SS acquistion made for this past season, knowing they weren't sure on Bixler yet and had no one else after him...

Actually, if the Pirates had dealt Jack, they likely would have kept Cesar Izturis. As infuriating as Tracy's love affair with Izturis was, Izturis would have been a decent replacement for Jack had he been traded.

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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:27 pm 
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Don't forget, I believe they also had an option on Cesar Izturis, as well. Had Jack been dealt, we would NOT have been dealing just with Rivas and Bixler.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:30 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Don't forget, I believe they also had an option on Cesar Izturis, as well. Had Jack been dealt, we would NOT have been dealing just with Rivas and Bixler.


I did forget about Izturis...


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:37 pm 
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I couldn't remember the time tables as to when Izturis was showed the door and the Jack trade...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:57 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
I couldn't remember the time tables as to when Izturis was showed the door and the Jack trade...


The Jack trade I think was at the deadline of '07, Littlefield was still in command.


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 Post subject: Re: Revisiting Old Issues: Jair Jurrjens and Jack Wilson
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Go back ever further and say they don't trade away Lillibridge. Where are we at then.


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