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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
I'm not sure you even know what hypocrisy means.


Again, with personal attacks amid a baseball discussion. How is that OK?

Talk to Jeremy. He attacked me.

By the way, you didn't answer the question: do you see a free agent out there that would fall within the Pirates' budget and would be able to help them win in 2009, 2010 and beyond?

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Last edited by Willton on Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
I'm not sure you even know what hypocrisy means.


Again, with personal attacks amid a baseball discussion. How is that OK?


Elmer, we all know that you hate Willton (what, he killed your puppy?), but I find it humorous that you point out his insults while ignoring those of the other party. Interesting, to say the least.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:02 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
I'm not sure you even know what hypocrisy means.


Again, with personal attacks amid a baseball discussion. How is that OK?


Elmer, we all know that you hate Willton (what, he killed your puppy?), but I find it humorous that you point out his insults while ignoring those of the other party. Interesting, to say the least.


You're right ... Jeremy, shouldn't be doing it either. There's a history with Willton, though. It's a regular thing. Just click back through the history of this board. When a poster disagrees with him, he very very frequently resorts to personal insults. BBF, do you think that is an OK thing to do on the board?


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:05 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
I'm not sure you even know what hypocrisy means.


Again, with personal attacks amid a baseball discussion. How is that OK?

Talk to Jeremy. He attacked me.

By the way, you didn't answer the question: do you see a free agent out there that would fall within the Pirates' budget and would be able to help them win in 2009, 2010 and beyond?


I don't get into naming specific potential FAs with you for a couple reasons.

A - no matter who I pick, you'll shoot down out of spite. You've shown that.
B - we aren't in GM-Agent talks so it's impossible for us to tell what various players' asking prices are

I do think it isn't reasonable to assume that, for a team that's losing 90+ games, that there's not a single free agent in the class who might be a fit before the offseason even begins.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:09 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Sure, it's possible that the Pirates contend in 2009. It is also possible that MLB cancels the 2009 season entirely. But is it likely?

It makes most sense to build expectations not on what is possible, but on what is probable.


I believe a professional sports team should do everything it can to win every game of every season.

If you see a free agent who could help you win in 2009 AND 2010 and beyond, and he fits into your budget, why would you not what to sign him?


Elmer,
I don't mean to be a Richard Cranium here but you are assuming that a talented FA is going to want to play here. Winning in MLB is a multilayer process. I would find it hard to believe a quality FA would come to Pittsburgh. The idea of becoming a FA is to gain the most money possible and also to play for a team that has a chance to win the WS. Its the only time a player can determine where he is going to play. Do you think someone would come to Pittsburgh, right now?

So in a sense, you are correct Elmer, we have to play hard to win, every game, because essentially we are playing for the team, the fans, and possible FA's. Winners always get the goods. We have to work on winning first.


Piratefan13, you are correct about a player wanting to play here. That's something that is often over looked when talking free agents. I do it myself. Not many baseball players actually want to play for the Pirates these days. That said, I don't think the front office should just throw their hands up and not try.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Elmer,
They tried last season, how many guys turned down offers to play for us? Some of which I am happy(J. Estrada)!


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:19 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer,
They tried last season, how many guys turned down offers to play for us? Some of which I am happy(J. Estrada)!


Erik Estrada would have been a better fit imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:21 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer,
They tried last season, how many guys turned down offers to play for us? Some of which I am happy(J. Estrada)!


Yeah, I also read a lot of accounts that say the team tried to sign some guys last year. I hope they try again this offseason. I hate when teams lay down and accept losing. If they are making honest attempts to get better, that's great. They should have money to spend given the uloading of Bay/Nady. I don't want them to spend it just to spend it, but, again, if the right guy is there, I hope they aren't afraid to open up the check book.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:23 pm 
Argentum wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer,
They tried last season, how many guys turned down offers to play for us? Some of which I am happy(J. Estrada)!


Erik Estrada would have been a better fit imo.


If the Pirates are able to sign Erik Estrada in any capacity, I am totally fine with that. Maybe bullpen catcher. The laughs that would result from him warming up pithcers in a CHIPS outfit would be worth whatever they would have to spend.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
By the way, you didn't answer the question: do you see a free agent out there that would fall within the Pirates' budget and would be able to help them win in 2009, 2010 and beyond?


I don't get into naming specific potential FAs with you for a couple reasons.

A - no matter who I pick, you'll shoot down out of spite. You've shown that.
B - we aren't in GM-Agent talks so it's impossible for us to tell what various players' asking prices are

A - So are you saying you're afraid of being shot down? Do you really have no faith in yourself to make a good pick?
B - We may not be privy to contract negotiations, but we can find out who the 2008 free agents will be and we also have the salary numbers for last year's free agents to use as a basis for this year.

If you were to pick a player that I thought was a bad pick, then yes, I'm going to shoot it down. Then, upon hearing my arguments as to why it is a bad pick, you should be able to rebut my arguments in return or concede that it was a bad pick, depending on how strongly you feel about your pick. That's called "discussion."

My guess as to the reason why you won't offer a pick is because you're afraid of opening yourself to criticism. So instead you make overly-generalized points that are seemingly unassailable but do not advance an actual solution.

Elmer wrote:
I do think it isn't reasonable to assume that, for a team that's losing 90+ games, that there's not a single free agent in the class who might be a fit before the offseason even begins.

I agree, but those free agents are candidates for the bench. Free agent starting candidates do not fit within the mold you set.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:35 pm 
No, those aren't the reasons. I come to this board for baseball discussion and enjoyment. I do not enjoy discussing baseball with YOU so why would I bother? I'd be happy to have these discussions with some other posters and undoubtedly will as this offseason unfolds.

Since I didn't agree with your post, I'm fully expecting you to "pull an Econo" and make a personal attack. Go for it!


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:43 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
No, those aren't the reasons. I come to this board for baseball discussion and enjoyment. I do not enjoy discussing baseball with YOU so why would I bother? I'd be happy to have these discussions with some other posters and undoubtedly will as this offseason unfolds.

Since I didn't agree with your post, I'm fully expecting you to "pull an Econo" and make a personal attack. Go for it!

If you insist...

Your feet smell.

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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:27 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer,
They tried last season, how many guys turned down offers to play for us? Some of which I am happy(J. Estrada)!


Erik Estrada would have been a better fit imo.


If the Pirates are able to sign Erik Estrada in any capacity, I am totally fine with that. Maybe bullpen catcher. The laughs that would result from him warming up pithcers in a CHIPS outfit would be worth whatever they would have to spend.


Attachments:
erik_estrada.jpg
erik_estrada.jpg [ 47.46 KiB | Viewed 218 times ]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:38 pm 
Great pic. I think the Pirates should have a "CHiPS Day" at the park next year. The players would wear Chips uniforms instead of Pirates uniforms. They could give away Ponch and John bobbleheads, those two could sit at Manny's BBQ and sign autographs. They'd actually get a nice size crowd, I think.

We may be onto something here.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:36 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Piratefan13 wrote:
Quote:
Come on man. You want to throw in the towel on 2009 before 2008 has even ended?


Quote:
Shifting gears, so you don't think the the team should try to win next year?


Elmer, I respect you and your arguments, but your not getting the point at all here.

Sure the Pirates are going to try and win next season, but what they are NOT going to do is panic and feel like they have to "buy" players to have a winning season. If we are going to win, its going to be from within. So here's to our young players stepping up next season and taking us to a new level. Who knows, if they are in position at the deadline, NH will make a move to put us over the top. But I am a realist, some of the players are still developing, some of are players had major setbacks this season, they will have to prove that they are worthy of remaining MLB players.


I'd agree that they shouldn't panic next year and just buy players a la Burnitz and Randa. But if there's a free agent deal that makes sense (especially a deal that will help them win in 2009, 2010 and 2011) I hope they go for it.

I view it like this - I think 2010 is their BEST CHANCE to win, but I think winning is POSSIBLE any year. I hope they keep that in mind when evaluating potential players this offeason.

If you think that 2010 is their best chance you are nuts. It's their FIRST chance. Their BEST chance will come sometime after 2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:38 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Sure, it's possible that the Pirates contend in 2009. It is also possible that MLB cancels the 2009 season entirely. But is it likely?

It makes most sense to build expectations not on what is possible, but on what is probable.


I believe a professional sports team should do everything it can to win every game of every season.

Sure you do. After all, it isn't your money that's being flushed down the toilet.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:18 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Sure, it's possible that the Pirates contend in 2009. It is also possible that MLB cancels the 2009 season entirely. But is it likely?

It makes most sense to build expectations not on what is possible, but on what is probable.


I believe a professional sports team should do everything it can to win every game of every season.

Sure you do. After all, it isn't your money that's being flushed down the toilet.


No, it's not my money. Where did you get that?????

It's just the reason a team takes the field in any sport, to win. I think there's a certain unspoken promise that when you pay to see a sports team play (no matter the sport, no matter the level) everyone on that team, and those running the team, are doing everything they can to win.

Gosh, you're abrasive.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:21 pm 
sisyphus wrote:
If you think that 2010 is their best chance you are nuts. It's their FIRST chance. Their BEST chance will come sometime after 2010.


I agree, sort of. Their best chance will, indeed, come after 2010, so long as they spend the money to retain key players and don't re-enter the perpetual rebuilding thing with more trades. You are right about the "sometime after" 2010 for their best chance.

I don't think their FIRST chance is 2010. Their first chance is 2009. There's a chance to win every year. I hope they take advantage of that chance and continue to build this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:01 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
No, it's not my money. Where did you get that?????

It's just the reason a team takes the field in any sport, to win. I think there's a certain unspoken promise that when you pay to see a sports team play (no matter the sport, no matter the level) everyone on that team, and those running the team, are doing everything they can to win.

Hence my remark that it wasn't your money being flushed down the toilet.

Quote:
Gosh, you're abrasive.

Yep, I sure am.

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"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


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 Post subject: Re: Nate a Yankee??
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:04 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
If you think that 2010 is their best chance you are nuts. It's their FIRST chance. Their BEST chance will come sometime after 2010.


I agree, sort of. Their best chance will, indeed, come after 2010, so long as they spend the money to retain key players and don't re-enter the perpetual rebuilding thing with more trades. You are right about the "sometime after" 2010 for their best chance.

I don't think their FIRST chance is 2010. Their first chance is 2009. There's a chance to win every year. I hope they take advantage of that chance and continue to build this team.

Yes, there is a chance that they could win in 2009, and there is a chance that my cat will start coughing up hairballs of solid gold. I'm more interested in what's LIKELY to happen.

I must admit that there is a better chance of a winning 2009 for the Pirates than there is for solid gold hairballs, though. :lol:

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