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 Post subject: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:52 pm 
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I doubt that JR is the right skipper for this young pirates team..

It has nothing to do with all late critics on him, heck, i even like him, but liking some-one does not
make hip the right person in the right place.. In a rebuilding team, in my opinion, you need a more veteran
manager then a first-year one, you need a more veteran pitching-coach and on..
Someone who makes kids better and fire them on.. i am missing that with Russel

i would root for bringing in a manager with a reputation.. bring in Cox!!

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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:16 pm 
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Russell is a great manager for this team, or most any team.

Level headed, makes his player accountable, doesn't embarass them in public but calls them in private. And, a teacher of the right way to play.

Plus, he feels no compunction to be a high school cheerleader, screamer...

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:52 am 
ZelieMike wrote:
Russell is a great manager for this team, or most any team.

Level headed, makes his player accountable, doesn't embarass them in public but calls them in private. And, a teacher of the right way to play.

Plus, he feels no compunction to be a high school cheerleader, screamer...

ZM


I would like to see him argue that call with Freddy the other night. The fact he didn't just sent the wrong message. For the most part, though, I've been content with JR. The losing his hardly his fault.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:06 am 
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Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Russell is a great manager for this team, or most any team.

Level headed, makes his player accountable, doesn't embarass them in public but calls them in private. And, a teacher of the right way to play.

Plus, he feels no compunction to be a high school cheerleader, screamer...

ZM


I would like to see him argue that call with Freddy the other night. The fact he didn't just sent the wrong message. For the most part, though, I've been content with JR. The losing his hardly his fault.


Accountability (you know, the thing we all want from this organization) starts at the top. That means Thief Russel is responsible for every single loss this season...period.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:11 am 
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
Russell is a great manager for this team, or most any team.

Level headed, makes his player accountable, doesn't embarass them in public but calls them in private. And, a teacher of the right way to play.

Plus, he feels no compunction to be a high school cheerleader, screamer...

ZM


I would like to see him argue that call with Freddy the other night. The fact he didn't just sent the wrong message. For the most part, though, I've been content with JR. The losing his hardly his fault.


Accountability (you know, the thing we all want from this organization) starts at the top. That means Thief Russel is responsible for every single loss this season...period.


If it starts at the top, that means Nutting is responsible. Russel isn't in charge of the entire organization.

I'm with you on the accountability thing, I just don't agree with where you assign that accountability.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:15 pm 
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Elmer wrote:

If it starts at the top, that means Nutting is responsible. Russel isn't in charge of the entire organization.

I'm with you on the accountability thing, I just don't agree with where you assign that accountability.



They all share in the failure of this team. Thief doesn't get a free pass. Managers pay the price for teams underperforming all the time. Hall of Fame managers have been canned.

Both the manager and the pitching coach need to take bite out of this shit sandwich.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:07 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
Elmer wrote:

If it starts at the top, that means Nutting is responsible. Russel isn't in charge of the entire organization.

I'm with you on the accountability thing, I just don't agree with where you assign that accountability.



They all share in the failure of this team. Thief doesn't get a free pass. Managers pay the price for teams underperforming all the time. Hall of Fame managers have been canned.

Both the manager and the pitching coach need to take bite out of this shit sandwich.


This time, I agree -- you said they "all share" in the failure, which is true. It was saying that accountability "starts at the top" then pointing to Russel that I don't agree with. Russel is not at the top. Everyone shares the responsibility when losses come (if you really are going to follow the "accountability" sermon), I just don't think Russel's share is very big.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Managers pay the price for teams underperforming all the time. Hall of Fame managers have been canned.

Both the manager and the pitching coach need to take bite out of this shit sandwich.


I guess you would have to convince me that the team is underperforming, though, for this to be a valid argument. I think its pretty apparent that they are performing right at about the level of expectations, given their talent and experience levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:20 pm 
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Quote:
Russell is a great manager for this team, or most any team.

Level headed, makes his player accountable, doesn't embarass them in public but calls them in private. And, a teacher of the right way to play.


i agree john is a great manager, for most teams indeed, but not for this pirates ball club..
They need some-one who can make younger players better, not just accountable.. i just can't get it that
guys as Moss and Laroche are playing worser here then @ Boston or Los Angeles.. That just tells me Francona
is getting more from youngsters as Russell & Co do.. This Pirates team does not need mr NiceGuys.. they need a mix of it.. For Example.. Mr Braves Bobby Cox isn't always mr Nice Guy.. but look what he does as a manager.. i'll take it

and great managers never embarass their players (else he would not be that great).

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New Amsterdam was a Dutch settlement est. at the southern tip of Manhattan Island which served as seat of the colonial government in the New Dutch territory. It was renamed New York in honor of the then Duke of York.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:53 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Managers pay the price for teams underperforming all the time. Hall of Fame managers have been canned.

Both the manager and the pitching coach need to take bite out of this shit sandwich.


I guess you would have to convince me that the team is underperforming, though, for this to be a valid argument. I think its pretty apparent that they are performing right at about the level of expectations, given their talent and experience levels.


A coaching staff is suppossed to do this thing called coaching. Generally speaking, coaching makes players better. This team (especially the pitching) actually got worse as the season went along.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
(especially the pitching) actually got worse as the season went along.


Really? You think the pitching got worse as the season went along? Really?

Then this conversation is over.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:02 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
(especially the pitching) actually got worse as the season went along.


Really? You think the pitching got worse as the season went along? Really?

Then this conversation is over.



Oh no BBF, giving up double digit runs every night is a huge improvement!


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:20 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
BBF wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
(especially the pitching) actually got worse as the season went along.


Really? You think the pitching got worse as the season went along? Really?

Then this conversation is over.



Oh no BBF, giving up double digit runs every night is a huge improvement!

Team Pitching Splits for the 2008 Pittsburgh Pirates:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/ps ... &year=2008
Code:
Split        G    IP     ERA    H    R   ER   HR  BB  IBB  SO  HBP
----------+----+------+------+----+----+----+---+----+---+----+---+
1st Half    376  853.1   5.24  983  528  497 112  388  17  548  32
2nd Half    254  549.1   5.03  610  333  307  60  243  13  378  16

Explain away that, Jeremy.

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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:30 pm 
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it is still SUCKABLE ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Explain away that, Jeremy.



Explain what away? A 5.03 ERA is still pathetic and a sure fire way to lose 100 games. Especially when your "genius" GM traded away the two best offensive players on the roster.

So what you end up with is a pitching staff that still sucks (only one starter has an ERA under 4.98), an offense that's worse than pathetic, and a coaching staff that's stealing money from the FO by not actually coaching anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:45 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Explain away that, Jeremy.



Explain what away? A 5.03 ERA is still pathetic and a sure fire way to lose 100 games. Especially when your "genius" GM traded away the two best offensive players on the roster.

So what you end up with is a pitching staff that still sucks (only one starter has an ERA under 4.98), an offense that's worse than pathetic, and a coaching staff that's stealing money from the FO by not actually coaching anyone.


How were Nady and Bay going to help the pitching staff? They were OFer's

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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:49 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Explain away that, Jeremy.



Explain what away? A 5.03 ERA is still pathetic and a sure fire way to lose 100 games. Especially when your "genius" GM traded away the two best offensive players on the roster.

So what you end up with is a pitching staff that still sucks (only one starter has an ERA under 4.98), an offense that's worse than pathetic, and a coaching staff that's stealing money from the FO by not actually coaching anyone.


How were Nady and Bay going to help the pitching staff? They were OFer's



It's called run support. It's helpful when your pitching coach quit coaching two months ago and your rotation couldn't break .500 in the International League.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:00 pm 
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Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Explain away that, Jeremy.



Explain what away? A 5.03 ERA is still pathetic and a sure fire way to lose 100 games. Especially when your "genius" GM traded away the two best offensive players on the roster.

So what you end up with is a pitching staff that still sucks (only one starter has an ERA under 4.98), an offense that's worse than pathetic, and a coaching staff that's stealing money from the FO by not actually coaching anyone.

You claimed that the pitching staff got worse over the course of the season. The splits above CLEARLY SHOW that the Pirates' pitching improved over the course of the season. Now you're blaming the team's pitching woes on the loss of two offensive players. You are an idiot. Q.E.D.

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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Jeremy wrote:
Willton wrote:
Explain away that, Jeremy.



Explain what away? A 5.03 ERA is still pathetic and a sure fire way to lose 100 games. Especially when your "genius" GM traded away the two best offensive players on the roster.

So what you end up with is a pitching staff that still sucks (only one starter has an ERA under 4.98), an offense that's worse than pathetic, and a coaching staff that's stealing money from the FO by not actually coaching anyone.

You claimed that the pitching staff got worse over the course of the season. The splits shown above CLEARLY SHOWS that the Pirates' pitching improved over the course of the season. Now you're blaming the team's pitching woes on the loss of two offensive players. You are an idiot. Q.E.D.


I'm the idiot? Yeah, I'm the one using unequal sample sizes to support a thin argument. Over 300 less innings in your second half stat plit. Even with the smaller sample size, the difference in ERA is thin.

The fact is the Pirates take the field knowing they need to outscore the opposing team because their starting rotation is the second worst in Major League Baseball. And if Bedard hadn't gotten hurt in Seattle, they'd be the worst.


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 Post subject: Re: Skipper John Russel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:32 pm 
Jeremy wrote:
I'm the idiot? Yeah, I'm the one using unequal sample sizes to support a thin argument. Over 300 less innings in your second half stat plit. Even with the smaller sample size, the difference in ERA is thin.

The fact is the Pirates take the field knowing they need to outscore the opposing team because their starting rotation is the second worst in Major League Baseball. And if Bedard hadn't gotten hurt in Seattle, they'd be the worst.


Don't let him bring you down, Jeremy. When someone disagrees with Willton, he resorts to name-calling. He only makes himself look bad.


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