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 Post subject: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:08 pm 
Last offseson and into the spring, I was a big Nyjer Morgan supporter and wanted him to win the starting job over Nate McLouth. I said Morgan was a better player than McLouth.

Clearly, I was wrong. I'm very glad I was wrong because McLouth has proven to be a very, very, good player.

However, Morgan has shown he could be a serviceable major leaguer in recent weeks. Now I want to see if those who said Morgan could never contribute at the major leauge level can also admit they were wrong. Willton, especially, over exaggerated how "bad" Morgan is. Willton, you said Morgan would never wear a major league uniform again when he got sent down in April.

He's wearing it and contributing. Man up and admit you were wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:31 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
He's wearing it and contributing. Man up and admit you were wrong.


Wow. 24 games is enough to say he is a serviceable major leaguer? And enough to completely disregard his first 50 games? And his minor league record? After, of course, you and your buddy MM told us not to buy anything that McLouth did last year because it was only one month. And, of course, after all the success other outfielders in Morgan's mold- Duffy, Brown, Redman- followed up good August/September's with stellar careers. In other words, I think it is far too early for you to be forcing anyone to eat their words.

I think Willton went overboard in saying that Nyjer would never be a big leaguer, but I do believe that Nyjer's ceiling is somewhere close to what Willy Taveras is doing this season. And those are not the types of players that the Pirates should be interested in collecting.

EDIT: I also meant to add that you should check Nyjer's BABIP, as well. Since all of his production has been batting average-driven, I'm pretty sure it will drop off when his BABIP falls below .400.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:14 pm 
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I know Adam is going command $6 million next year, but I say you bring him back for one more season and see if he shakes that first half jinx off. It probably would be god to have him around to push his brother too.

But I don't think he should get a long-term or even a short term contract unless in averages less than $6 million per year.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:32 pm 
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bucco boy wrote:
I know Adam is going command $6 million next year, but I say you bring him back for one more season and see if he shakes that first half jinx off. It probably would be god to have him around to push his brother too.

But I don't think he should get a long-term or even a short term contract unless in averages less than $6 million per year.


When the trade went down for Little LaRoche I thought the same about Andy being able to push and motivate Adam...nothing like having a little brother rip on you and nag you about your struggles in April...

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:51 pm 
BBF wrote:
Wow. 24 games is enough to say he is a serviceable major leaguer?


For one thing, he has 78 career big league games and a .284 average. But even that is not enough to crown him a serviceable major leaguer for sure, I will agree there. But it certainly is enough to suggest it is very possible.

This is odd on this a board where people are willing to make every excuse in the book for guys/teams/owners not performing because we need to "give it time" Basically, some on this board make excuses and say bad numbers DON'T necessarily reflect future performance. But when a guy IS performing who you happen to not like, you won't give credit where it is due.

I'm not forgetting his spring and early season. I'm not calling him a future star any more. I'm not even saying he's a big league starter.

I'm asking those of you who were sooooo hard on him simply because he wasn't McLouth to give the guy credit where it is due.

BBF wrote:
After, of course, you and your buddy MM told us not to buy anything that McLouth did last year because it was only one month.


I'm only going to speak for myself. I've admitted I was wrong about McLouth. I'm glad I was wrong. What does that have to do with Nyjer Morgan's chance of future success? He's playing well. Give credit where it is due.

BBF wrote:
And, of course, after all the success other outfielders in Morgan's mold- Duffy, Brown, Redman- followed up good August/September's with stellar careers.


When did I predict that Duffy, Brown or Redman would have stellar careers? How do their failures predict the failures of Morgan?

BBF wrote:
In other words, I think it is far too early for you to be forcing anyone to eat their words.



I'm not forcing anyone except Willton -- a guy who never will admit he's wrong -- to heat his words. It's not too early for that because Willton was FLAT OUT wrong HERE. He said Morgan would never be a big leaguer again. Morgan is a big league again.

For others, I'd just like to see you give Morgan his due. He's playing pretty well right now.

BBF wrote:
I think Willton went overboard in saying that Nyjer would never be a big leaguer,


Obviously

BBF wrote:
but I do believe that Nyjer's ceiling is somewhere close to what Willy Taveras is doing this season.


Maybe. I think his ceiling is higher, but Taveras has been a *major league* contributor at
times in his career, so we're sort of in agreement on the overall point.

BBF wrote:
And those are not the types of players that the Pirates should be interested in collecting.
[/quote]

Whether the Pirates should be collecting players like Morgan is another topic entirely. That is not the point of my post. My point is to give the guy credit where it is due. He's playing well yet the board is conspicuously silent in even the smallest sprinkling of praise for his good play.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:52 pm 
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The Pirates have a severe lack of speed in the organization. Even though Morgan is fast, he is still learning how to steal bases. He's a little old to be still developing that skill. I see Morgan as a bench player, some speed of the bench, etc. His best bet would be to develop good plate discipline so he can be an exceptional player off the bench.

There is frankly no room for him in this outfield. Next season will probably be the 3 M's - - McLouth, McCutchen, and Moss. Morgan will hopefully be a good bench player that can play all 3 OF spots.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:53 pm 
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Forgot to mention Pearce... Can you say flash in the pan? He has zero plate discipline, something he was supposed to work on at AAA this season. Guess it didn't take.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:08 pm 
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Was watching Pearce swinging at curveballs last night. He had absolutely no idea where the ball was. He would have been better off just standing there like a statue.

He is not looking like a candidate for the big club next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:55 pm 
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Regarding Pearce, I think his quote in the PG from a couple weeks ago, the one after he had the game winning hit, says it all. It was basically to the effect that he understands in a bases loaded, one run situation, that a walk and a hit are equivalent, but he's looking to swing away regardless. Needless to say, I gave up on him right there. Guys like Vlad Guerrero can be successful with that approach, but I don't think I need to point out the differences between Vlad and Pearce.

Regarding the "point" the OP was trying to make, it appears that the purpose of the thread was solely to embarrass someone else publicly. I would imagine if we went through the posts of everyone on this board, each commenter would find old posts that he or she disagrees with now. Actively calling someone out on those posts in a new thread requires a level of pettiness that I can't imagine any adult actually possessing.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
However, Morgan has shown he could be a serviceable major leaguer in recent weeks. Now I want to see if those who said Morgan could never contribute at the major leauge level can also admit they were wrong. Willton, especially, over exaggerated how "bad" Morgan is. Willton, you said Morgan would never wear a major league uniform again when he got sent down in April.

He's wearing it and contributing. Man up and admit you were wrong.

Yes, Morgan is now back in the majors and wearing a major league uniform, so I guess I was wrong about that. I suppose that was bound to happen, given the lack of depth in the Pirates system and the eventual September callups of minor league players. But as for exaggerating over how bad Morgan is, no, I'm not wrong. Morgan has hit .276/.329/.358 so far this year. That's really bad. That's as bad as Ronny Paulino hit last year, and at least Paulino was playing a more difficult defensive position. What's worse is that Morgan's minor league numbers don't say anything different: he was a terrible hitter in AAA Indy, and he has over 340 plate appearances on his record to show us that.* I expect more from a bench player who wants to keep his job.

Morgan's string of good hitting over the last few weeks is exactly that: a string of good hitting only over a few weeks. How one hits over a mere 100 plate appearances tells you very little about how serviceable a player will be. In this instance, it's show us how lucky Morgan is (BABIP from Aug-Sept is over .400, which is unsustainably high). Might I remind you that Chris Duffy had an even better string of good hitting over an even longer period in 2005, and look where it got him. We're supposed to be learning from our mistakes (see Duffy), not repeating them (see Morgan).

Morgan is not a serviceable player. He is 28-year-old punch-and-judy hitter who has no upside whatsoever. It's an absolute travesty that he's playing ahead of Pearce, who is younger and has at least some upside.

*Morgan has hit a mere 1 homerun this year, minor league and major league numbers combined. Image

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:39 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
When did I predict that Duffy, Brown or Redman would have stellar careers? How do their failures predict the failures of Morgan?

Morgan has the exact same skill set that Duffy, Brown, and Redman had: good footspeed, mediocre ability to hit for contact, poor plate discipline, absolutely no power. The only worthwhile tool any of the latter three had was speed, and that did not help them get on base except in very limited circumstances. Morgan is eminently comparable to Duffy, Brown, and Redman, and Morgan's career will likely follow those of Duffy, Brown, and Redman.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:20 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
When did I predict that Duffy, Brown or Redman would have stellar careers? How do their failures predict the failures of Morgan?

Morgan has the exact same skill set that Duffy, Brown, and Redman had: good footspeed, mediocre ability to hit for contact, poor plate discipline, absolutely no power. The only worthwhile tool any of the latter three had was speed, and that did not help them get on base except in very limited circumstances. Morgan is eminently comparable to Duffy, Brown, and Redman, and Morgan's career will likely follow those of Duffy, Brown, and Redman.


Maybe, but again, that's not what this post is about. He's playing well right now. Admit it. Give credit where it is due.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:23 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Last offseson and into the spring, I was a big Nyjer Morgan supporter and wanted him to win the starting job over Nate McLouth. I said Morgan was a better player than McLouth.

Clearly, I was wrong. I'm very glad I was wrong because McLouth has proven to be a very, very, good player.

However, Morgan has shown he could be a serviceable major leaguer in recent weeks. Now I want to see if those who said Morgan could never contribute at the major leauge level can also admit they were wrong. Willton, especially, over exaggerated how "bad" Morgan is. Willton, you said Morgan would never wear a major league uniform again when he got sent down in April.

He's wearing it and contributing. Man up and admit you were wrong.

I'd be glad to man up and admit that I was wrong if I was wrong. I'm not wrong. You are claiming that Morgan is a serviceable major leaguer based on his performance in 25 games. I'm basing my opinion on his entire major and minor league career. Methinks you have forgotten the clear examples set by Tike Redman and Chris Duffy. Morgan's ceiling is pinch runner and occasional starter, and he'll only reach THAT ceiling if he learns how to slide and when to try for an extra base.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:30 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
For one thing, he has 78 career big league games and a .284 average. But even that is not enough to crown him a serviceable major leaguer for sure, I will agree there. But it certainly is enough to suggest it is very possible.

This is odd on this a board where people are willing to make every excuse in the book for guys/teams/owners not performing because we need to "give it time" Basically, some on this board make excuses and say bad numbers DON'T necessarily reflect future performance. But when a guy IS performing who you happen to not like, you won't give credit where it is due.

You think it's odd that people are consistent?

Quote:
I'm not forgetting his spring and early season. I'm not calling him a future star any more. I'm not even saying he's a big league starter.

I'm asking those of you who were sooooo hard on him simply because he wasn't McLouth to give the guy credit where it is due.

I wasn't hard on him because he wasn't McLouth. I was hard on him because he was Nyjer Morgan, and Nyjer Morgan isn't a very good ballplayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
When did I predict that Duffy, Brown or Redman would have stellar careers? How do their failures predict the failures of Morgan?

Morgan has the exact same skill set that Duffy, Brown, and Redman had: good footspeed, mediocre ability to hit for contact, poor plate discipline, absolutely no power. The only worthwhile tool any of the latter three had was speed, and that did not help them get on base except in very limited circumstances. Morgan is eminently comparable to Duffy, Brown, and Redman, and Morgan's career will likely follow those of Duffy, Brown, and Redman.


Maybe, but again, that's not what this post is about. He's playing well right now. Admit it. Give credit where it is due.


Hold on a sec here...he's supposed to admit he's wrong about the guy's entire career because Morgan is playing well right at this moment? That is the entire point of this thread?

Is there any way this entire thread can be deleted and never spoken of again?


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
When did I predict that Duffy, Brown or Redman would have stellar careers? How do their failures predict the failures of Morgan?

Morgan has the exact same skill set that Duffy, Brown, and Redman had: good footspeed, mediocre ability to hit for contact, poor plate discipline, absolutely no power. The only worthwhile tool any of the latter three had was speed, and that did not help them get on base except in very limited circumstances. Morgan is eminently comparable to Duffy, Brown, and Redman, and Morgan's career will likely follow those of Duffy, Brown, and Redman.


Maybe, but again, that's not what this post is about. He's playing well right now. Admit it. Give credit where it is due.

It's not due. When his August/September hitting extends for a longer period of time and for more than 100 plate appearances, and when he starts hitting more than 1 HR per year, then maybe credit will be due. It's certainly not due now.

Morgan is terrible now, he has been terrible in the past, and he will continue to be terrible in the future. I don't know why the Pirates are messing around with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:12 pm 
Willton wrote:
It's not due. When his August/September hitting extends for a longer period of time and for more than 100 plate appearances, and when he starts hitting more than 1 HR per year, then maybe credit will be due. It's certainly not due now.

Morgan is terrible now, he has been terrible in the past, and he will continue to be terrible in the future. I don't know why the Pirates are messing around with him.


It used to annoy me when you would refuse to admit you were wrong. Now i just find it amusing.

Whether or not he has a future is a reasonable debate.

But since he's been recalled, he is not terrible. Your "Morgan is terrible now" statement is simply untrue and makes you look foolish.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:49 pm 
jaybee24 wrote:
Hold on a sec here...he's supposed to admit he's wrong about the guy's entire career because Morgan is playing well right at this moment? That is the entire point of this thread?


No, he's not supposed to admit that at all, jaybee. You misread.

I wanted him to admit he was wrong in saying that Morgan would never be in the big leagues again. He is in the big leagues again. That's pretty black and white.

He also should admit that the guy is playing well at this moment, as you have posted yourself. Willton won't even do that. Willton said Morgan is playing "terrible" right now, which is simply not true.

I didn't say Willton or anyone should admit anything about Morgan's entire career. I've posted several times that I agree this topic is debate worthy. It's more than reasonable to say he'll flop in the future, and it's more than reasonable to think he'll succeed in the future.

But saying Morgan is "terrible" right now is not reasonable. He's clearly playing well right now. Willton can't admit that.


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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:02 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
Willton wrote:
It's not due. When his August/September hitting extends for a longer period of time and for more than 100 plate appearances, and when he starts hitting more than 1 HR per year, then maybe credit will be due. It's certainly not due now.

Morgan is terrible now, he has been terrible in the past, and he will continue to be terrible in the future. I don't know why the Pirates are messing around with him.


It used to annoy me when you would refuse to admit you were wrong. Now i just find it amusing.

Whether or not he has a future is a reasonable debate.

But since he's been recalled, he is not terrible. Your "Morgan is terrible now" statement is simply untrue and makes you look foolish.

Really? Anyone else here think that my statement is "simply untrue and makes [me] look foolish," or is it just Elmer?

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 Post subject: Re: Nyjer Morgan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:39 pm 
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With this and the continuous agrument over the team not trying and pinning the 16 years of losing on Neal and Frank...

This is going to be one long offseason on the board...


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