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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:33 am 
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Ryann wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
nad69dan
You must really be happy with bobbleheads!


Oh yeah, I got them all over my house along with my Grammy's...

I just see the reality in it...

"Rome wasn't built in a day!!!"

Rome wasnt built in a day...BUT....a baseball team should be built in 16 years!



Correction... We only started making progress at the end of last year. Its not the new managements fault that there was 15 years of inept handling of the team. Your argument has lost credibility weeks ago, why can't the likes of you guys understand that there is NEW management, NEW decision making(which I am impressed with), NEW direction, and NEW talent?

You have every right to watch the team or not, complain or not, but with complaints must come solutions. I have not heard word one, the solutions that each of you suggest would turn around the Pirates in 1 year. The question has been asked many times, but yet no answers, just more complaints.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:27 am 
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Why can't the likes of you understand that we are tired of management asking us to be patient while they turn this thing around. I understand that its new management, new direction, new systems, etc, but its the same message year after year after year. "BE PATIENT"

Its been 16 years, I'm tired of being patient, your new ideas are fine and dandy, but just fucking win already.

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:04 pm 
omgardd wrote:
Why can't the likes of you understand that we are tired of management asking us to be patient while they turn this thing around. I understand that its new management, new direction, new systems, etc, but its the same message year after year after year. "BE PATIENT"

Its been 16 years, I'm tired of being patient, your new ideas are fine and dandy, but just fucking win already.


I'm with you partially omgardd. I'm willing to be patient to a point because some things have changed recently. Being patient, though, doesn't mean being an apologist and refusing to criticize.

And the bottom line, as you colorfully said, is wins. Wins are what matter period, period, period.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:12 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
Why can't the likes of you understand that we are tired of management asking us to be patient while they turn this thing around. I understand that its new management, new direction, new systems, etc, but its the same message year after year after year. "BE PATIENT"

Its been 16 years, I'm tired of being patient, your new ideas are fine and dandy, but just fucking win already.

It's totally understandable to be frustrated with a team after 16 years of losing. But stomping your feet and sulking is not going to make the team win more. And if the Pirates were to go for broke next season and buy up every free agent they can that they think would help, they'd be doing themselves more harm than good. See the Seattle Mariners, the Baltimore Orioles, and the San Francisco Giants.

The fact of the matter is that the rebuilding efforts of years past were half-assed attempts at rebuilding that ultimately failed because the people in the front office had no idea what they were doing. Rebuilding takes disciplined and measured decision-making, and this current front office, from all appearances, is doing it correctly. Often times you have to suffer through the bad times in order to get to the good. See the Milwaukee Brewers. If this front office continues to make good decisions like it has done this year, we may see that light at the end of the tunnel in the next few years.

But if that does not satisfy you, then stop watching. Nobody is forcing you to suffer through what you claim to be suffering through. If you don't like it, then offer some viable solutions or do something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:37 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Rebuilding takes disciplined and measured decision-making, and this current front office, from all appearances, is doing it correctly. If this front office continues to make good decisions like it has done this year, we may see that light at the end of the tunnel in the next few years.
But if that does not satisfy you, then stop watching. Nobody is forcing you to suffer through what you claim to be suffering through. If you don't like it, then offer some viable solutions or do something else.


There is only evidence that changes have been made. Disciplined? Good Decisions? Correctly? Only time will tell. Have you also considered that the trades could have made them even worse? Short term they are worse. Long term you can not say if it was good or not.
How good does it look the way the #1 pick is in court and looking like he will not be a Pirate? From all appearances, you cant assume management has done anything correctly.

You are right about not watching.

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:35 pm 
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Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
Why can't the likes of you understand that we are tired of management asking us to be patient while they turn this thing around. I understand that its new management, new direction, new systems, etc, but its the same message year after year after year. "BE PATIENT"

Its been 16 years, I'm tired of being patient, your new ideas are fine and dandy, but just fucking win already.

It's totally understandable to be frustrated with a team after 16 years of losing. But stomping your feet and sulking is not going to make the team win more. And if the Pirates were to go for broke next season and buy up every free agent they can that they think would help, they'd be doing themselves more harm than good. See the Seattle Mariners, the Baltimore Orioles, and the San Francisco Giants.

The fact of the matter is that the rebuilding efforts of years past were half-assed attempts at rebuilding that ultimately failed because the people in the front office had no idea what they were doing. Rebuilding takes disciplined and measured decision-making, and this current front office, from all appearances, is doing it correctly. Often times you have to suffer through the bad times in order to get to the good. See the Milwaukee Brewers. If this front office continues to make good decisions like it has done this year, we may see that light at the end of the tunnel in the next few years.

But if that does not satisfy you, then stop watching. Nobody is forcing you to suffer through what you claim to be suffering through. If you don't like it, then offer some viable solutions or do something else.


I just want to add on here Wilton, the previous GM's tried to offer a rebuild plan but weren't disciplined enough to see it through. They began to panic like some Pirate fans, thinking that we need to sell our soul to win now just so we don't continue a streak. Big deal, so what if we lost 16 years straight. At least we have won a WS in this century, see Chicago Cubs(at least until this season is over). What I don't get is that the Cubs haven't been to the WS since 1945, but yet the Pirates are hapless.

I am a true Pirate fan, I enjoyed the 1979 series, and the 91,92 playoff runs, but I truly hate what they became under Cam Bonifay and David Littlefield. Baseball has sucked in this town for 16 years, but I stay true to my team.

BH, Elmer, and the rest of the guys were at least spared the anguish I suffered during the Bonifay and Littlefield era's, its probably good that I didn't find this site yet. My solution then was to blow up the entire organization, top to bottom. Frankly, I am getting my wish. It takes vision to see through the trades, the transactions, and the play on the field. If you look hard enough you will see the drastic differences that NH and the rest of the new management system offers. Most of you guys are only seeing what is on the surface, the inconisistent play of the young players, and the trading of our better players. Here are three points to which we had to trade Nady and Bay.

1. The organization lacked significant depth. If we decided to keep Bay and Nady, purchased a "top dollar" pitcher, and made a go at it, if one of those guys got hurt the entire season would be a wash because there would be no depth in the organization. We already seen that with starting pitching.

2. Nady would be departing Pittsburgh when he became a FA, with Boras as his agent, there would be no way I'd pay top dollar for a guy who would be on the down side of his career. As far as Bay goes, sure he is a nice player, but the money that would be required to keep him when he became a FA would be outragious, and frankly he is no "Manny." And we would lose both of those guys with little or no compensation(Bay might have been a "B" or maybe an "A" FA).

3. We need to build a team that all peaks together around players like McCutchen, McLouth, and Doumit. When players like Alvarez, Walker, Tabata, Morris(from LA), and possibly Lincoln are reaching the ML team, McLouth, Doumit, Maholm, A.McCutchen, Moss, and the LaRoches'(if any are still around) will be the seasoned veterans that will lead this team. Throw in a top tier pitcher at the deadline and we would be competing.

The first step in fixing a problem is identifying the sources of the problem, consider this year as a year that NH and company isolated and identified core problems of this organization. What they have been doing is attempting to rectify those problems, but more is needed. I foresee more front office firings and more changes in the scouting department, maybe even new coaches. Most of us Pirate fans on this site are NOT happy with the continous losing, BUT we do have the vision to see that this club has at least put a plan in action to turn the corner.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:39 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
Why can't the likes of you understand that we are tired of management asking us to be patient while they turn this thing around. I understand that its new management, new direction, new systems, etc, but its the same message year after year after year. "BE PATIENT"

Its been 16 years, I'm tired of being patient, your new ideas are fine and dandy, but just fucking win already.


Apparently you have 2 choices in this situation.

1. Suck it up and enjoy the process.

2. Find a team that is willing to spend chunks of money to "hopefully" win, like Wilton said, see Orioles, Tigers, and Mariners. The Tigers and Mariners were being touted as playoff caliber and maybe even WS caliber teams before the season started. The Yankees are always available... ooops, they didn't make the playoffs either, how much money did they spend this year?


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:31 pm 
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Omgardd- I'm no prude but this board has avoided using that kind of language and I hope we continue that way. I do understand your need to strongly express yourself to others but please respect others enough to not do that again. Many other boards are full of that kind of talk, we are not and I hope we stay that way.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:51 pm 
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Piratefan13 wrote:
I have not heard word one, the solutions that each of you suggest would turn around the Pirates in 1 year. The question has been asked many times, but yet no answers, just more complaints.


Cricketts chirping...

Tumbleweed blowing across empty street...

Still waiting...

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