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 Post subject: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:07 am 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08261/912675-63.stm

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:15 am 
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well from what he said, I take it that most of the team is going through the motions. Some may take that to mean that they quit. All I know is that if I was a player and was told before the season started that the tools were there(laughable)and then they traded the best tools for prospects, that sends the message to the rest of the team that ownership/management quit.
Those of you who keep supporting the sham, how much more can you take?

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:20 am 
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bullishhitter wrote:
well from what he said, I take it that most of the team is going through the motions. Some may take that to mean that they quit. All I know is that if I was a player and was told before the season started that the tools were there(laughable)and then they traded the best tools for prospects, that sends the message to the rest of the team that ownership/management quit.
Those of you who keep supporting the sham, how much more can you take?


Remain calm! All is well!

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:08 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
bullishhitter wrote:
well from what he said, I take it that most of the team is going through the motions. Some may take that to mean that they quit. All I know is that if I was a player and was told before the season started that the tools were there(laughable)and then they traded the best tools for prospects, that sends the message to the rest of the team that ownership/management quit.
Those of you who keep supporting the sham, how much more can you take?


Remain calm! All is well!

http://images.dawgsports.com/images/adm ... _House.jpg


I'll concede that this is the best thing you've put forth so far to show that the Pirates are giving up. However, I'm still convinced that the core players who matter still care, as McLouth's eye will attest.

I am concerned about Russell though. My take on managing is that a young team needs a fired up manager to motivate them whereas a veteran team needs a cooler head (think Torre with the Yankees). Russell is just too laid back sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:27 pm 
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I don't think they've given up....I doubt that any "professional" athlete would ever do that. It runs against the grain.

I do think that NH drastically underestimated the effects the trades of Nady and Bay would have on this club. I really think that he was expecting them to still hover around .500, even with those guys gone.

The fact is that they sucked the life out the team, and the remaining number of fans. I know I have completely lost interest in going to anymore games. I think there is a lot to be said about telling the guys at the beginning of the year that the tools are there, to play with pride and believe in themselves. Just as they were doing exactly that, they blew the whole thing up to start over again. I think it just took a lot out of everybody. After the trades, they are about as exciting to watch as watching paint dry.

I really don't know how much time they do have.....they can't exist if they don't draw and it is obvious that the fans, with the exception of the "all prospects all the time" group is totally fed up. They can't wait four or five years to turn the corner.....they simply don't have that amount of time. I really think there will be serious talk of moving them, or even contraction of the league. At this point, I almost would not mind to see them go and be replaced with a AAA franchise. I mean, enough is enough. I can't imagine how anyone, the fans or the media, can be excited about the next few years. At the best they will be a .500 team, which is close to what they were when they started.

I have been flamed on this board constantly about not being a believer in "playing for tomorrow" all the time.... that's OK. We can all disagree. But, although I do like NH and Nutting, and I do think they want the best, I think this has really backfired on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:48 pm 
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I would disagree that the young players need a Larry Bowa type manager. You could ruin a guys confidence in a heart beat.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:53 pm 
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I don't think its the manager....I think Russell is a good one. I just don't think that he has anything to work with. Even if all these "prospects" work out, they have an average club, at best. In five years.

They've got to spend the money now, and get some Bays and Nadys, and some pitching. If they don't do it now, for today, there isn't going to be any tomorrows left. Forget the "maybe in five years the prospects will pan out" mentality....the future is now. Time is running out.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I don't think its the manager....I think Russell is a good one. I just don't think that he has anything to work with. Even if all these "prospects" work out, they have an average club, at best. In five years...


Then you need to go watch Tabata play. He looks like a young, smaller version of Dave Parker. Like Parker, like Bonds, like Ramerez... you take one look at him, even in BP, and you see a future star.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:13 pm 
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I've seen Tabata play. He is good.

But, as far as a "can't miss"? Who knows? And, there are eight more positions to fill on a daily basis.

But, I am sure we can trade Tabata in a couple of years for some more "prospects".


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:53 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
I don't think they've given up....I doubt that any "professional" athlete would ever do that. It runs against the grain.

I do think that NH drastically underestimated the effects the trades of Nady and Bay would have on this club. I really think that he was expecting them to still hover around .500, even with those guys gone.


I completely disagree. If he did think that, he should be fired now. I don't see how anyone even remotely knowledgeable about baseball could expect that trading a team's two best offensive producers in exchange for a bunch of unproven (albeit promising in some cases) prospects wouldn't have a totally detrimental impact on the season. I'm not saying the trades were bad, I'm saying that NH knew the team really wouldn't be as good after Bay and Nady left. He knew he was sacrificing the short term for the long term.


Steve1118 wrote:
I really don't know how much time they do have.....they can't exist if they don't draw and it is obvious that the fans, with the exception of the "all prospects all the time" group is totally fed up. They can't wait four or five years to turn the corner.....they simply don't have that amount of time. I really think there will be serious talk of moving them, or even contraction of the league. At this point, I almost would not mind to see them go and be replaced with a AAA franchise. I mean, enough is enough. I can't imagine how anyone, the fans or the media, can be excited about the next few years. At the best they will be a .500 team, which is close to what they were when they started.


Considering that everything I've read indicate the Pirates make money, they can exist indefinitely even with the poor attendance numbers. There is absolutely no talk about contracting any teams right in the majors right now. It's never going to happen, I don't know where you got this line of thinking from. When they turn it around, the fans will come back. That's one nice thing about fair weather fans.

Your characterization of the "all prospects all the time" group is so grossly oversimplified, I wonder if you understand at all the state in which the Pirates find themselves now. The organization is entirely devoid of talent, at both the major and minor league levels. The only way to rebuild on this without diving into an unaffordable free agent market is with prospects, believe it or not. Again, stop complaining that the owners won't spend money. They never will, and it's not necessary to spend money to win.

Steve1118 wrote:
I have been flamed on this board constantly about not being a believer in "playing for tomorrow" all the time.... that's OK. We can all disagree. But, although I do like NH and Nutting, and I do think they want the best, I think this has really backfired on them.


Considering that management almost certainly knew that the last couple months (and 2009) were going to be ugly, I'd say nothing has backfired on them. If the team is in this condition in three years, I'll agree. Check with me then. I'm not into small sample sizes.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:09 pm 
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"I'm saying that NH knew the team really wouldn't be as good after Bay and Nady left. He knew he was sacrificing the short term for the long term."

Oh, I do think they expected a drop off, but nothing like what has happened. You can't convince me they were prepared for this.

"When they turn it around, the fans will come back. That's one nice thing about fair weather fans."

OK. So, it's the fans that are being SOB's, and only "fair weather fans" because they are tired of sitting through this for sixteen years. Thanks for enlightening us. How unreasonable of them.


"Your characterization of the "all prospects all the time" group is so grossly oversimplified, I wonder if you understand at all the state in which the Pirates find themselves now."

The bottom line is to be competitive and win games, not necessarily to be a World Series contendor year in and year out. And yes, entertaining, too, as most folks go to the games to be entertained. If they want to be aggravated, they can go to work. The lack of pitching in the system was obvious, but the pitching does not appear to have improved dramatically and now there is no offensive depth, either. I don't think there were too many folks that would have complained had they maintained the course, at least this year, and finished third in the Division with a record around .500.

You talk as if Bay and Nady were old and decrepid, and had to take a dose of Geritol to make it to the ball park. That is removed from the truth. You also propose that they were "going to leave, anyhow". I don't think you can say that for certainty. Had the club shown them that they were commited to being competitive, they well have stayed when free agency came.

The day comes where you have got to make a stand. You can look at that a couple of different ways, to be sure, but at some point you've got to quit "promising the future" and either crap or get off of the pot. The bucs are at that point now.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:26 pm 
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This team was in no position to make that stand. Not once the pitching failed so miserably.

Once it was obvious, there was nothing more to do, than trade your commodities for value.

And, you won't know that value for a couple years, yet.

If I had to make an early projection based on what I've seen:

Ohlendorf makes it into the rotation. Becomes solid fixture once he's fully stretched out and strong.
Karstens makes it to the bullpen somewhere. At best, he's Josh Fogg.
Hansen. Flame out. Will never harness himself.
Moss. Solid OF. Eventually will be talking about him like you talk about Nady now.
LaRoche. A guy who will look good sabremetrically, but like his brother, will bury you before he starts "making" his stats. Lack of enthusiasm this year is puzzling at best, very worrysome at worst.
Tabata. Baby Bonds. No, too strong. Baby Parker.
Haven't seen or met anyone who's seen the A level pitcher.

If you get that much in return for Nady, Bay, you've done a hell of a job.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:20 pm 
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Maybe these moves wont work out, but these are the type of moves that Cleveland and Minnesota and Oakland have made...they're following a blueprint, they have a plan...


Hell what am I saying? There was new management and a new GM...We should have won the division...

cuz this team was sooooo loaded with talent and depth at every level...

Those shmucks should have been able to fix it overnight...Too bad Nutting sold his magic wand to buy Seven Springs!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:50 pm 
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nad69dan
You must really be happy with bobbleheads!

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:07 pm 
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Ryann wrote:
nad69dan
You must really be happy with bobbleheads!


Oh yeah, I got them all over my house along with my Grammy's...

I just see the reality in it...

"Rome wasn't built in a day!!!"

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:53 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
Ryann wrote:
nad69dan
You must really be happy with bobbleheads!


Oh yeah, I got them all over my house along with my Grammy's...

I just see the reality in it...

"Rome wasn't built in a day!!!"

Rome wasnt built in a day...BUT....a baseball team should be built in 16 years!

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:58 pm 
I'm not going to say the team has quit this season, but if you saw the game last night, they obviously quit during that game. No hustle what-so-ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:13 pm 
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What do you think about Wed. game?? Still not trying?

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:06 am 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08262/913100-63.stm

Dejean must be a fan of my work.

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 Post subject: Re: Effort
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:40 am 
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They win a game 15-8....So know it proves they are giving a great effort? Sorry but that means anytime they lose they arent. This team doesnt give a full effort and its even scary if they do since they once again are inthe cellar of the central.

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