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 Post subject: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:47 pm 
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... d=tab2pos2


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:36 pm 
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How people can read that article and then still blame the current regime for not having already reversed our fortunes is absolutely mind boggling. As I posted before....

Quote:
Listen, NH and FC basically inherited a 1988 Toyota Corolla with 150,000 miles on it. Dave Littlefield had busted the clutch, slashed the tires, busted out all the windows, pissed in the oil, and shat on the drivers seat. NH and FC weren't going to take this car and win the Daytona 500.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=823


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:41 pm 
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BBF wrote:
How people can read that article and then still blame the current regime for not having already reversed our fortunes is absolutely mind boggling. As I posted before....

Quote:
Listen, NH and FC basically inherited a 1988 Toyota Corolla with 150,000 miles on it. Dave Littlefield had busted the clutch, slashed the tires, busted out all the windows, pissed in the oil, and shat on the drivers seat. NH and FC weren't going to take this car and win the Daytona 500.

http://pittsburghsports.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=823


Robert Nutting (born March 29, 1962 in Wheeling, West Virginia) is the Chairman of the Board and majority owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball team. Nutting became the 6th majority owner in Pirates history, when he replaced Kevin McClatchy on January 12, 2007. Prior to becoming owner, Nutting served as the Pirates Chairman of the Board beginning in 2003[1].

Fans of the Pirates have strongly criticized Nutting and McClatchy for failing to increase the team's payroll and make changes in the front office despite years of failure and increased income from baseball's television contracts and revenue-sharing system. The Pirates have suffered 16 straight losing seasons through 2008. Nutting made his first major move on September 7, 2007 when he fired general manager Dave Littlefield. He hired Frank Coonelly to take over for Kevin McClatchy as Team President, and allowed him to choose the new general manager, Neal Huntington.

Nutting and his family originally joined the Pirates ownership group in 1996. Nutting's father G. Ogden Nutting and his brother William Nutting also serve on the Pirates board of directors. Nutting and his family own Ogden Newspapers Inc. and Seven Springs Mountain Resort in Pennsylvania.

The Nuttings were ranked among the worst MLB owners by Sports Illustrated according to the Tribune Review newspaper http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 19657.html

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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:54 pm 
You guys are both right. Nutting WAS a part of this organization since 96, and apparently very influential for the past five years or so, so you can't act like he had NOTHING to do with what went on.

But, NH and Coonelly -- two very key members of the front office -- were NOT part of the problem in the past, so you can't blame them for past faults of the franchise.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
You guys are both right. Nutting WAS a part of this organization since 96, and apparently very influential for the past five years or so, so you can't act like he had NOTHING to do with what went on.

But, NH and Coonelly -- two very key members of the front office -- were NOT part of the problem in the past, so you can't blame them for past faults of the franchise.


Elmer, you can't prove that Nutting has been "influential" for the last 5 years. He just took over responsibility for the team at the beginning of 2007, carefully observed the team and subsequently cleaned house after the season. THAT tells me he is now influential to the team. That's the proof in the pudding, man, talking about pudding is making me crave a smooth chocol... ohhh sorry, back on topic here.

If Nutting was willing to shell out 10 Million to Morris, I believe he will be willing to pay out money to FA's that NH and FC deem worthy of a roster spot. But like the Orson Wells says, "we will drink no wine until its time"


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:55 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer wrote:
You guys are both right. Nutting WAS a part of this organization since 96, and apparently very influential for the past five years or so, so you can't act like he had NOTHING to do with what went on.

But, NH and Coonelly -- two very key members of the front office -- were NOT part of the problem in the past, so you can't blame them for past faults of the franchise.


Elmer, you can't prove that Nutting has been "influential" for the last 5 years. He just took over responsibility for the team at the beginning of 2007, carefully observed the team and subsequently cleaned house after the season. THAT tells me he is now influential to the team. That's the proof in the pudding, man, talking about pudding is making me crave a smooth chocol... ohhh sorry, back on topic here.

If Nutting was willing to shell out 10 Million to Morris, I believe he will be willing to pay out money to FA's that NH and FC deem worthy of a roster spot. But like the Orson Wells says, "we will drink no wine until its time"


No, I can't "prove" it, but you can't prove he didn't have influence. I've also read plenty of reports that suggest he had increasing say as the years went on. Even if he didn't, he was part of the ownership group and had a vote on the board, so to say that he had no influence isn't true.

I like some what he's done since he's 100% in charge. My point is, if you're going to praise where it is deserved -- and it is deserved in a lot of instances -- you have to also criticize where it is deserved.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:33 am 
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Elmer wrote:
I've also read plenty of reports that suggest he had increasing say as the years went on.


I've not read anything to that effect (aside from the repetitive, baseless ramblings of a certain member here). Would you kindly provide some links to (at least some of) these reports.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:06 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I've also read plenty of reports that suggest he had increasing say as the years went on.


I've not read anything to that effect (aside from the repetitive, baseless ramblings of a certain member here). Would you kindly provide some links to (at least some of) these reports.


just because he was on the board doesnt make him fully accountable...He's said he wasn't a baseball guy...If you got McClatchy (who was the main man in charge) and the Boni-field monster telling you how great things are and all this sunshine you are going to believe them, because of their positions...

Look at what he has done since Jan. 2007...

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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:26 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I've also read plenty of reports that suggest he had increasing say as the years went on.


I've not read anything to that effect (aside from the repetitive, baseless ramblings of a certain member here). Would you kindly provide some links to (at least some of) these reports.


just because he was on the board doesnt make him fully accountable...He's said he wasn't a baseball guy...If you got McClatchy (who was the main man in charge) and the Boni-field monster telling you how great things are and all this sunshine you are going to believe them, because of their positions...

Look at what he has done since Jan. 2007...


I never said he was "fully accountable" ... I said he shares part of the blame. If he had a vote, he's partially accountable. If he was listening to what McClatch said without questioning it simply because of their positions, he was a poor board member. He's partially accountable.

Look at what he's done since 2007? Continue to lose.

He's made some nice moves that COULD turn that around, but to praise him yet would be premature. Winning is the only thing that matters. That's the currency of baseball.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:37 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I never said he was "fully accountable" ... I said he shares part of the blame. If he had a vote, he's partially accountable. If he was listening to what McClatch said without questioning it simply because of their positions, he was a poor board member. He's partially accountable.

Look at what he's done since 2007? Continue to lose.

He's made some nice moves that COULD turn that around, but to praise him yet would be premature. Winning is the only thing that matters. That's the currency of baseball.


How the hell was he to turn around an entire organization that had gone to hell, in one season?...I'd like to hear an answer....anyone?

Winning now for the sake of breaking some silly number of losing seasons is plain stupid...

I'd understand that logic if this team was close to contending, or was one or two players away from it...

but when you had John Van Benschoten, Bryan Bullington, and Yoslan Herrera in the minors as your backup plans incase of injury...you're screwed...

When you found out how valuable your .270 career hitting SS was to you when he was gone for a month and your top prospect SS came up and crapped his pants...you're screwed

When your 2 top starting pitchers (who were probably overused to try to save the previous manager's job) stink it up and get hurt and have to go and rely on the above named pitchers...you're screwed

When your draft constantly is on the cheap and pass on big time, legit prospects...you're screwed


Nutting and these guys have been given a shitty run down house and have been asked to fix it up and turn it around so they can run with the Jones'...You cant do it overnight...

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For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:40 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
I never said he was "fully accountable" ... I said he shares part of the blame. If he had a vote, he's partially accountable. If he was listening to what McClatch said without questioning it simply because of their positions, he was a poor board member. He's partially accountable.

Look at what he's done since 2007? Continue to lose.

He's made some nice moves that COULD turn that around, but to praise him yet would be premature. Winning is the only thing that matters. That's the currency of baseball.


So its fine to rip Nutting and Huntington and Coonelly for the job they've done so far, because the steps they are making to turn this organization into a winner isn't fast enough and hasn't resulted in direct winning yet...

I guess when you plant new grass, you expect the seed to grow 3 inches overnight and have it ready to mow, in a few days?

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:02 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
I've also read plenty of reports that suggest he had increasing say as the years went on.


I've not read anything to that effect (aside from the repetitive, baseless ramblings of a certain member here). Would you kindly provide some links to (at least some of) these reports.



Sure

From May 2005:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05121/497197-63.stm


From June 2006
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06176/701101-194.stm
"The interview with Nutting was desired because, contrary to popular belief, he is the man making the major business decision for the organization. McClatchy is the CEO and public face of the team, but not the major decision-maker."

Rossi in the Trib, July 2006
Nuttings are team's "majority owners"
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 61639.html

Starkey in the Trib, July 2006
"Certainly, ownership has done its part to exacerbate the mess. Have you ever met the Nutting family, Bud? We haven't. They're the PRIMARY INVESTORS in this franchise"
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 61191.html

Oct. 2006 - Rossi says Nutting is team's chairman.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 73551.html
Bob Nutting, the chairman of the club's board of directors, said he supports McClatchy and will continue to be very careful "not to create any appearance of conflict."

This article from October 2006
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06281/728239-194.stm
says "Chairman of the board Bob Nutting, the man who controls the club's financial decisions". If he was making the financial decisions in October 2006, he signed off on some pretty bad contracts.

This article from January 2007 explains how Nutting had some power even while McClatch was there
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07013/753570-194.stm


Before you start slamming Smizik, I don't like him either. I don't necessarily agree with his opinion. But he is a responsible reporter. I don't know of any example where he got a fact wrong in forming is asinine opinions.

Also, Forbes Magazine, in this April 2007 article, reports that the Nuttings "gradually bought out minority stakes and built its interest to more than 50%"
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07m ... 39965.html

There are some articles about Nutting's dad, G. Ogten Nutting, too. But this post is about Bob, so I'll leave that be.

March 2004
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04084/290582-194.stm


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:03 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
I guess when you plant new grass, you expect the seed to grow 3 inches overnight and have it ready to mow, in a few days?


No. But I don't think you praise your beautiful lawn before it has grown at all. When it grows in and is beautiful, THEN you praise it. Until the grass grows, it's just mud.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
I guess when you plant new grass, you expect the seed to grow 3 inches overnight and have it ready to mow, in a few days?


No. But I don't think you praise your beautiful lawn before it has grown at all. When it grows in and is beautiful, THEN you praise it. Until the grass grows, it's just mud.


No, but you praise the brand of seeds, the fertilizer you've you use, the soil, the PH levels in the soil, the straw to keep out the crows, and oh and you need to continue to water it to get it to grow...

That shows the work and effort that pays off when the grass does grow!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:49 pm 
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wow. using opinion pieces from Rossi and Starkey to make that point.

Tough sell.

Like trying to use the Daily Kos to get the low down on Sarah Palin.

ZM

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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:51 pm 
ZelieMike wrote:
wow. using opinion pieces from Rossi and Starkey to make that point.

Tough sell.

Like trying to use the Daily Kos to get the low down on Sarah Palin.

ZM


First, the articles from Rossi were from when he was the Pirates beat writer for the Trib. Not opinion pieces.

For the Smizik, Starkey pieces, I am referring to the facts on which they base their opinions. (Again, I don't buy most of the opinions of either. It's the facts on which they base these).

Here's a Dejan article from April 2007 that calls Nutting the Principal owner
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07111/779916-63.stm

And what about the Forbes Magazine article?


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:56 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
wow. using opinion pieces from Rossi and Starkey to make that point.

Tough sell.

Like trying to use the Daily Kos to get the low down on Sarah Palin.

ZM


First, the articles from Rossi were from when he was the Pirates beat writer for the Trib. Not opinion pieces.

For the Smizik, Starkey pieces, I am referring to the facts on which they base their opinions. (Again, I don't buy most of the opinions of either. It's the facts on which they base these).

Here's a Dejan article from April 2007 that calls Nutting the Principal owner
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07111/779916-63.stm

And what about the Forbes Magazine article?


Elmer,
I don't know exactly what point is being made. All of those articles are from 2006 which led to his taking more of an interest in 2007. I thought everyone knew that.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
wow. using opinion pieces from Rossi and Starkey to make that point.

Tough sell.

Like trying to use the Daily Kos to get the low down on Sarah Palin.

ZM


First, the articles from Rossi were from when he was the Pirates beat writer for the Trib. Not opinion pieces.

For the Smizik, Starkey pieces, I am referring to the facts on which they base their opinions. (Again, I don't buy most of the opinions of either. It's the facts on which they base these).

Here's a Dejan article from April 2007 that calls Nutting the Principal owner
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07111/779916-63.stm

And what about the Forbes Magazine article?


Your article from Dejan kinda negates the Forbes article...

Quote:
"The information reported in Forbes is simply inaccurate," principal owner Bob Nutting said yesterday.

Neither Nutting nor CEO Kevin McClatchy has divulged how much profit the team made while spending $43.4 million on player payroll last season -- third lowest in Major League Baseball -- but they have said it was not excessive.

"We are operating the Pirates responsibly from a solid business and baseball foundation in order to consistently compete on the field and maintain the long-term viability of the franchise," Nutting said.



Quote:
David Samson, president of the Marlins, described the Forbes numbers to The Associated Press as "pure fantasy," a view that is shared almost universally in baseball, mostly because the magazine is granted no access to teams' financial information. Major League Baseball strongly discourages all teams from opening their books.

The Pirates say they never were contacted by Forbes.


All your articles you posted showed was the Nutting Family bought up more shares, had more power, then took over fully by letting McClatchy go...
Then add in the money to the Latin Academy, remodeling of Bradenton, Neal and Frank, and the extra money spent on Latin Prospects and the draft...

To sum it up from what I've read...They bought up shares to have more say on matters, then told McClatchy he's not needed anymore, then fired Littlefield for being an idiot, and brought in guys who seemed to have good backgrounds, knowledge of the game, and an actual plan to turn this franchise around...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:57 pm 
Piratefan13 wrote:
Elmer wrote:
ZelieMike wrote:
wow. using opinion pieces from Rossi and Starkey to make that point.

Tough sell.

Like trying to use the Daily Kos to get the low down on Sarah Palin.

ZM


First, the articles from Rossi were from when he was the Pirates beat writer for the Trib. Not opinion pieces.

For the Smizik, Starkey pieces, I am referring to the facts on which they base their opinions. (Again, I don't buy most of the opinions of either. It's the facts on which they base these).

Here's a Dejan article from April 2007 that calls Nutting the Principal owner
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07111/779916-63.stm

And what about the Forbes Magazine article?


Elmer,
I don't know exactly what point is being made. All of those articles are from 2006 which led to his taking more of an interest in 2007. I thought everyone knew that.


Some of the articles from 06 already identify him as principal owner.

Also, other articles show that he had an ownership interest that, as these articles point out, gradually grew since 1996. As ownership grows, so does accountability.

Many times I've heard here that "this is his first year in charge." Other times, I've heard suggestions that he had no influence until he was the majority owner, which is simply untrue because he sat on the board so, therefore, he had a vote.

If he had an increasingly growing stake in the franchise, his responsibility for the business results also grew. My point is, you can't absolve him totally for the losses if he was a part of the ownership group.

He had power. If he chose not to use the power he had as an OWNER to adjust bad decisions, that is almost as making bad decisions himself.

He is in no way 100% responsible for the team's struggles. But to act like he's 0% at fault not viewing things accurately.


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 Post subject: Re: Amusing article
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:00 pm 
nad69dan wrote:
To sum it up from what I've read...They bought up shares to have more say on matters, then told McClatchy he's not needed anymore, then fired Littlefield for being an idiot, and brought in guys who seemed to have good backgrounds, knowledge of the game, and an actual plan to turn this franchise around...


I agree with that for the most part. They deserve credit for a lot of the changes they've made. But I don't think you can say they don't deserve some of the blame for the earlier problems. They were majority owners before McClatchy was booted. Even when they were minority owners, they were voting members of the board of directors. Those are positions that bring accountability with them.


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