Proud fans of a 128-year old tradition

It is currently Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:28 am

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:15 am 
Willton wrote:
I don't watch the team. In case you didn't notice, I live in Jersey City, New Jersey -- Pirates baseball is not exactly a priority for the television networks around here. I also don't have a whole lot of desire to watch a team that I know is this bad, so I don't seek them out, and I imagine I'm a more joyful person as a result. I check box scores and stat sheets to keep up with the team, but I don't actively watch the games.


That explains a lot.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:48 am
Posts: 391
Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I don't watch the team. In case you didn't notice, I live in Jersey City, New Jersey -- Pirates baseball is not exactly a priority for the television networks around here. I also don't have a whole lot of desire to watch a team that I know is this bad, so I don't seek them out, and I imagine I'm a more joyful person as a result. I check box scores and stat sheets to keep up with the team, but I don't actively watch the games. (My opinion on whether the players are trying or not comes from second-hand information, like the opinions of others on this board who are willing to describe what they see and not make conclusory allegations.)


Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. You don't watch the team, yet you feel you can debate me on the teams efforts based on the opinions of the team you get from others. I see.

My problem is THIS...TEAM...HAS...QUIT. How am I supposed to have any faith that things are going to be different in a few seasons when many of the players on the team now who'll be here when supposedly the team will contenders can't get it done now? I'm supposed to get behind guys like Andy LaRoche and Nate McLouth, for example, in the future when a scout calls out LaRoche for lollygagging and McLouth has like an RBI and a half since the All Star Break?

It would be one thing if the team was 24 games under and playing competitve ball losing 5-4 or 3-2 every night. When you're getting blown out 9-3 or giving up 10 runs in an inning or can't hit a September callup from the All-Star Factory that is the Astros farm system, or just plain looking pitiful every night, then maybe it makes you question whether they have the guys who have the intangiables it takes to ever be a winner.

I live out here in Robinson 15 minutes from the stadium. I can turn on Fox Sports every night and watch the Pirates. I'd say your credibility isn't the best.

_________________
"What other businesses do you expect to lose money for your entertainment?"-- UPPMB


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:43 am 
omgardd wrote:
Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I don't watch the team. In case you didn't notice, I live in Jersey City, New Jersey -- Pirates baseball is not exactly a priority for the television networks around here. I also don't have a whole lot of desire to watch a team that I know is this bad, so I don't seek them out, and I imagine I'm a more joyful person as a result. I check box scores and stat sheets to keep up with the team, but I don't actively watch the games. (My opinion on whether the players are trying or not comes from second-hand information, like the opinions of others on this board who are willing to describe what they see and not make conclusory allegations.)


Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. You don't watch the team, yet you feel you can debate me on the teams efforts based on the opinions of the team you get from others. I see.

My problem is THIS...TEAM...HAS...QUIT. How am I supposed to have any faith that things are going to be different in a few seasons when many of the players on the team now who'll be here when supposedly the team will contenders can't get it done now? I'm supposed to get behind guys like Andy LaRoche and Nate McLouth, for example, in the future when a scout calls out LaRoche for lollygagging and McLouth has like an RBI and a half since the All Star Break?

It would be one thing if the team was 24 games under and playing competitve ball losing 5-4 or 3-2 every night. When you're getting blown out 9-3 or giving up 10 runs in an inning or can't hit a September callup from the All-Star Factory that is the Astros farm system, or just plain looking pitiful every night, then maybe it makes you question whether they have the guys who have the intangiables it takes to ever be a winner.

I live out here in Robinson 15 minutes from the stadium. I can turn on Fox Sports every night and watch the Pirates. I'd say your credibility isn't the best.


Omgarrd you couldn't be more right about the credibility here.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:52 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
omgardd wrote:
Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. You don't watch the team, yet you feel you can debate me on the teams efforts based on the opinions of the team you get from others. I see.

Well, given that you are not actually using anything you've seen to hold up your point, then yes, I think I am quite capable of debating these things with you.

The opinions I take into account are no worse than ones coming from the likes of you. I just find that guys like Bucfan, BBF, and Sisyphus are far more believable than you, mainly because they actually describe what they see and take a more reasoned approach.

omgardd wrote:
My problem is THIS...TEAM...HAS...QUIT. How am I supposed to have any faith that things are going to be different in a few seasons when many of the players on the team now who'll be here when supposedly the team will contenders can't get it done now? I'm supposed to get behind guys like Andy LaRoche and Nate McLouth, for example, in the future when a scout calls out LaRoche for lollygagging and McLouth has like an RBI and a half since the All Star Break?

Where is your evidence that the team has quit, as opposed to just being bad? You point to NOTHING that says that this team has quit. When someone challenges you to actually put forth some evidence, all you do is stomp your feet and start shouting. If you're so damn sure that the team has quit, give us some evidence that proves your point: describe what you see or post some video that shows this laziness. The "I saw it!" claim does not hold any water unless you can actually explain in detail what you saw or are seeing.

Young players typically improve over time. They don't just step on a field and magically rise to their greatest potential. If you can't understand that, then I'm not suprised that you are unable to believe that things will get better. You clearly lack vision.

omgardd wrote:
It would be one thing if the team was 24 games under and playing competitve ball losing 5-4 or 3-2 every night. When you're getting blown out 9-3 or giving up 10 runs in an inning or can't hit a September callup from the All-Star Factory that is the Astros farm system, or just plain looking pitiful every night, then maybe it makes you question whether they have the guys who have the intangiables it takes to ever be a winner.

Again, that has everything to do with their ability to win and nothing to do with their desire to win. If you can show me that these players have the ability to avoid getting blown out like they did Tuesday, by all means show us.

omgardd wrote:
I live out here in Robinson 15 minutes from the stadium. I can turn on Fox Sports every night and watch the Pirates. I'd say your credibility isn't the best.

Bully for you. What astounds me is that with this wonderful ability to watch the Pirates every night, you still are unable to actually describe what you see on the field in order to give credence to your position that the Bucs have quit. All you are doing is making an assumption based upon the box scores. Guess what? I can do that just as easily as you can from 400 miles away; I choose not to because it lacks an intelligent approach. Your proximity to PNC Park is providing you with nothing special in making these assumptions.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:45 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Bowie, Md
I DO watch almost every night. The team hasn't quit, to assume that shows a lack of understanding to September baseball. After 16 years of losing, I would assume that almost every Pirate fan would understand what is going on right now. Its as simple as this;

1. The Pirates are using a different lineup everyday, giving players an opportunity to make a case for themselves for next year, while still trying to win the game(hence the mix of veterans in the lineup).

2. The young Pirates do not match up against these other teams, its evident by the fact that even when they aquire a lead like last night, they are unable to sustain the lead .

3. The other teams we are playing are already doing so in a playoff type atmosphere, the Astros MUST WIN every game to have an outside chance at the Wild Card.

4. How would you explain McLouth diving for a ball, getting mashed in the eye, and still coming back to play? Thats quiting? How about Morgan, trying so hard that he does dumb things.

Calling them quitters is unfair and unfounded.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:22 pm 
Whether the team has quit or not is up for debate (personally, I just think they're a bad tea). However, I think it's clear you are not qualified to argue it because, by your own admission, you don't watch the games.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:50 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:41 pm
Posts: 843
Elmer wrote:
Whether the team has quit or not is up for debate (personally, I just think they're a bad tea). However, I think it's clear you are not qualified to argue it because, by your own admission, you don't watch the games.


Willton wasn't necessarily saying that the team wasn't quitting. He was saying that you can't determine whether or not a team had quit simply based on whether it was losing. That's a point that someone in Africa could make.

And I'll say that every time Omgardd replies and simply shouts his assertion that the team has quit without actually describing any evidence, Willton's point looks a lot better.

Omgardd, for the mindless flocks that watch ESPN and love guys like Stephen A. Smith, who just shout as loud as they can and hope someone listens, your approach would be great. But it's been my experience that the people on this board are more of a thinking bunch. You'll excuse us if we don't swallow your bull, just because you say so.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:57 pm 
jaybee24 wrote:
Elmer wrote:
Whether the team has quit or not is up for debate (personally, I just think they're a bad tea). However, I think it's clear you are not qualified to argue it because, by your own admission, you don't watch the games.


Willton wasn't necessarily saying that the team wasn't quitting. He was saying that you can't determine whether or not a team had quit simply based on whether it was losing. That's a point that someone in Africa could make.

And I'll say that every time Omgardd replies and simply shouts his assertion that the team has quit without actually describing any evidence, Willton's point looks a lot better.

Omgardd, for the mindless flocks that watch ESPN and love guys like Stephen A. Smith, who just shout as loud as they can and hope someone listens, your approach would be great. But it's been my experience that the people on this board are more of a thinking bunch. You'll excuse us if we don't swallow your bull, just because you say so.


I agree that you can't say a team is quitty simply because its is losing. You have to watch and observe what's going on. Wilton has admitted he doesn't watch, so I don't believe he's in a position to comment on that.

And for the record, I agree you need to provide evidence to say whether a team is quitting or not.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Elmer wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
Willton wasn't necessarily saying that the team wasn't quitting. He was saying that you can't determine whether or not a team had quit simply based on whether it was losing. That's a point that someone in Africa could make.

And I'll say that every time Omgardd replies and simply shouts his assertion that the team has quit without actually describing any evidence, Willton's point looks a lot better.

Omgardd, for the mindless flocks that watch ESPN and love guys like Stephen A. Smith, who just shout as loud as they can and hope someone listens, your approach would be great. But it's been my experience that the people on this board are more of a thinking bunch. You'll excuse us if we don't swallow your bull, just because you say so.


I agree that you can't say a team is quitty simply because its is losing. You have to watch and observe what's going on. Wilton has admitted he doesn't watch, so I don't believe he's in a position to comment on that.

And for the record, I agree you need to provide evidence to say whether a team is quitting or not.

I think it's fair to presume that, in the absence of evidence weighing in either direction, members of a professional baseball team are going to perform their duties on the field competitively. After all, that's what they are getting paid to do. If someone is going to claim that a team is quitting, that person is going to need some pretty clear and convincing evidence (to borrow a term from legal parlance) to get over that presumption.

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:43 pm 
Willton wrote:
Elmer wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
Willton wasn't necessarily saying that the team wasn't quitting. He was saying that you can't determine whether or not a team had quit simply based on whether it was losing. That's a point that someone in Africa could make.

And I'll say that every time Omgardd replies and simply shouts his assertion that the team has quit without actually describing any evidence, Willton's point looks a lot better.

Omgardd, for the mindless flocks that watch ESPN and love guys like Stephen A. Smith, who just shout as loud as they can and hope someone listens, your approach would be great. But it's been my experience that the people on this board are more of a thinking bunch. You'll excuse us if we don't swallow your bull, just because you say so.


I agree that you can't say a team is quitty simply because its is losing. You have to watch and observe what's going on. Wilton has admitted he doesn't watch, so I don't believe he's in a position to comment on that.

And for the record, I agree you need to provide evidence to say whether a team is quitting or not.

I think it's fair to presume that, in the absence of evidence weighing in either direction, members of a professional baseball team are going to perform their duties on the field competitively. After all, that's what they are getting paid to do. If someone is going to claim that a team is quitting, that person is going to need some pretty clear and convincing evidence (to borrow a term from legal parlance) to get over that presumption.


Wow. So you don't think any baseball players get lazy with their guaranteed contracts and stop going all out, simply because they are paid professionals?

Effort is something that can only be judged by watching, not by reading a box score. You've already said you don't watch the Pirates, so you're not in a position to argue one way or the other. Also, you've proven time and again that you are completely blind to all aspects of baseball that aren't statistical; this is one of those aspects, so it's not even worth discussing with you.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:01 pm
Posts: 7308
In all this bitching at Wilton about not watching the Pirates...No one has still answered his question...

What proof do you have these guys dogging it?

Omgardd, if you live 15 minutes away, why dont you wait after a game and ask Nate McLouth (black eye and all), or Jack Wilson (broken finger and wanting to pinch hit), or Freddy Sanchez (bum shoulder and played all year through the pain)? See what response you'd get from them...

Hell call up Stan Savran on Sportsbeat, and ask him if he thinks they are dogging it...

_________________
I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5558
Location: Pittsburgh
omgardd wrote:
Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
I don't watch the team. In case you didn't notice, I live in Jersey City, New Jersey -- Pirates baseball is not exactly a priority for the television networks around here. I also don't have a whole lot of desire to watch a team that I know is this bad, so I don't seek them out, and I imagine I'm a more joyful person as a result. I check box scores and stat sheets to keep up with the team, but I don't actively watch the games. (My opinion on whether the players are trying or not comes from second-hand information, like the opinions of others on this board who are willing to describe what they see and not make conclusory allegations.)


Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. You don't watch the team, yet you feel you can debate me on the teams efforts based on the opinions of the team you get from others. I see.

My problem is THIS...TEAM...HAS...QUIT.

And you are basing this opinion on what? Exactly what have you seen that would indicate that this team has quit?

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5558
Location: Pittsburgh
Elmer wrote:
Whether the team has quit or not is up for debate

Not to anyone who has been watching it.

Quote:
(personally, I just think they're a bad tea).

You are correct.

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:48 am
Posts: 391
sisyphus wrote:
And you are basing this opinion on what? Exactly what have you seen that would indicate that this team has quit?



Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.

But the fact is, this team is not full of rookies and prospects right now, they should be playing better. Even Andy LaRoche and Moss have spent most of this season and a chunk of last season in the majors. Other than that the rest of our team is comprised of guys who have been in the majors for at least 2 or 3 years minimum.
Doumit, Sanchez, Wilson, Michaels, Mienkiewicz, Adam LaRoche, McLouth, Snell, Gorzo, Duke, Maholm, Gomez, Rivas, Grabow, Capps, etc.

These aren't rookies, but they're not playing like major league players.
If this team was as young as the Florida Marlins and currently 25 games under, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. I agree with the fact that there is a steep learning curve in baseball, but this isn't a team of 22 year olds. They should be playing better.

_________________
"What other businesses do you expect to lose money for your entertainment?"-- UPPMB


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:00 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm
Posts: 385
I dont have any idea if the players have quit, but ownership quit on them. If you were a player and saw your better players traded away for prospects, you would not be happy. The players may not quit, but they are most likely going through the motions. I'm not saying trading the players was the wrong thing to do, but in doing so they gave up and sent the message to the team that by all accounts the season was over

_________________
Image


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:18 pm
Posts: 5060
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
omgardd wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
And you are basing this opinion on what? Exactly what have you seen that would indicate that this team has quit?


Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.

Thanks, that's all I needed to hear. You don't have any evidence, yet you feel you can debate me on the team's efforts based on the assumptions you make from reading box scores. I see.

Wow, reading that back, that sounds familiar. Where have I heard that before?
omgardd wrote:
Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. You don't watch the team, yet you feel you can debate me on the teams efforts based on the opinions of the team you get from others. I see.

viewtopic.php?p=10564#p10564

I said Good Day!

_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."
~H. L. Mencken


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:00 pm 
Willton wrote:
omgardd wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
And you are basing this opinion on what? Exactly what have you seen that would indicate that this team has quit?


Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.

Thanks, that's all I needed to hear. You don't have any evidence, yet you feel you can debate me on the team's efforts based on the assumptions you make from reading box scores. I see.

Wow, reading that back, that sounds familiar. Where have I heard that before?
omgardd wrote:
Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. You don't watch the team, yet you feel you can debate me on the teams efforts based on the opinions of the team you get from others. I see.

viewtopic.php?p=10564#p10564

I said Good Day!


Strawman. He said the team doesn't capture his attention. He didn't say he only reads box scores.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:52 pm
Posts: 5558
Location: Pittsburgh
omgardd wrote:
sisyphus wrote:
And you are basing this opinion on what? Exactly what have you seen that would indicate that this team has quit?



Ok, since I can't very well go to youtube and provide you evidence of say, Andy LaRoche not running out a ground ball, and this team doesn't exactly capture my attention over the past month and a half enough to scrutinize every small detail that you're asking for, I'll settle and call it an assumption, sue me.

I'd point out that it's ridiculous to claim that a team has quit because one guy failed to run out a grounder, but the funniest thing you said was that you aren't watching the team closely after criticizing somebody else for the exact same thing.

Quote:
But the fact is, this team is not full of rookies and prospects right now, they should be playing better.

No, the fact is that this team is full of rookies, has beens, and never was-es, and it stinks.

Quote:
Even Andy LaRoche and Moss have spent most of this season and a chunk of last season in the majors.

Moss is a ROOKIE. His entire ML experience before coming to the Pirates consists of one September call up to watch the Red Sox finish last season and 59 days on their major league roster this year, which he spent watching them play. He has half a season's worth of plate appearances in his career, and he's only 24 years old.

LaRoche is a ROOKIE. He opened this season on the disabled list, didn't make an appearance for the Dodgers until June 11, and was back in the minors before the trade. He spent May and September in LA. He has half a season's worth of plate appearance in his career, and he's only 24 years old.

So now we've established that you don't really follow the team that you are criticizing all that closely, and that you are completely ignorant as to the experience of two players. But that's okay, you don't need the facts when you can just make stuff up.

Quote:
Other than that the rest of our team is comprised of guys who have been in the majors for at least 2 or 3 years minimum.
Doumit, Sanchez, Wilson, Michaels, Mienkiewicz, Adam LaRoche, McLouth, Snell, Gorzo, Duke, Maholm, Gomez, Rivas, Grabow, Capps, etc.

These aren't rookies, but they're not playing like major league players.

That would be because a good many of them are not quality major league players. You are equating experience with talent.

Quote:
If this team was as young as the Florida Marlins and currently 25 games under, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. I agree with the fact that there is a steep learning curve in baseball, but this isn't a team of 22 year olds. They should be playing better.

So if they would just field a team of 40 year olds, they'll win it all, eh?

_________________
"Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:47 pm 
Offline
 Profile

Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 11:28 pm
Posts: 2170
This team just plain sucks. You can just keep on talking up about the future and blah blah blah but a bunch of 24 year old experienced rookies who arent living up to the potential wont help this team win. 6 in a row isnt that just lovely?

_________________
0 straight losing seasons


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Wow, you guys are right! Future's so bright....
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:39 am 
Offline
User avatar
 Profile

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:48 am
Posts: 391
Dunces. When did I ever say that I never really followed the team or never really followed them that closely?

The fact is I watched them all year. I think we can all agree they were a fun team to watch until July. I watched them closely when they acquired the new players, I watched them into their August slump.

They've gone 3-17 in their past 20, so between that and the fact that you can find a football game of some form on most nights of the week now, I'm not exactly compelled to watch Pirates baseball anymore this season. sorry but I gave up. Just like they did. :lol:
Sorry to get you Marys all worked up.

_________________
"What other businesses do you expect to lose money for your entertainment?"-- UPPMB


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Dr. Phibes, Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits