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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:42 am 
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nad69dan wrote:
8 players for 3, all of whom were gone after next season...And those 8 guys are locked up for a long time


Yeah I feel great that we have Tony McKnight, Ryan Vogelsong, Ron Wright, Armando Rios, and Bobby Hill locked up for a long time!!!!!!!

And to answer some of the above comments: Hey at least they were exciting and fun to watch, as I got to see down here in the Astros sweep in July. Now, we have a lifeless bunch of losers who roll over and play dead whenever they take the field.

And just tonight, the Astros sports talk news guy just said, "And the Astros take on the Triple A Pirates tonight." You could hear the smirk in his voice.

I loved the end of 1998 so much, and I am so enjoying it again!


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:16 am 
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omgardd wrote:
I never said anything about wishing we never traded Nady, Bay and Marte, I think if guys like Tabata, A. McCutchen, Morris, and even Alvarez work out here, we might have something.... in 5 years.

That said I'm frustrated with THIS team, the here and now 2008 and probably what will be the 2009 Pirates. I didn't expect two trades to turn us into the Washington Nationals in a matter of a week, lets face it they suck. They're getting blown out 5 nights out of 7, they might win once and week and lose a close game the other day of the week, and nobody, nobody can tell me that the players haven't quit on the season.

I understand that we're not going to have a chance at being a playoff team until maybe 2010 or 2011, but I can't take a time machine to 2011 and watch the Pirates compete, and being a Pittsburgher, unfortunately I have to watch them next season, so why don't one of you homers who blast me for having the nerve to question the Pirates heart give me a reason to be optimistic about the 2009 Pirates because I see none.

If that's the case, then don't watch. Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch Bucco baseball. If it's so damn depressing, turn off the television and do something else. The city of Pittsburgh has a lot of culture to explore, and you could probably benefit from doing something other than watching sports 24/7. I imagine you'll be a happier person, and then you'll stop making such inane posts on this board.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:39 am 
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Thanks. Maybe since I live here in Pittsburgh and not in Jersey City, I should take my opinions to the Mets message board where someone can tell me all about the Mets season, and I'll check the Mets boxscores from time to time and I should be good to go right?
All the information I should need to go on a message board act like I know what I'm talking about in regard to Met baseball, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:39 pm 
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Some of these guys think that we, the fans, are the SOB's because we would like a competitive team on the field, even while we develop prospects.

For them, it either win the World Series, or nothing. "Our goal is not to play .500 ball" is the mantra. So, I guess, under that reasoning, hypothetically, if we are solidly in third place next year, say 10 or 12 games out, we should trade the rest of the veterans we do have for some more "prospects". After all, how dare the fans be satisfied with a competitive team.

Admit it or not, with Bay and Nady in the lineup this team was fun to watch, and you knew that even if the club was behind late there was a possibility of a come from behind win. This past series is the underline of the entire deal.....in the beginning half of the year the buccos owned the Astros. They made their trades, and we made ours. It is easy to see how each one made out.

I love the buccos, but this "playing for next year" has gone on for far too long. And, I really don't think we are bad fans because we are tired of it. I have watched bucco baseball for forty plus years now, and resent being told to stay home because I am getting tired of the same old company line.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Some of these guys think that we, the fans, are the SOB's because we would like a competitive team on the field, even while we develop prospects.

For them, it either win the World Series, or nothing. "Our goal is not to play .500 ball" is the mantra. So, I guess, under that reasoning, hypothetically, if we are solidly in third place next year, say 10 or 12 games out, we should trade the rest of the veterans we do have for some more "prospects". After all, how dare the fans be satisfied with a competitive team.

Admit it or not, with Bay and Nady in the lineup this team was fun to watch, and you knew that even if the club was behind late there was a possibility of a come from behind win. This past series is the underline of the entire deal.....in the beginning half of the year the buccos owned the Astros. They made their trades, and we made ours. It is easy to see how each one made out.

I love the buccos, but this "playing for next year" has gone on for far too long. And, I really don't think we are bad fans because we are tired of it. I have watched bucco baseball for forty plus years now, and resent being told to stay home because I am getting tired of the same old company line.


Big Picture, Steve, your not looking at the big picture. Your request to compete while retooling would hold water, if we had something to work with. Sure Bay and Nady made it fun to watch, but even in all of their greatness, we still didn't match up. Would you have felt better if we went 81-83? Still a losing season in the books.

Problem with your logic is that most teams have backup plans for their backup plans in the minors. If we were a team that drafted well, and made sound trades over the years, the loss of Bay would have gave way to another young talent on the verge of stardom. Littlefield all but eliminated that with his destructive reign on this organization.

So you think for fan experience value, we should have kept Nady and Bay for the remainder of the year? So their trade value would go down in the offseason, or better yet, we just straight lose them to free agency with no compensation? Nady, even IF he returned to form next year, has Boras as his agent, fat chance the Pirates would be at the top of his short list.

Let NH and FC build a solid organization and I will bet that we will still be competing as we retool in the years to come.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:04 pm 
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"Would you have felt better if we went 81-83? Still a losing season in the books."

Fair question. Now, the answer, especially when you compare it to what I have seen the last several weeks.


Dam right I would.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:12 pm 
I'm OK with the trades they made, especially the Bay trade. But I think it's important to remember the team could have spent some money and locked up one or the other, signed a pitcher or two and been competitive without tearing it down. I'm not necessarily advocating that, but acting like this rebuilding was the "only" way to get better isn't true. It's the only way the Pirates were WILLING to attempt to get better.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
But I think it's important to remember the team could have spent some money and locked up one or the other, signed a pitcher or two and been competitive without tearing it down.


Well then lets hear it, Elmer. Put a price on Bay and Nady. Tell us how much you would spend on a pitcher or two. Its one thing to say "Spend some money", its another to see how realistic it is.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:38 pm 
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
But I think it's important to remember the team could have spent some money and locked up one or the other, signed a pitcher or two and been competitive without tearing it down.


Well then lets hear it, Elmer. Put a price on Bay and Nady. Tell us how much you would spend on a pitcher or two. Its one thing to say "Spend some money", its another to see how realistic it is.


Why? I'm not advocating signing them. My point was that there is a perception by many on this board that unloading them was the ONLY way to go, which is not true. Viewing the world through NH-tinted glasses.

I happen to like the Bay trade very much. The Nady trade not as much but not DL-like.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:53 pm 
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Elmer wrote:
BBF wrote:
Elmer wrote:
But I think it's important to remember the team could have spent some money and locked up one or the other, signed a pitcher or two and been competitive without tearing it down.


Well then lets hear it, Elmer. Put a price on Bay and Nady. Tell us how much you would spend on a pitcher or two. Its one thing to say "Spend some money", its another to see how realistic it is.


Why? I'm not advocating signing them. My point was that there is a perception by many on this board that unloading them was the ONLY way to go, which is not true. Viewing the world through NH-tinted glasses.

I happen to like the Bay trade very much. The Nady trade not as much but not DL-like.


When Tabata makes an impact at the ML level, trading away an aging late bloomer with Boras as an agent will be almost non-existent in everyone's mind. The only mention of Nady will be, "Wow, Nady and Marte were all you had to get rid of to get Tabata."

Keeping Bay and signing another veteran, washed up pitcher may have helped for this season, but then ultimately we would have to start the process of this season over again next year. And that is, getting more talent to stock the minors. I am very happy that the Pirates have decided to retool/rebuild starting now. The invariably stopped drinking the KoolAid, realized that the team they had was not going to get it done, began the retooling process. I honestly believe NH and FC knew at the beginning of the season that they had to clean house(so to speak), but at least gave most of the guys the benefit of a half season to prove otherwise. Guys here are complaining about losing Bautista, hey, that guy had a shot to grab hold of the starting 3B position, but he failed. There wasn't any room for him on the team.

It is this kind of "weeding" out so to say that I think we all missed during previous GM's tenures. Players seemed to always have a job here in Pittsburgh, so they didn't have to try too hard. Now, thankfully, if you don't perform, or are not part of the future, your gone.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Additionally about Tabata, you must not forget, the Yankees are going to severely downplay what Tabata meant to them. Trash him and his attitude in the media, etc. They know that they gave up a talent, they are just hoping that it doesn't pan out for the Bucs.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
"Would you have felt better if we went 81-83? Still a losing season in the books."

Fair question. Now, the answer, especially when you compare it to what I have seen the last several weeks.


Dam right I would.

That sort of short-term thinking is what got this team where it is now. The "Drive for 75" mentality must stop.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:10 pm 
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There are two ways that the Pirates can get better:

1. Drastically increase payroll and sign a bunch of high priced veterans. This is never going to happen. Please stop whining that the owners won't spend money on the team. It's like complaining that the sun comes up in the east. You just sound dumb commenting on it at all. That leaves...

2. Do what the Rays, Tigers, and Brewers did and rebuild from the bottom up. Since Littlefield left the farm system devoid of any talent whatsoever, this is going to take some time. But already there is more talent in the minors than there was a year ago.

Number 2 is really the only option available to the Pirates. When a run at .500 comes at the cost of acquiring key talent, I'll pass.

I will acknowledge disagreement with the timing of the Bay and Nady trades, although I thought the Bay haul was pretty good. Nady especially may have garnered a higher price in the offseason or next year. But the trades had to be made considering that both players were out the door after '09. A compensation draft pick is not nearly as valuable as the talent that can be acquired from a team desperate to stay in contention.

The standard response to this is, "Why would they have to be out the door? Why can't the owners just spend more to keep them?" To that, I will refer you back to Number 1.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:28 pm 
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Willton wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
"Would you have felt better if we went 81-83? Still a losing season in the books."

Fair question. Now, the answer, especially when you compare it to what I have seen the last several weeks.


Dam right I would.

That sort of short-term thinking is what got this team where it is now. The "Drive for 75" mentality must stop.


Actually, technically, that would be the "Drive for 81" mentality, no?

And, Willton, how would a team go 81-83 in a 162 game season?

:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:53 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Willton wrote:
Steve1118 wrote:
"Would you have felt better if we went 81-83? Still a losing season in the books."

Fair question. Now, the answer, especially when you compare it to what I have seen the last several weeks.


Dam right I would.

That sort of short-term thinking is what got this team where it is now. The "Drive for 75" mentality must stop.


Actually, technically, that would be the "Drive for 81" mentality, no?

And, Willton, how would a team go 81-83 in a 162 game season?

:mrgreen:

Indeed, I hadn't noticed that until now. Better ask PF13; he posed the original question. :)

I use "Drive for 75" because it was coined first to refer to DL's apparent goal while GM, and because it's catchier than "Drive for 81." The mentality, in any event, is the same: "I just want to be a little bit better than we are right now." It lowers the standard for success, and that, in my eyes, is unacceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:00 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
There are two ways that the Pirates can get better:

1. Drastically increase payroll and sign a bunch of high priced veterans. This is never going to happen. Please stop whining that the owners won't spend money on the team. It's like complaining that the sun comes up in the east. You just sound dumb commenting on it at all. That leaves...

2. Do what the Rays, Tigers, and Brewers did and rebuild from the bottom up. Since Littlefield left the farm system devoid of any talent whatsoever, this is going to take some time. But already there is more talent in the minors than there was a year ago.

Number 2 is really the only option available to the Pirates. When a run at .500 comes at the cost of acquiring key talent, I'll pass.

I will acknowledge disagreement with the timing of the Bay and Nady trades, although I thought the Bay haul was pretty good. Nady especially may have garnered a higher price in the offseason or next year. But the trades had to be made considering that both players were out the door after '09. A compensation draft pick is not nearly as valuable as the talent that can be acquired from a team desperate to stay in contention.

The standard response to this is, "Why would they have to be out the door? Why can't the owners just spend more to keep them?" To that, I will refer you back to Number 1.

The other reason for trading Nady and Bay for prospects is that by the time the Pirates have enough talent to compete for the playoffs, Nady and Bay will likely have outlived their usefulness. See Mike Sweeney, Richie Sexson, Dmitri Young, Jose Vidro, and Jason Kendall.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:43 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
Thanks. Maybe since I live here in Pittsburgh and not in Jersey City, I should take my opinions to the Mets message board where someone can tell me all about the Mets season, and I'll check the Mets boxscores from time to time and I should be good to go right?
All the information I should need to go on a message board act like I know what I'm talking about in regard to Met baseball, yes?


Just cuz the dude doesnt live near Pittsburgh doesn't mean he can't be a fan...and just because he's living in New Jersey doesn't make him a Mets fan, A Springsteen fan or Bon Jovi fan!!!

Come on, that was somewhat of a childish comment...

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:26 am 
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Steve1118 wrote:
Some of these guys think that we, the fans, are the SOB's because we would like a competitive team on the field, even while we develop prospects.

For them, it either win the World Series, or nothing. "Our goal is not to play .500 ball" is the mantra. So, I guess, under that reasoning, hypothetically, if we are solidly in third place next year, say 10 or 12 games out, we should trade the rest of the veterans we do have for some more "prospects". After all, how dare the fans be satisfied with a competitive team.

Admit it or not, with Bay and Nady in the lineup this team was fun to watch, and you knew that even if the club was behind late there was a possibility of a come from behind win. This past series is the underline of the entire deal.....in the beginning half of the year the buccos owned the Astros. They made their trades, and we made ours. It is easy to see how each one made out.

I love the buccos, but this "playing for next year" has gone on for far too long. And, I really don't think we are bad fans because we are tired of it. I have watched bucco baseball for forty plus years now, and resent being told to stay home because I am getting tired of the same old company line.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. You summed my feelings on the matter up perfectly in this post. I too would take something like 82-80 over this mess any day of the week.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:40 pm 
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omgardd wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree with you. You summed my feelings on the matter up perfectly in this post. I too would take something like 82-80 over this mess any day of the week.

Okay. Now, would you want an 82-80 record at the expense of not building for the future? Because if you hadn't noticed, there was nothing in the farm system prior to the trades, and if the Bucs were to actually reach an 82-80 record, it would have been due to sheer luck. With nothing in the farm system, there would have been no getting better than 82-80 next year. After that, the team likely would tank in 2010 due to the loss of Nady and Bay, and the Bucs would have nothing to show for it.

The only reason to keep Nady or Bay is if 82-80 is the end goal. If that's the case, then I have my doubts that you actually want to see the Pirates win a World Series.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:48 pm 
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Quote:
Indeed, I hadn't noticed that until now. Better ask PF13; he posed the original question. :)

I use "Drive for 75" because it was coined first to refer to DL's apparent goal while GM, and because it's catchier than "Drive for 81." The mentality, in any event, is the same: "I just want to be a little bit better than we are right now." It lowers the standard for success, and that, in my eyes, is unacceptable.


Damn... 16 years of education, 32 years of watching baseball, and I freakin blew the math...

Correction: 80-82... but my question still stands


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