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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:23 pm 
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You guys can sugarcoat this medicine all you want....there is light years difference in the play before the trades and after. You can quote stats and hypotheticals all you want, there is no comparison, if you are honest with yourself. Don't pea on my leg and tell me it's raining.

I am sure a couple of these "prospects" will pan out, if we are lucky, they may evolve into the equal of what we gave away in Bay and Nady. We may wind up with better pitching, and an equal infield. That's in a couple of years, if we are lucky.

You guys say it isn't the goal to play .500, well, right now I would settle for a franchise with a winning record. I think most would. You put some winning records together, get your mind right, and the playoffs will follow. But you've got to walk before you can run.

They can't blow it up anymore... there is nothing left to blow up. I do think the motives were pure....but we gave up a lot and may or may not have gotten much back. However, I think it stinks that they gave up on this year, and next, for fans who have sat through 16 years of this. They deserve better.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Steve1118, Omgardd, etc.........

I hate the losing as well, however, I have yet to hear any of you explain to me how Bay, Nady, and Marte would have fit into the rebuilding of this franchise. More specifically, assuming you keep those three, what would have been your plan moving forward to make this team competetive?

I'd really like to get a response to this question for once, it's been posed many times on this board, by different people, and a credible response still manages to allude it.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:35 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Steve1118, Omgardd, etc.........

I hate the losing as well, however, I have yet to hear any of you explain to me how Bay, Nady, and Marte would have fit into the rebuilding of this franchise. More specifically, assuming you keep those three, what would have been your plan moving forward to make this team competetive?

I'd really like to get a response to this question for once, it's been posed many times on this board, by different people, and a credible response still manages to allude it.


Oh god, I'm actually afraid of their answer.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:44 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Argentum wrote:
Steve1118, Omgardd, etc.........

I hate the losing as well, however, I have yet to hear any of you explain to me how Bay, Nady, and Marte would have fit into the rebuilding of this franchise. More specifically, assuming you keep those three, what would have been your plan moving forward to make this team competetive?

I'd really like to get a response to this question for once, it's been posed many times on this board, by different people, and a credible response still manages to allude it.


Oh god, I'm actually afraid of their answer.


We should have picked up Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens off the street when we traded Bay, Nady, and Marte...those guys are going to be Hall of Famers...maybe

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:16 pm 
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I understand everyone's frustrations with the losing, but Neal has put forth a blueprint of how he wants to build this organization...He just said the AAA manager and hitting coach are gone, and the AA manager is gone...The staff in State College are probably going to be gone too...

They have spents lots of $$$ of their academy, the draft, and Latin players...

They inherited a shitty shitty team, with no depth in the minors and have done a great job at adding depth to it...There will be no more Bullington-VanBenschoten players coming up in replacement of Gorzo and Snell...

They dumped useless weight- Matt Morris, and Kim
They held up their accountibility by sending Paulino and Gorzo to the minors
They have options now at some positions with Cruz and LaRoche and Walker, and Pearce and Moss
They have prospects now with Lincoln,the McCutchens, Walker, Olendorff, and Tabata
They rolled the dice on Doumit as Catcher and Nate as an everyday Centerfielder

The goal is to make the playoffs and win a World Series, its not to be .500...

By the time all the pieces were in place for this team to be a winning team, Nady and Bay would have left via free agency and the team would have nothing to show for it...

Finally after 16 years, the organization is making smart moves not over paying for marginal free agents, finding some smart low risk free agents, while rebuilding the depth of the minors...

the darkest hour is right before the dawn, and the this team is close to turning the page, and sadly it means setting a record for losing consecutive seasons...oh well its just a number...

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:18 pm 
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Steve1118 wrote:
You guys can sugarcoat this medicine all you want....there is light years difference in the play before the trades and after. You can quote stats and hypotheticals all you want, there is no comparison, if you are honest with yourself. Don't pea on my leg and tell me it's raining.


So in other words, you're saying that we can rely on actual evidence, but you'll ignore it and stick to your ill-informed opinions. Free country, I suppose.

Steve1118 wrote:
I am sure a couple of these "prospects" will pan out, if we are lucky, they may evolve into the equal of what we gave away in Bay and Nady. We may wind up with better pitching, and an equal infield. That's in a couple of years, if we are lucky.


And in a couple years Bay and Nady would have been gone anyway.

Steve1118 wrote:
You guys say it isn't the goal to play .500, well, right now I would settle for a franchise with a winning record. I think most would. You put some winning records together, get your mind right, and the playoffs will follow. But you've got to walk before you can run.


How many examples do I have to show of teams with losing records the year before they made a playoff run? You are just dead wrong. Please, PLEASE stop the "walk before you can run" bull. It's just not true.

Steve1118 wrote:
They can't blow it up anymore... there is nothing left to blow up. I do think the motives were pure....but we gave up a lot and may or may not have gotten much back. However, I think it stinks that they gave up on this year, and next, for fans who have sat through 16 years of this. They deserve better.


What were they giving up on this year? A 90 loss season? That's what they were on pace to do before Bay and Nady got traded. I don't know who put it into your head that the Pirates were a good team before they left. They weren't. Maybe you thought they were because they were scoring a lot of runs and putting up pretty numbers on the score board. If all it takes to entertain you is scoring, go root for the Rangers.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:21 pm 
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nad69dan wrote:
The goal is to make the playoffs and win a World Series, its not to be .500...



I would add that the goal is to have SUSTAINABLE success, measured by reaching the playoffs and winning championships, not to go "all in" at the expense of the next decade.

Other than that, great post.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:26 pm 
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BBF wrote:
nad69dan wrote:
The goal is to make the playoffs and win a World Series, its not to be .500...



I would add that the goal is to have SUSTAINABLE success, measured by reaching the playoffs and winning championships, not to go "all in" at the expense of the next decade.

Other than that, great post.


Yes, I missed that, I meant to make it, but got carried away on other points...

It is definitely a goal, and throwing it all in for one magical run defeats the purpose...

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:35 pm 
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BBF wrote:
Other than that, great post.


I'll second that.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
BBF wrote:
Other than that, great post.


I'll second that.


Word!


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:20 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
Steve1118, Omgardd, etc.........

I hate the losing as well, however, I have yet to hear any of you explain to me how Bay, Nady, and Marte would have fit into the rebuilding of this franchise. More specifically, assuming you keep those three, what would have been your plan moving forward to make this team competetive?

I'd really like to get a response to this question for once, it's been posed many times on this board, by different people, and a credible response still manages to allude it.


This post needs stickied... I want this question answered!! I've asked it numerous times.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:04 pm 
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There's usually a good reason that a question gets ignored on the other side of a debate, which is that there's no good answer for it.

Bay and Nady were both gone after 2009, which means the Pirates would have to be competitive next year in order to make keeping them worth while; after that, both of them would be gone with nothing in return. And there has been no indication this year that the Pirates are going to be close to competing with the big boys of the NL Central next year as evidenced by their record against the Cubs and Brewers BOTH before AND after Bay/Nady.

The only thing I disagreed with was the Nady trade. I was really underwhelmed by what they got for him, but hopefully Tabata shows me I'm wrong. I would rather the Pirates have kept him and dealt him in the offseason or crossed their fingers and hoped he hit well in the first half next year. I still feel like we let the Yankees off the hook a bit...they were desperate and I don't think we made them hurt as much as we should have, especially considering that get Nady for another season.

I still maintain they got a great haul for Bay. They weren't going to do any better than that in the offseason or next year. It was painful as hell to see him go, but that's where the Pirates are.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:36 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
The only thing I disagreed with was the Nady trade. I was really underwhelmed by what they got for him, but hopefully Tabata shows me I'm wrong. I would rather the Pirates have kept him and dealt him in the offseason or crossed their fingers and hoped he hit well in the first half next year. I still feel like we let the Yankees off the hook a bit...they were desperate and I don't think we made them hurt as much as we should have, especially considering that get Nady for another season.


I would use NH's trade deadline acumen with Bay, and also how the Alvarez signing went down, as evidence that we probably got all that we were going to get for Nady. So far this group doesn't appear to the kind of group that leaves money on the table. I have to think that if there was a better haul to be had, it would have been had.

I'm of the impression that there were (still are for that matter) two trains of thought circulating around Nady:

1 - A career year that won't be repeated
2 - His true ability finally showing

Of the two, it's probable that most GMs were of the former opinion. Or they were at least holding it against NH to depress Nady's true market value. Otherwise NH may have been able to upgrade over a guy like Karstens.

As an aside, Marte is getting smacked around pretty good, and Nady, after a white hot start with the bombers, has been very old school Nady the past month. Of course, only time will tell..........


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
jaybee24 wrote:
The only thing I disagreed with was the Nady trade. I was really underwhelmed by what they got for him, but hopefully Tabata shows me I'm wrong. I would rather the Pirates have kept him and dealt him in the offseason or crossed their fingers and hoped he hit well in the first half next year. I still feel like we let the Yankees off the hook a bit...they were desperate and I don't think we made them hurt as much as we should have, especially considering that get Nady for another season.


I would use NH's trade deadline acumen with Bay, and also how the Alvarez signing went down, as evidence that we probably got all that we were going to get for Nady. So far this group doesn't appear to the kind of group that leaves money on the table. I have to think that if there was a better haul to be had, it would have been had.

I'm of the impression that there were (still are for that matter) two trains of thought circulating around Nady:

1 - A career year that won't be repeated
2 - His true ability finally showing

Of the two, it's probable that most GMs were of the former opinion. Or they were at least holding it against NH to depress Nady's true market value. Otherwise NH may have been able to upgrade over a guy like Karstens.

As an aside, Marte is getting smacked around pretty good, and Nady, after a white hot start with the bombers, has been very old school Nady the past month. Of course, only time will tell..........


You could be absolutely right...maybe NH did the smart thing, realizing that he'd never get this much for Nady again, and realizing that maybe this was Nady's peak. My measure of evaluating a trade by how much you make the other team hurt is completely unscientific. However, had NH rolled the dice and had Nady continued to hit with the Pirates, I think they could have gotten more this offseason for him.

I'm not as low on the trade as I originally was, Tabata tearing up AA ball has helped with that.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:06 pm 
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jaybee24 wrote:
However, had NH rolled the dice and had Nady continued to hit with the Pirates, I think they could have gotten more this offseason for him.


I can't argue against that logic. I was just throwing in my 2¢.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:27 pm 
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Neal was in a nice position at the deadline having 2 similar players to deal...

I believe he used Nady to set the bar, and when the Yankees nabbed him, that just increased Bay's value in the AL East, as to not let the Yankees get more fire power than the Red Sox or the Rays...

Nady set the table and Bay drove it home...

8 players for 3, all of whom were gone after next season...And those 8 guys are locked up for a long time

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I say keep the $50 and ban him anyway...

For those jumping ship, we'll keep the bandwagon warm for you...


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Very well said guys. The only problem I have with any of the argument for the current direction is from BBF. I agree with the thought but not your choice of words to describe it.

SUSTAINABLE success sounds just too much like the present Washington words for their war. Please, that's not baseball stuff.

BTW, I much enjoy reading BBF and your thoughts on the board.

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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:54 pm 
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Substitute2 wrote:
SUSTAINABLE success sounds just too much like the present Washington words for their war.


Perhaps it's best to leave the political jabs in the "Water Cooler" forum?

Substitute2 wrote:
Please, that's not baseball stuff.


Precisely my point.


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:50 am 
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That's precisely my thought.

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2011 Will Be Our Year -- well make that 2012 (just saying) So it looks like 2013 now - how long must this go on!
THIS IS IT-- NO MORE STREAK!!! *** Finally*** Time to win it in 2014


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 Post subject: Re: What a difference a month makes?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:21 am 
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I never said anything about wishing we never traded Nady, Bay and Marte, I think if guys like Tabata, A. McCutchen, Morris, and even Alvarez work out here, we might have something.... in 5 years.

That said I'm frustrated with THIS team, the here and now 2008 and probably what will be the 2009 Pirates. I didn't expect two trades to turn us into the Washington Nationals in a matter of a week, lets face it they suck. They're getting blown out 5 nights out of 7, they might win once and week and lose a close game the other day of the week, and nobody, nobody can tell me that the players haven't quit on the season.

I understand that we're not going to have a chance at being a playoff team until maybe 2010 or 2011, but I can't take a time machine to 2011 and watch the Pirates compete, and being a Pittsburgher, unfortunately I have to watch them next season, so why don't one of you homers who blast me for having the nerve to question the Pirates heart give me a reason to be optimistic about the 2009 Pirates because I see none.

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